OK Supreme Court: Ten Commandments Monument Must Be Removed From Capitol

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: grandmakdw

You remain confused...

SCOTUS did not demand the 10 Commandments be removed from the Capitol Grounds...

The Oklahoma Supreme Court did...and their ruling was based on the Oklahoma State Constitution NOT Federal law.

SCOTUS has actually allowed a similar monument to stand on the Texas State Grounds...but the history and the context spoke to a non-secular message...it had been their 40 years without complaint, was donated by a non-secular org and was among 30+ other monuments in a park of varying themes and messages...thus SCOTUS determined that 10 Comm. display to be "predominately non-secular".

SCOTUS ruling on Texas Display
en.wikipedia.org...

Oklahoma Supreme Court Ruling
www.oscn.net...

That is inconsistent.

The 10 Commandments can not be deemed to be religious in one setting,
and then deemed secular in another setting.

Sure they can?


Unless someone finds the Ark of the Covenant and pulls the original 10 Comm. out..then I might agree with you.

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: grandmakdw

You remain confused...

SCOTUS did not demand the 10 Commandments be removed from the Capitol Grounds...

The Oklahoma Supreme Court did...and their ruling was based on the Oklahoma State Constitution NOT Federal law.

SCOTUS has actually allowed a similar monument to stand on the Texas State Grounds...but the history and the context spoke to a non-secular message...it had been their 40 years without complaint, was donated by a non-secular org and was among 30+ other monuments in a park of varying themes and messages...thus SCOTUS determined that 10 Comm. display to be "predominately non-secular".

SCOTUS ruling on Texas Display
en.wikipedia.org...

Oklahoma Supreme Court Ruling
www.oscn.net...

That is inconsistent.

The 10 Commandments can not be deemed to be religious in one setting,
and then deemed secular in another setting.

Unless someone finds the Ark of the Covenant and pulls the original 10 Comm. out..then I might agree with you.

Tell me where else the 10 Commandment were written,
in that order,
with those words
(same meaning in a different language acceptable)
before being found in deeply religious writings?
The Torah, the Koran, the Bible?
If you can find a secular precedent with those meanings
and in that order then you might have a point.

But they are originally from deeply religious writings
and "stolen" by secularists who claimed,
falsely that they have no religious meaning.

You don't need to see the "original" to believe
they are deeply religious laws and beliefs,
their presence in the Koran, the Torah and the Bible,
with no secular writings (I know of) of these laws before these
writings, make it clear the origin, intent, and
meaning of all the commandments, makes it clear
they are deeply religious and from religious sources.

The 10 Commandments are
firmly and undeniably deeply religious
and to be found first, in that order,
with the meaning identical
in deeply religious texts of the Torah, the Koran,
and the Bible. They are religious, not secular.
The roots are religious,
if someone claims they are secular, they are wrong.

The come from religious sources and not from
any secular source, however the secularists
may have adopted them as the basis for
law, but that does not make them secular
in any way shape or form.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Kromlech

Obviously further proof of the prosecution of the christians in this once great christian nation!

/sarc off.

For those that are against this ruling, would you be okay with any other religions monument on state capital grounds?

Just to keep things current, what would the outrage be if it was a muslim monument?

That's the stupidest comparison I've ever heard. It's like asking the Saudis to post the Ten Commandments out front of the Muslim Kings palace. Really? America is and has been a Christian nation since its founding over 200 years ago. Never, ever, has it been a Muslim nation. Our country was founded on the principles of Christianity while the Muslim religion has been a guest in our house, tolerated and accepted as another form of worship.

a reply to: Rezlooper

Really? America is and has been a Christian nation since its founding over 200 years ago. Never, ever, has it been a Muslim nation. Our country was founded on the principles of Christianity while the Muslim religion has been a guest in our house, tolerated and accepted as another form of worship.

No, it has NEVER been a Christian nation.
And it won't become one.
Ever. According to the Constitution.

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Kromlech

Obviously further proof of the prosecution of the christians in this once great christian nation!

/sarc off.

For those that are against this ruling, would you be okay with any other religions monument on state capital grounds?

Just to keep things current, what would the outrage be if it was a muslim monument?

That's the stupidest comparison I've ever heard. It's like asking the Saudis to post the Ten Commandments out front of the Muslim Kings palace. Really? America is and has been a Christian nation since its founding over 200 years ago. Never, ever, has it been a Muslim nation. Our country was founded on the principles of Christianity while the Muslim religion has been a guest in our house, tolerated and accepted as another form of worship.

Which history book did you get this information from? No history professor I'VE ever talked to says that it was founded as a Christian nation. Everyone I talk to who has actually STUDIED the matter and isn't just spouting a bunch of insane drivel says the country was founded as a secular nation to prevent ANY religion from taking over and establishing their will on the populace.

