OK Supreme Court: Ten Commandments Monument Must Be Removed From Capitol

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So the Supreme Court, in your opinion may recognize and promote all religions?

Recognition and promotion are two entirely different actions.


Self edit.

If placing the 10 Commandments on public view in a courthouse is promotion of a religion according to the courts.

The placing any and all religious writings or symbols in public view in a courthouse is by default and consistent logic, the promotion of a religion. Therefore, to be consistent and fair and just to all, all religious writings or symbols in public view in or around a courthouse should be removed. To do otherwise is, according to the logic of the courts, promotion of religion.

So the Supreme Court building must be totally remodeled and have all those sayings chiseled off and all symbols, ancient and modern of religion removed. Because the court itself said that simply having the religious symbol of the 10 Commandments in view of the public in a court setting is promotion of religion. Can't have one stand without the other, it is inconsistent, unfair and unjust.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

I still don't understand your point. Even if the nation was founded on Christians principles, by Christians, we still have the separation of church and state.

To have the 10 commandments plastered on the halls of government means that we have to have something from ALL religions on display as well, or we are respecting one religion over all others.

What if I start my own religion? Can I have a spot on the wall as well? See the slippery-slope here?

originally posted by: grandmakdw
If placing the 10 Commandments on public view in a courthouse is promotion of a religion according to the courts.

Because it is there ALONE, without any context.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I don't care what it symbolizes. If we start down that road of removing everything that offends us, then we will have to remove everything. Someone will always be offended.

Offense is subjective. The best approach is to just have these discussions and let the losers be miserable until they can think up a better argument to overturn the decision. It's not like we can ever establish an objective measure of what is and isn't an offensive symbol. But the fact remains, there ARE some symbols that at the very least, shouldn't be in government buildings.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

Well 501(c)3 status is a privilege, not a right. It is a privilege with SPECIFIC rules regarding making sure the organization isn't political. So if a church wants to preach from the pulpit, they should give up the tax-exempt status. It's not like they'd be shut down or anything.

They should dump the 501(c) for churches and churches should want to do it. Then fight on other grounds, which as been done before in court that the church shouldn't have to pay taxes, nor should the press it they are not engaging in commercial enterprise.

The church as been operating under this for so long their constitutional fighting skills have atrophied.

For example you cant shut a press down for not paying taxes when the are not engaged in advertisement or using the right of press to make money.

Cant have separation if the state is collecting taxes.

True, paying taxes subjects one to the IRS.

Which we all know has targeted those who disagree with the government for persecution and oppression.

That would make the churches subject to being singled out for persecution and oppression and interference by the government and would clearly violate separating the government from religion.

Yes even placing the church under an IRS standing 501c is unconstitutional....."Make no law regarding the establishment of religion". And that in the context of the first which includes the press.......The amendment is wholly political and about political speech. Cant separate a church or the press for its political beliefs.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: grandmakdw

I am for the fair promotion of religion in government. Which means that the government promotes ALL religions equally or promotes no religions at all. There is no in between.

I say no religion promotion at all....just respect the 1st amendment...."free exercise thereof"

If we did that, then it would be illegal for state sponsored schools to teach religious history.

Religion generally wants it to be if it is not something positive about their religion. If it is positive then it must be taught.

See Creationism

There's a recurring trend I'm seeing anytime Christian tenets or monuments are struck down in government.

Gays can get married now? Ban ALL marriage. Yes, this is already being drafted by several southern states.

The Ten Commandments have to go? ALL monuments have to go.

This whole mentality of throwing the baby out with the bathwater is juvenile.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

But the fact remains, there ARE some symbols that at the very least, shouldn't be in government buildings.

Agreed. I think the 10 commandments should come down or they should allow all religions to have a spot as well. I don't want it to come down because I am offended, I want them to recognize all religions , or none at all, to maintain the separation of church and state..

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: RedParrotHead
a reply to: theabsolutetruth


The U.S.A. is not a Christian country. If so everyone would have to be Christian and there would be punishable laws against doing non-Christian things. And those barbaric punishments would be straight out of the Christian Bible...right? What should be the sentence for those found guilty of working on a Sunday? A fine, jail time, or death? That sounds pretty close to what ISIS wants/is making. Do you really want to live in that sort of place? I don't.

Not so. England IS an Angelican nation. Yet there is no punishment or fines for being Jewish or muslim or atheist.

Um... England is JUST as secular as the United States. In fact, I think they are more secular... That was a pretty terrible comparison you made.

England estabkished a national religion. The Church of England and the monarch is the head of the church (hence the title Defender of the Faith). So it is an Angelican nation.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

The Christian right has behaved like this for awhile now. Can't have a Republican President? No legislation can be passed whatsoever.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: grandmakdw

I am for the fair promotion of religion in government. Which means that the government promotes ALL religions equally or promotes no religions at all. There is no in between.

I say no religion promotion at all....just respect the 1st amendment...."free exercise thereof"

If we did that, then it would be illegal for state sponsored schools to teach religious history.

Umm, last I checked it is illegal for state sponsored schools to teach religious history.

My daughter and sister are elementary school teachers,
not only are they forbidden from teaching religious history -
they are forbidden from putting up an easter or christmas symbols
at all in their classrooms. They are forbidden from singing any
and all traditional Christmas songs that have even the slightest
reference to religion.

