It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

What about the flag that flew over the Trail of Tears?

page: 1
15
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:
+13 more 
posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 03:58 AM
link   
I'm hearing and reading all kinds of self-righteous pontification about the terrible racist and violent history of the Confederate flag. People suddenly feel like they are justified in making pronouncements about how terrible it is for anyone to fly such a shameful symbol with such a sordid and dark history.

What about the flag that flew over Native Americans (including women and children from the Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations) as they were force marched to their death on the trail of tears?

Or the flag under which small pox infested blankets were sent to native settlements?

Must I go on?

The point is, how is it that suddenly so many feel obligated burn with righteous indignation over the starts and bars, but very few of those people say anything about the atrocities committed under the stars and stripes?

I have an answer to that question, but I'll save it for later and listen to what others have to say.




posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:05 AM
link   
a reply to: incoserv

Flags at best are symbols , burning them wont change hate .



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:30 AM
link   
a reply to: incoserv

That flag's not on the agenda, the native americans aren't the ones being riled up in our media race war.

Happy 666th post



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:32 AM
link   

originally posted by: incoserv
I'm hearing and reading all kinds of self-righteous pontification about the terrible racist and violent history of the Confederate flag.


I think it's more it has never been an official flag so why fly it over official buildings? It was a battle flag.




The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.





It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals: 'that the negro is not equal to the white man'. The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population?


+10 more 
posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:35 AM
link   

originally posted by: incoserv
The point is, how is it that suddenly so many feel obligated burn with righteous indignation over the starts and bars, but very few of those people say anything about the atrocities committed under the stars and stripes?


...because they are attention whoring puppets who dance immediately when their media and corporate overlords tell them to do so. So far, "Old Glory" hasn't been in the media master's crosshairs. One of these days, however, you can bet they'll strike up the band and all the little puppets will go "Oh goody! Another opportunity to shake our fists with mock outrage and act like imbeciles against an inanimate object!" and the dance will resume all over again.

Bottom line: Modern humanity is really stupid.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:39 AM
link   
a reply to: incoserv

Technically the flag flying during the Trail of Tears was a 26 star flag, with some different variations of design all shown here. www.crwflags.com...

I know that's nitpicking, but I thought I would point it out.
As for the Confederate Flag, it is the flag of a failed attempt by seven Southern pro slavery states to secede from the United States...and is thus a symbol of being a traitor to the U.S. ...Also it is intrinsically linked to slavery. While pretty horrific things were done to the indigenous population of the U.S., it's 'Stars and Stripes' flag is not intrinsically linked to the ideas of genocide. Also there is quite a large time gap between the two. Equal rights for black people has only been an issue that has been tackled very recently...Mainly starting during the 1950's-60's African-American Civil Rights Movement...In fact most of these confederate flags on state grounds were only recently reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to of the African American Civil Rights movement.

From Wiki
In Georgia, the Confederate battle flag was reintroduced as an element of the state flag in 1956, just two years after the Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education. It was considered by many to be a protest against school desegregation.[37] It was also raised at the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss) during protests against integration of schools.[38]

Supporters of the flag's continued usage claim it is a symbol of Southern ancestry and heritage as well as representing a distinct and independent cultural tradition of the Southern United States from the rest of the country. Some groups use the "southern cross" as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.[39] For other supporters, the flag represents only a past era of southern sovereignty.[40] Some historical societies, such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy, also use the flag as part of their symbols. Some rockabilly fans hold the battle flag as their emblem as well.[41]

As a result of these varying perceptions, there have been a number of political controversies surrounding the use of the Confederate battle flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events, at Southern universities, and on public buildings. In their study of Confederate symbols in the contemporary Southern United States, the Southern political scientists James Michael Martinez, William Donald Richardson, and Ron McNinch-Su wrote:

The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.[42]



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:39 AM
link   
a reply to: incoserv

You raise some good points. The stars and stripes have flown over many horrible acts throughout our history.

I've grown quite sick of all the flag/south bashing of late, but you've brought up a valid topic of discussion here.

The treatment of the Native Americans, as well as other indigenous populations, by the U.S. government is something that should not be forgotten.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:44 AM
link   

originally posted by: incoserv
Irighteous indignation over the starts and bars


This is the stars and bars.

Are people indignated by it?

Or by this one?


Or this one?





Why is it southerners never fly one of these but instead the Army flag that was forgotten and resurrected by the KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election ?

Can someone answer this?


People keep talking about "heritage" but it seems they don't even know an official flag from an army flag? Nor that the battle flag was actually unused until white supremacists unearthed it. So really, we can ask these people; "what heritage? Aren't you proud of your official flag of the confederate states? Why not flying it".

Can people be so easily fooled? Can history be rewritten so easily? It seems like yes judging by the number of people denying the holocaust or the moon landing.

edit on 30-6-2015 by JUhrman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:49 AM
link   

originally posted by: JUhrman
Can someone answer this?


Because we can. That's really the only reason needed in a free country. The fact that further badgering is happening on much higher, much more regulated platforms than ATS is proves that America is far from a free country. By definition, one's rights cannot be conditional or require any substantiated rationale to be exercised and remain "rights."



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 04:54 AM
link   

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: JUhrman
Can someone answer this?


Because we can.



Good answer. People in the south prefer to fly the Army flag that was forgotten and resurrected by the KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election, rather than the flag of the confederate states.