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Kromlech

Obviously further proof of the prosecution of the christians in this once great christian nation!

/sarc off.

For those that are against this ruling, would you be okay with any other religions monument on state capital grounds?

Just to keep things current, what would the outrage be if it was a muslim monument?

That's the stupidest comparison I've ever heard. It's like asking the Saudis to post the Ten Commandments out front of the Muslim Kings palace. Really? America is and has been a Christian nation since its founding over 200 years ago. Never, ever, has it been a Muslim nation. Our country was founded on the principles of Christianity while the Muslim religion has been a guest in our house, tolerated and accepted as another form of worship.

Actually the Muslims believe in the 10 Commandments
as a part of their religion, I was corrected earlier on that point.
I had forgotten to include the Muslims in religions that believe in the 10 Commandments.

I am a Christian,
I believe that our country was founded by Christian men,
using Christian principals, however,
first and foremost it was founded to protect the right of
everyone to worship as they please.

No religion is a guest,
or to be just tolerated,
we are all equal under the founding of the nation,

to worship as we please without interference
from the Government
(which is being violated in my opinion now).

Nonetheless, all religions are equal under the founding of the US government and under the constitution.

To say what you did is quite wrong
and gives the rest of us Christians
a bad name and makes people think
the rest of the Christians are like
your statement,
bigoted and ugly and hateful.
Your statement defiles the name
of Christ and tarnishes the reputation
of other Christians.
You should apologize and pray for forgiveness.

a reply to: grandmakdw

but I believe that our country was founded by Christian men,
using Christian principals

You can believe whatever you like, but you are still wrong.

And make no mistake - if enough Holy-Rollers get into office, they will try to make it so, and the blowback will be exponentially WORSE than it is now. There IS NO WAY it would be allowed to happen. Every member of Congress and the President himself would be thrown out. Recalled. Impeached.

It simply is not going to happen, no matter how much you squawk that "Christians are being persecuted!". You can do it every five minutes for the rest of your life, and it won't help you. You can call it out all you want, you can accuse others of being bigoted, judgmental, intolerant, ignorant, whatever you want...but you'll still be wrong, and shut down.

Maybe Christianity should just cut its losses and suck it up. CHRISTIANS DO NOT RUN OR OWN THIS COUNTRY.
Period.

Y'all are just mad because you aren't glorified by everyone else because of your blind glorification of your antiquated and erroneous glorious book.


It seems, grandma, that you are sick of other Christians making "you" look bad. I applaud your efforts to silence them, because you are right - they are besmirching ALL OF YOU, but you all allow it by electing them, and then acting surprised when everyone else says, "No. We don't want this to be a Christian nation, and HERE IS WHY. And neither did the founding fathers, and THIS IS WHY."

originally posted by: grandmakdw

I am a Christian,
I believe that our country was founded by Christian men,
using Christian principals, however,
first and foremost it was founded to protect the right of
everyone to worship as they please.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

Deist is not Christian.

Our nation is founded on the principals of English Common Law, which originates from pagan Anglo Saxons and predates Christianities influence in the Isles by centuries (if not millenia).

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

but I believe that our country was founded by Christian men,
using Christian principals

You can believe whatever you like, but you are still wrong.

And make no mistake - if enough Holy-Rollers get into office, they will try to make it so, and the blowback will be exponentially WORSE than it is now. There IS NO WAY it would be allowed to happen. Every member of Congress and the President himself would be thrown out. Recalled. Impeached.

It simply is not going to happen, no matter how much you squawk that "Christians are being persecuted!". You can do it every five minutes for the rest of your life, and it won't help you. You can call it out all you want, you can accuse others of being bigoted, judgmental, intolerant, ignorant, whatever you want...but you'll still be wrong, and shut down.

Maybe Christianity should just cut its losses and suck it up. CHRISTIANS DO NOT RUN OR OWN THIS COUNTRY.
Period.

Y'all are just mad because you aren't glorified by all because of your glorification of your glorious book.

Did you even bother to read my scolding to the person who claimed to be Christian?

That person is as intolerant and bigoted as those who
lump all Christians into the category I would call
equivalent to the "n" word in meaning and connotation.
Both are wrong.
This person is fringe and deserved to be scolded
for their bigoted remarks.

I will not recant the origin of our country.
Nor will I recant that one of the major reasons for it's founding was freedom OF religion.
For everyone to be allowed to freely worship as they please without interference from the government.
For everyone to have the right to think freely and to speak freely without fear of retribution from the government.

You misread by statement, because in the past you and I have had deep disagreements. But please don't make the mistake I did with previously in this thread of not reading a post carefully and just blowing up because you have had previous dealings with a member, and so rather than read the post make unfair and unjust assumptions.

