OK Supreme Court: Ten Commandments Monument Must Be Removed From Capitol

a reply to: NavyDoc

This issue isn't about offense (at least not to me), it's about obeying the Constitution. The ten commandments doesn't actually offend me; I just don't care about them. I just want the Constitution adhered to. We need to achieve the TRULY secular government that our founding fathers envisioned, and that means we even have to address the little things like this monument.

a reply to: NavyDoc

It's not even a matter of being "offended." It's the endless babbling and arguing about this that annoys the living hell outta me, arguments for no reason that will never have any winners, just whiners on all sides, arguments the writers of our Constitution probably tried to nip in the bud, bit alas to no avail.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, and they're going to spread all kinds of fear mongering as their boat sinks. Fear is an incredibly powerful weapon and motivator. Fear brings people together and mobilizes people in ways other emotions can't.

Is it just me or does the Democratic part seem almost "centrist" these days when compared to the Republican party? The conservatives have gotten so extremely right-wing in the last 8 years since Obama that mainstream Democrats seem ... well, almost "middle of the road".

Sure, there are some really whacked-out left-wing types, but the majority of mainstream Democrat politicians seem almost middle of the road by comparison today.

I don't think this is just coincidence. When a group of people feels threatened they tend to draw themselves closer together and unite under emotionally powerful ideologies. The right-wing conservatives/Christians are becoming more extreme in their views in order to mobilize as many of their followers as possible -- this includes the fear mongering I mentioned earlier.

As they continue to loose power, we're going to see crazier and crazier things said. Many people who once considered themselves right-of-center are going to have to choose whether or not to drink the Republican Kool-Aid and go headfirst into radicalism.

Yup, that's what's happening. Christians are becoming radicalized in this country due to their shrinking political influence. It's not pretty, and it's only helping turn more and more people away from their congregations.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: introvert

Of course. They bring it on themselves. The gay marriage issue, the abortion issue, the creationism taught in schools issue are all examples of Christians trying to unfairly push themselves and their beliefs onto others then acting all surprised and feigning persecution when they get staunch blow back.

That pretty much sums it up.

A government that defends the freedom for it's people to believe in whatever god they choose or no god at all and love and marry who they choose etc. should be something that any Christian secure in their faith should cherish and to be fair many do.

I think those who have self-doubt in their faith and rather exploit a façade religious virtue for their own purposes (politics and greed) or general self-aggrandizement are the ones who advocate religious beliefs mixing with government.

Put another way I don't think it is a coincidence that Senator Larry Craig, loudly opposed to gay marriage, get's caught soliciting sex with a man in an airport bathroom or that Evangelical mega-church leaders like Ted Haggard get busted with Male Prostitutes and Crystal Meth.

It is the humble Christians who quietly practice their faith that understand that mixing that faith with government comes to no good end for them or anyone else.

originally posted by: Logarock

Well considering that you pointed out the purposeful ambiguity of the term God on federal reserve issues, and in this context certainly, you got some gall trying to rake truth because she/he holds it like every other religion as talking about their God.

Why would someone's PERSONAL interpretation be used to force it upon others?

Do you not even understand at the most simplistic level how the First Amendment functions?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Well when you try to rewrite history with lies, I'm going to call you on it. The nation isn't a Christian nation. It ISN'T a theocracy no matter how much you believe it to be. Christians have just successfully pushed their religion into government where it doesn't belong in the past. Rulings like the OP are just fixing those mistakes.

The question is was it founded a christian nation......saying yes for the very large part is not a LIE. Anyone one coming here then would describe the culture as christian even if only in form. Thats an historical fact. I have only to point to Alexander de Tocqueville.

No, it wasn't founded as a Christian Nation. It was founded as a Nation of Christians. I already posted links earlier in the thread that went over this.

It was culturally christian, had the strong unavoidable flavor of Christianity. Cant get around that.

I personally never said, and boy do I get tired of saying that to you, that it was founded a Christian nation.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Well when you try to rewrite history with lies, I'm going to call you on it. The nation isn't a Christian nation. It ISN'T a theocracy no matter how much you believe it to be. Christians have just successfully pushed their religion into government where it doesn't belong in the past. Rulings like the OP are just fixing those mistakes.

The question is was it founded a christian nation......saying yes for the very large part is not a LIE. Anyone one coming here then would describe the culture as christian even if only in form. Thats an historical fact. I have only to point to Alexander de Tocqueville.

No, it wasn't founded as a Christian Nation. It was founded as a Nation of Christians. I already posted links earlier in the thread that went over this.

It was culturally christian, had the strong unavoidable flavor of Christianity. Cant get around that.

Hence why I said it was a nation of Christians.

I personally never said, and boy do I get tired of saying that to you, that it was founded a Christian nation.

Then why do you care so much about this monument being in front of a government building?

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Get a clue as to what secular means.

a reply to: Logarock

It wasn't officially founded as a Christian nation, but the founders had Christian roots and influences.

Even with that, they understood the dangerous of a Theocracy and the favoring of one religion over another in politics. This is why The Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment is so important.