Thanks for making it clear it's simply a personal choice and not the heritage of a tradition extending to the 19th century.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 06:20 AM
link   
a reply to: JUhrman

Meh. That's not entirely true. Both the Sons of Confederate Veterans and United Confederate Veterans, both of which were created in the late 19th century, used the battle flag in various means. The battle flag was also used by military units. A rebel flag was flown by Marines on Okinawa. Naval ships also flew it.

If we're going to quote from wiki, we should probably read all of it. Because all of what I just said is also to be found on the wiki page.

What's funny is that just yesterday, the beloved liberal pets the Young Turks railed against the rebel flag and yet...they couldn't be bothered to learn the difference between the national and battle flags. If we're going to demand that people who fly the flag fly it for a reason that conforms to selectively quoted wiki pages, we should also demand that those who rail against the flag do so for equally selective reasons.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 06:53 AM
link   
Most people see no wrong in the questionable actions taken by the US government over the years.

The US flag should become a reminder of what the country once was. It really should be replaced by a flag made by sewing corporate logos together into a rectangle. (much like a quilt).
edit on 6/30/2015 by roadgravel because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:14 AM
link   
a reply to: incoserv

I must argue that anyone who advocates the removal or destruction or suppression of a flag is too ignorant to really figure out either the problems or the solutions.

Whining about flags does not make history go away. Learn from our mistakes in the past and use them as a tool to guide us toward being better human beings, which in turn will lend ourselves to having a better country. If your intended goal is to cover all of this up, we will learn from nothing, and within a few generations, do things just as terrible as those before us did.

Many terrible things happened in the past in all countries (not just America), and terrible things still happen. Bettering one's self as a nation is a slow process and may have a few speed bumps along the way, but that does not mean that the Stars and Stripes represent only the terrible things done in the past--symbolism is subjective, but our flag represents (to me) the potential that our nation has, not the atrocities committed in the past.

What saddens me, though, is that I think the government is pissing away that potential.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:16 AM
link   
a reply to: incoserv

Wow... You are TOTALLY the first person I've seen trying to connect the US flag to racism... /sarc.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:17 AM
link   
a reply to: Shamrock6

Why do southerners fly a battle flag to show their support to the confederate states heritage?

You mention veterans and marines, I can totally understand why military people would fly a battle flag.


But why common people?

Especially when there is a real flag for the confederate states. Why not using it? Why flying a battle flag over an official building? Why not the flag of the confederate states?


The reason is because people completely lost sight of the history of this flag and today it's simply a symbol of southern pride because it was massively used in the XXth by Dixiecrats.

I have no issue with that, but claiming that this flag is "heritage" is some first grade BS. This flag has been used in the XXth to support a very specific political ideology.

You cannot deny it. You can only lie to yourself about it.



edit on 30-6-2015 by JUhrman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:21 AM
link   

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I must argue that anyone who advocates the removal or destruction or suppression of a flag is too ignorant to really figure out either the problems or the solutions.


That's a bit of an hyperbole.

I think the main request was to remove it from an official building.

If people fly it home or if stores refuse to sell it anymore, it's THEIR decision. Freedom goes both way.

If someone can show me where there are requests to destroy this flag everywhere I would like to see them. I think it's simply a fallacy to scare and polarize people just like when the NRA claims the gov wants to disarm the country.
edit on 30-6-2015 by JUhrman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:22 AM
link   
a reply to: JUhrman

It's funny how a request to remove a flag from a state building has warped into people trying to get the flag banned. Right wing hyperbole at its finest...



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:38 AM
link   
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Just more of the SOP. Keep people distracted with side issues so the real problems and questionable decisions by the government get lost in the shuffle.

It's still working just fine. Just saw the news with their election countdown clock. Nearly 500 days away but let's get that going to create another year plus distraction and make sure politicians don't do their real job.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:43 AM
link   
a reply to: JUhrman

I don't deny that the flag was adopted by racist groups. Never have.

Why are we denying that the flag was used before they ever got their hands on it? It was...but we act like it wasn't. I don't understand why we want to act like the flag was only ever used by the KKK and anti civil rights movements and nothing else, ever, period, full stop.

Why don't people fly the CSA flag instead of the battle flag? I have no idea. The CSA flags suck, in my opinion. Maybe that's why the organizations of the confederate veterans used the battle flag. Or maybe they identified with the army more than the notion of the CSA. And from there, the usage grew. I have no idea why. Why do people fly the Gadsden flag? Dunno, you'd have to ask them.

I'm not the one lying to myself here. I'm pretty aware of who used the flag in the mid to late 20th century. But I'm also aware that it was used before that, and not for those reasons. Fun fact: why did the Marine general on Okinawa order the rebel flag taken down? He, who was himself descended from a Confederate general? Not because he thought it was racist. He ordered it taken down because Marines from all over the country took Shuri Castle, not just Marines from the southern states.

I really don't give a damn about the flag. Never flown it. Never owned one. But I don't understand why people want to use selective history to question others' use of the flag, while accusing them of using selective history.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:45 AM
link   
a reply to: roadgravel

Well at least when politicians are in campaign mode, they aren't actively destroying the country with their boneheaded legislations. All legislation that will be pushed between now and next November is just pandering legislation to get votes for reelection.



new topics

top topics



 
15
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join