I never once said I thought the country should be governed from the Bible, that was your own projection and hope and fantasy of what you think I would say, or you think I believe. I did not say, nor imply that, nor believe that. I believe in the Constitution as the way the country should be run, the way it was written and the basis for running our country.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Did you even bother to read my scolding to the person who claimed to be Christian?

Yes I did, obviously. I even applauded your efforts to call out the rabble-rousers who tarnish the image of all of you.

I will not recant the origin of our country.

But you'll make it up?

It is NOT a Christian country. Sorry you don't like it. It was at its very inception established as a SECULAR country, since day one.
I was thinking maybe with all your recent apologies to those you attack routinely, that maybe you received a nasty blow to the head and it knocked some latent ability to see straight into you - like percussive maintenance on a misbehaving piece of electronic equipment (bang on it, and see if that helps) - now I see it was just lip service.....

I believe in the Constitution as the way the country should be run, the way it was written and the basis for running our country.

Okay, then. Stop claiming it was started as a Christian nation, because it wasn't.
And yes, I read your posts. ALL of them, to EVERYONE on this thread.
I was even thinking of extending an olive branch for your seeming reconciliations...but - meh.
/shrug

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Kromlech

Obviously further proof of the prosecution of the christians in this once great christian nation!

/sarc off.

For those that are against this ruling, would you be okay with any other religions monument on state capital grounds?

Just to keep things current, what would the outrage be if it was a muslim monument?

That's the stupidest comparison I've ever heard. It's like asking the Saudis to post the Ten Commandments out front of the Muslim Kings palace. Really? America is and has been a Christian nation since its founding over 200 years ago. Never, ever, has it been a Muslim nation. Our country was founded on the principles of Christianity while the Muslim religion has been a guest in our house, tolerated and accepted as another form of worship.

America is not a christian nation

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

Did you even bother to read my scolding to the person who claimed to be Christian?

Yes I did, obviously. I even applauded your efforts to call out the rabble-rousers who tarnish the image of all of you.

I will not recant the origin of our country.

But you'll make it up?

It is NOT a Christian country. Sorry you don't like it. It was at its very inception established as a SECULAR country, since day one.
I was thinking maybe with all your recent apologies to those you attack routinely, that maybe you received a nasty blow to the head and it knocked some latent ability to see straight into you - like percussive maintenance on a misbehaving piece of electronic equipment (bang on it, and see if that helps) - now I see it was just lip service.....

I never said it was a Christian country.

I said it was founded by Christian people, it was.

I said it was founded using Christian principals, it was.

I said I believe in the Constitution and it should be the US guiding document, not the Bible.

I also believe that on ATS way too many people
use the word "Christian" in the same way people use the "N" word,
and I will fight that kind of intolerance, hatred, bigotry and prejudice, and won't stop.

I also believe that on ATS when a fringe weirdo
behaves badly in the name of Christ,
I have the same obligation to call them on their behavior
as also being intolerant, hateful and bigoted,
and besmirching the name of Christ and Christians.

Both are wrong in my opinion,
and I will continue to point out intolerance,
bigotry, prejudice and incitement to hatred
wherever I see it and from whomever I see it
when it comes to Christians.

I believe Christians deserve the same respect
as everyone else,
although I think most on ATS disagree.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I said it was founded by Christian people, it was.

I said it was founded using Christian principals, it was.

But .....

no, it wasn't.

a reply to: grandmakdw

A nation of Christians != Christian nation.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Not sure what all that was about..You claimed it was impossible for the 10 Commandments to be displayed in a non-secular context.

I direct you to Mel Brooks at the top of the page...was that comedy or church?

Comedy, art, Architecture, History...et al. I can appreciate a great religious themed painting without pondering Christianity and can appreciate great architecture with religious themed sculptures without needing to contemplate Jesus's dying for our sins etc.

Yes, context matters.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

I said it was founded by Christian people, it was.

I said it was founded using Christian principals, it was.

But .....

no, it wasn't.

Well then we disagree.

It is ok to disagree.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

I said it was founded by Christian people, it was.

I said it was founded using Christian principals, it was.

But .....

no, it wasn't.

You can disagree, sure.

2+2=5. It isn't 4. I disagree- it's OK to disagree.

Well then we disagree.

It is ok to disagree.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Well then we disagree.

It is ok to disagree.

I guess, if that's what you want to call it. You are mistaken. I am not.
But okay. You can stay wrong and continue to disagree with the facts.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

Well then we disagree.

It is ok to disagree.

I guess, if that's what you want to call it. You are mistaken. I am not.
But okay. You can stay wrong and continue to disagree with the facts.

VAPID, and lacking class.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You can disagree all you want about this, you are still wrong. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. History is very clear on this matter. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter how much you may want to say it is 3.