When I taught in univeristy
I would have been fired for even the slightest mention
of religion or religious tradition or religious history
when I taught marriage, parenting, or human development.

The only allowable place to teach Christian religious history
in public schools/university is
in a class specifically designated as a religous history course.

All other references subject the teacher/professor to censure or firing.

It is illegal to reference, speak of, or have any symbol even slightly related to Christianity in any public school or University that I know of. Even Christmas trees are banned in many if not most public schools in the US.

The elementary schools are allowed to celebrate
Valentines Day (which does have Christian orgins, I admit)
any Muslim holiday or reference to a Muslim holiday

As far as I know even Dradle,Dradle is forbidden in elementary schools
as is all mention of Jewish history, except for the Holocaust.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Krazysh0t

But the fact remains, there ARE some symbols that at the very least, shouldn't be in government buildings.

Agreed. I think the 10 commandments should come down or they should allow all religions to have a spot as well. I don't want it to come down because I am offended, I want them to recognize all religions , or none at all, to maintain the separation of church and state..

That has been my argument here this entire time. This issue isn't about offense, it was carried slightly off topic when the flag issue was brought up. So I can see if you may have gotten confused about my intentions.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth

Silly PC nonsense, it will bite them back. I have written plenty about my opinions on Christianity but it is the basis of American laws, and America is a Christian nation.

This is in no way silly or PC or nonsense and is getting truly tedious, disgusting, and embarrassing. Government is secular. All religions need to stay out of it and it out of all religions. All. Full stop.

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: RedParrotHead
a reply to: theabsolutetruth


The U.S.A. is not a Christian country. If so everyone would have to be Christian and there would be punishable laws against doing non-Christian things. And those barbaric punishments would be straight out of the Christian Bible...right? What should be the sentence for those found guilty of working on a Sunday? A fine, jail time, or death? That sounds pretty close to what ISIS wants/is making. Do you really want to live in that sort of place? I don't.

Not so. England IS an Angelican nation. Yet there is no punishment or fines for being Jewish or muslim or atheist.

Um... England is JUST as secular as the United States. In fact, I think they are more secular... That was a pretty terrible comparison you made.

England estabkished a national religion. The Church of England and the monarch is the head of the church (hence the title Defender of the Faith). So it is an Angelican nation.

Yes, established. Past tense. That isn't the case anymore. What do you still live in the 1600's or something?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock
They should dump the 501(c) for churches and churches should want to do it. Then fight on other grounds, which as been done before in court that the church shouldn't have to pay taxes, nor should the press it they are not engaging in commercial enterprise.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that churches don't have to pay taxes. It just says that you are free to practice your religion no matter what it is.

The church as been operating under this for so long their constitutional fighting skills have atrophied.

The church appears to still be QUITE good at fighting the Constitution. Why else did it take so long for gay marriage to FINALLY be legalized?

For example you cant shut a press down for not paying taxes when the are not engaged in advertisement or using the right of press to make money.

The press pays taxes though... As well as there are no stipulations in the Constitution saying that the press doesn't have to pay taxes either.

Cant have separation if the state is collecting taxes.

Why not? Collecting taxes is collecting taxes. I wasn't aware that it was part of the Christian religion to not pay taxes.

Its way more complicated than that. Church can argue that giving in church is part of the "free expression". State has no more right to their money and they do free speech or free exercise. The position here is constitutionally guarded.

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: RedParrotHead
a reply to: theabsolutetruth


The U.S.A. is not a Christian country. If so everyone would have to be Christian and there would be punishable laws against doing non-Christian things. And those barbaric punishments would be straight out of the Christian Bible...right? What should be the sentence for those found guilty of working on a Sunday? A fine, jail time, or death? That sounds pretty close to what ISIS wants/is making. Do you really want to live in that sort of place? I don't.

Not so. England IS an Angelican nation. Yet there is no punishment or fines for being Jewish or muslim or atheist.

Um... England is JUST as secular as the United States. In fact, I think they are more secular... That was a pretty terrible comparison you made.

England estabkished a national religion. The Church of England and the monarch is the head of the church (hence the title Defender of the Faith). So it is an Angelican nation.

That's actually the church where I go.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Unfortunately we do not have separation of religion and state here in the UK but it is coming.

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: TheSemiSkeptic

Yes, the treaty is a statement of governance, not culture.

The topic of this thread is governance, not culture (a government building, to be precise)

Obviously, you can feel free to discuss culture. I was just wanting to point out that culture was neither part of the topic of the thread, nor the post you were replying to.

My statement of, "America is absolutely not a Christian nation." is accurate, as evidenced by and in context to the Treaty of Tripoli.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
There's a recurring trend I'm seeing anytime Christian tenets or monuments are struck down in government.

Gays can get married now? Ban ALL marriage. Yes, this is already being drafted by several southern states.

The Ten Commandments have to go? ALL monuments have to go.

This whole mentality of throwing the baby out with the bathwater is juvenile.

Well the problem with your argument is that it has been clearly demonstrated by many that the only symbols and icons they want out are christian.

The only way one can argue for tossing out christian icons is to toss them all out.....otherwise you look like a bigot.

originally posted by: Logarock
Well the problem with your argument is that it has been clearly demonstrated by many that the only symbols and icons they want out are christian.

Can you point to where Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist symbolism was placed or requested to be placed on public grounds without incorporation of other religious symbols?