This issue was so vitally important to our founders that they decided to make it the very FIRST amendment!

a reply to: Krazysh0t

We need to achieve the TRULY secular government that our founding fathers envisioned

Thats another issue where our founding fathers and their lack of vision is exposed.

Just look how great it has been for the middle east where gov't are allowed to intermingle with THEIR preferred religious taste. Now if that doesn't prove that the founding fathers had no clue of what they were talking about I don't know what will.




Not sure if I really need to disclose it , but : /Sarcasm

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

More than 70% of Americans identify as Christians.

So?

It's a country with a lot of Christians in it. Christianity is not our official religion

The people who wrote our constitution didn't write a holy book
Is America a Christian Nation?

The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.

The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.

I am not a Christian. I'm an American. I'm as American as you (though you might see things differently)

I wonder if you think the things you say sometimes go unnoticed, or that your desires are invisible

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union.

Exactly. The Founders knew one denomination of Christianity could become more prevalent and then go and kick all the other denominations in the nuts.

Sorta like with the Connecticut Baptists.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, and they're going to spread all kinds of fear mongering as their boat sinks. Fear is an incredibly powerful weapon and motivator. Fear brings people together and mobilizes people in ways other emotions can't.

Is it just me or does the Democratic part seem almost "centrist" these days when compared to the Republican party? The conservatives have gotten so extremely right-wing in the last 8 years since Obama that mainstream Democrats seem ... well, almost "middle of the road".

Yeah I agree. I believe this is why I get labeled a Liberal quite regularly on these forums.

Sure, there are some really whacked-out left-wing types, but the majority of mainstream Democrat politicians seem almost middle of the road by comparison today.

They also don't let made up history or science dictate their policies (for the most part that is).

I don't think this is just coincidence. When a group of people feels threatened they tend to draw themselves closer together and unite under emotionally powerful ideologies. The right-wing conservatives/Christians are becoming more extreme in their views in order to mobilize as many of their followers as possible -- this includes the fear mongering I mentioned earlier.

As they continue to loose power, we're going to see crazier and crazier things said. Many people who once considered themselves right-of-center are going to have to choose whether or not to drink the Republican Kool-Aid and go headfirst into radicalism.

Yup, that's what's happening. Christians are becoming radicalized in this country due to their shrinking political influence. It's not pretty, and it's only helping turn more and more people away from their congregations.

Yea, it's pretty amazing. They get crazier and crazier in reaction to their losing influence, then as a result they lose more people to the craziness and thus they get crazier. It's a viscous and self-destructive cycle. It may only be a matter of time before Christian terrorism starts to become more frequent in this country (man I hope that prediction isn't true).

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I've been saying this for years. The Left in this country are the moderates/centrists, and the right has become a victim of it's own propaganda. They are continuing to push further to the extreme right.

originally posted by: Willtell
Don’t worry folks this will all be settled when the Satanists demand equal billing by the state.

Then the religious Christians will cease this tendency to want to display their religious symbols on government property


The concept of the original constitution writers is a sublime one: trying to be even handed regards religion and not ever let one dominate the political landscape.


It amazes me why people can’t understand that


By doing this they protect all of our rights

This ^^ IS exactly how and why this issue is being settled, and it's being settled by taking the Ten Commandments down because Christians don't want to have the share the public square with Satanists!

Satanists seek spot on Oklahoma Statehouse steps

Satanists Demand Statue next to Christian Monument in Oklahoma

Satan's Statue design unveiled in Oklahoma

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Could we see a backlash? There was one person advocating war on another thread because of the gay folk.(removed now btw a hateful post.)

a reply to: windword

Yep, it's always when the Christians are forced to be nice to Satanists do they relent with their hypocrisy.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Logarock

Well considering that you pointed out the purposeful ambiguity of the term God on federal reserve issues, and in this context certainly, you got some gall trying to rake truth because she/he holds it like every other religion as talking about their God.

Why would someone's PERSONAL interpretation be used to force it upon others?

Do you not even understand at the most simplistic level how the First Amendment functions?

It shouldn't even be on the bills. Its a joke. You will never see me defending it.

However its easy to see why christians at the time would consider that it was put on there to placate the Almighty. I can say that without taking shots at christians. AND its really clear that the more out spoken opponents of IGWT are that way because of their attitude toward christians and not on any constitutional SoCS idea.

And I will and do respect other religions and recognize their standing under the 1st amendment but do believe that "In Yahweh We Trust" would have been the way to go.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: windword

Yep, it's always when the Christians are forced to be nice to Satanists do they relent with their hypocrisy.

Dude, haven't I seen you on the many "don't provoke the Muslims" threads? You dig what I am saying?

originally posted by: Logarock

I have only to point to Alexander de Tocqueville.

See you guys are getting some stiff resistance and the crap adjectives start flying.

Where again is Alexander de Tocqueville's signature on the Declaration of Independence? Oh...that's right...he was a French pseudo-political philosopher who was convinced America would fail.

"For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens.”
George Washington in a letter to Touro Synagogue (1790)

“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”
Founding Father John Adams — letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
Thomas Jefferson — in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
Thomas Jefferson — in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
Benjamin Franklin — letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”
James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical Endowments

I could go on for pages...cuz reality is easy to argue...