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OK Supreme Court: Ten Commandments Monument Must Be Removed From Capitol

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posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:27 AM
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originally posted by: theabsolutetruth


Only you mentioned Jesus. It mentions Christianity.


Yeah, asking if the person he is addressing is one, not that the United States is a Christian nation.

Try a little context here.



edit on 1-7-2015 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer




posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:27 AM
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originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Your opinion might be that but obviously the entire nation of America didn't object to it and still doesn't.


Where have you been? This is a debate that has raged for a LONG time now.
Atheists Lose Latest Battle To Remove 'In God We Trust' From U.S. Currency

Here's the current rationale for why it should remain on money:

But the three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York noted that the courts have long looked at the motto not so much as the entanglement of government in religion, but as a more general statement of optimism and a "reference to the country’s religious heritage."



The facts are, as I said America is rooted in Christianity, from it's laws to it's culture.


The FACTS are that none of that means we are a Christian nation. Plus our laws came from English Common law, not, Christianity.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:28 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

"The Church" is not given any special standing. Religion is. Because, Washington stated, "Religion and morality are indispensable supports” to our country" it is apparent that the concept of religion was seen as important.

But not "the Church".



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:28 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Logarock

Wrong, there were plenty of Jews here as well. Try again.




I didn't say their were not. But there were probably 10 to 1 christians beyond any other religion. And the churches in the colonies were the ones using their pulpit against the crown.

The issue here these days is any religion, and that primarily is brands of the church, that speaks out against the government or society is constitutionally protected and that equal to the press.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

"The times"....ill once again point you to the Treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1796. 20 years after the foundation of the US.

"The times" warranted showing deep respect for Islam.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:30 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Logarock

"The Church" is not given any special standing. Religion is. Because, Washington stated, "Religion and morality are indispensable supports” to our country" it is apparent that the concept of religion was seen as important.

But not "the Church".



You give religion special standing then the church has special standing. Its really that simple.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:31 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

You are also giving special standing to all other religions, including: Satanism, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Atheists, etc.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:31 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Logarock

"The times"....ill once again point you to the Treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1796. 20 years after the foundation of the US.

"The times" warranted showing deep respect for Islam.



Disrespect, as demonstrated in this thread, is certainly not limited to Muslims.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

You are also giving special standing to all other religions, including: Satanism, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Atheists, etc.


No I am not the constitution is. Have I talked theology once in this thread? No not a single word.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

That's what I meant. Religion is religion. That is why that word was used instead of church. You can attempt all the semantical words games you want to get around this, but the fact remains. All religions have always had equal protection under the law, even if it wasn't always actually enforced.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:36 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock
I didn't say their were not. But there were probably 10 to 1 christians beyond any other religion. And the churches in the colonies were the ones using their pulpit against the crown.


Frankly I am not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse or not but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If the Founders wanted the Constitution to say 'Church' they damn well would have put it in there, but guess what? They were smart enough to realize, even at that early stage, that our country was a secular republic and used the word 'religion' instead.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:36 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

It says religion for a reason.


Yea, the government cant interfere with any religion including the church.


Yes, church being a sub-set of religion. Which means that the word "religion" covers more than just the church. They aren't equivalent terms. All member of the sub-set church are religions but not all religions are members of the set church.


According to the constitution religions are not a subset of anything as concerning their standing constitutionally.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:37 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

i am against tax exemption for religions...so you won't have argument from me there.

The long and short: the Churches (or any other religious bases) provided important moral and financial support for people. As long as the work they do benefits the people, and they aren't playing politics, then the tax breaks are in line with how such things tend to work.

For example, if can apply for Historical Tax Credits from both the state and federal government to help me bring a historic building back to life. Similarly, if i open a unique business in an economically depressed area, i can seek New Markets Tax Credits. Restoring historic buildings, and making businesses in depressed places...that is helping the government do its job of protecting the general welfare of the people. Similarly, churches/mosques/etc (who do all manner of charitable work) would seem to promote the general welfare.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:37 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

I didn't call religions a sub-set of anything in that post. Go back and reread it.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:37 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Your opinion might be that but obviously the entire nation of America didn't object to it and still doesn't.


Where have you been? This is a debate that has raged for a LONG time now.
Atheists Lose Latest Battle To Remove 'In God We Trust' From U.S. Currency

Here's the current rationale for why it should remain on money:

But the three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York noted that the courts have long looked at the motto not so much as the entanglement of government in religion, but as a more general statement of optimism and a "reference to the country’s religious heritage."



The facts are, as I said America is rooted in Christianity, from it's laws to it's culture.


The FACTS are that none of that means we are a Christian nation. Plus our laws came from English Common law, not, Christianity.


Our laws have a variety of influences, English common law, Mosaic law, Roman Law, etc. and many of those influences influenced each other--English common law had influences from Roman, Christian, and pagan laws and traditions, for example.

That given, I don't think that the 10 commandments is an endorsement of religion--which religion? Christian? Hebrew?--as long as it is simply a representation of the concept of the law.

The SCOTUS has the 10 commandments but also the code of Hammurabi and Roman deities as references to the history of the law and law giving that influenced us.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:40 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Logarock
I didn't say their were not. But there were probably 10 to 1 christians beyond any other religion. And the churches in the colonies were the ones using their pulpit against the crown.


Frankly I am not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse or not but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If the Founders wanted the Constitution to say 'Church' they damn well would have put it in there, but guess what? They were smart enough to realize, even at that early stage, that our country was a secular republic and used the word 'religion' instead.


I don't know why you would be confused considering I conceded your point....which was not much of a leap. The reason you keep driving your point is because of your bigotry against christianity.

You just don't like me advocating for the churches position here. And really you like to use context.....



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Churches and religious organizations tend to do a lot of Charity work. Which is primarily what the 501(c) status entails, is that the organization is a not-for-profit charity venture. Plenty of non-religious groups also have 501(c) status. I'm sure you already knew that, of course. Just figured it bears repeating for those who may be confused on why churches have this status. It is not because the churches are religious, it is because they are charitable.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:41 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

I didn't call religions a sub-set of anything in that post. Go back and reread it.



You used the word subset my friend. You go back and re-read it.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc
Our laws have a variety of influences, English common law, Mosaic law, Roman Law, etc. and many of those influences influenced each other--English common law had influences from Roman, Christian, and pagan laws and traditions, for example.


Ok, that is a fair point. I was being a bit overly simplistic with my answer there, but the sources for our law also aren't primarily Christian like theabsolutetruth is suggesting.


That given, I don't think that the 10 commandments is an endorsement of religion--which religion? Christian? Hebrew?--as long as it is simply a representation of the concept of the law.


But there are religious decrees in the 10 commandments. Almost half of of the commandments demand respect to god.


The SCOTUS has the 10 commandments but also the code of Hammurabi and Roman deities as references to the history of the law and law giving that influenced us.


This was addressed earlier in the thread. The point was that the ten commandments under scrutiny here is because it is a monument sitting alone and by itself. Your example is paying tribute to other religions as well to display a different message through the artwork.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:43 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

I didn't call religions a sub-set of anything in that post. Go back and reread it.



You used the word subset my friend. You go back and re-read it.


I did reread it. It clearly marks the group church as a subset but doesn't make any mention if religion is a subset or not. Apparently you are failing to comprehend what you are reading. I made sure my terminology was VERY precise before I posted that remark. I know how Set Theory works.
edit on 1-7-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



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