New York Senator Charles Schumer: Make Swatting Federal Crime

a reply to: mikegrouchy
I'm with you. I understand what you're saying. The laws on the books should be enforced. But if the Feds can get a law they can collect the money, doncha see? Cut the locals/state authorities (the ones who actually bore the costs) and they get to collect the money and fill their corporate prisons ever fuller.
Am I close

a reply to: mikegrouchy

While I do agree that it seems our police departments have swung towards arming them selves to the teeth, you must keep in mind as to why they felt like it was a logical step. Start with this video.

www.youtube.com...

The North Hollywood Robbery occurred in 1997 with 2 bank robbers in full body armor and heavily armed with illegally modified Norinco Type 56 S-1 to be fully automatic, while Police were armed with 9mm and 38 Specials and the standard 12 gauge shotgun.

An estimated 1750 rounds were fired, 1100 belong to the suspects and 650 came from the Police. Before the end of the longest shootout in US history an estimated 400 Police Officers arrived on scene and eventually the SWAT team responded and were armed with AR-15's.

Both gunmen were eventually killed, 11 Officers and 7 civilians were wounded, This was the turn around point for many departments especially in the bigger cities to upgrade their armorers and included Federal Officers upgrading their stock piles as well.

The world changed even more with the 9-11 event and the subsequent war. The war meant our Services upgraded equipment which resulted in an excess and it was auctioned or given to Police Departments across the country. I am not arguing for the militarization of our local Police but kind of understand where they are coming from. Would you want to respond to a scene with a 6-shooter and be under fire from an automatic ?

I do believe it is how it is being used which is the problem and believe they should at least assess a situation before they call in the tanks so to speak. As for the act of swatting, not only does it put innocent peoples lives in danger bot officers and civilians it is a total waste of the resources available and it should be a federal crime. Maybe it would be more of a deterrent against some stupid kid or adult from doing this sort of thing.

a reply to: DJMSN

Actually they just went to the gun store down the street for the armamanets.

To answer the previous question. Something like that would get thrown straight to the crack detectives team. Whoever is your ace team that day. If it is that serious a call, they could have complete info on the property, inhabitants, vehicles, etc by the time they arrive, and if everything checks out, then yah, knock on the freaking door. Obviously with plenty of backup en route and maybe a boom squad.

It's hearsay, on the phone. Your castle is your home.


Grouchy for President.

ETA All these fancy stingrays and whatnots, and they don't have some sort of caller ID verificarion? I know some of the kids are good, but for real, this cannot be an easy thing to do. I'd think you could make a (weak) argument for treason, and smack into about every law south of that.

originally posted by: DJMSN
a reply to: mikegrouchy

While I do agree that it seems our police departments have swung towards arming them selves to the teeth, you must keep in mind as to why they felt like it was a logical step. Start with this video.

www.youtube.com...

The North Hollywood Robbery occurred in 1997 with 2 bank robbers in full body armor and heavily armed with illegally modified Norinco Type 56 S-1 to be fully automatic, while Police were armed with 9mm and 38 Specials and the standard 12 gauge shotgun.

An estimated 1750 rounds were fired, 1100 belong to the suspects and 650 came from the Police. Before the end of the longest shootout in US history an estimated 400 Police Officers arrived on scene and eventually the SWAT team responded and were armed with AR-15's.

Both gunmen were eventually killed, 11 Officers and 7 civilians were wounded, This was the turn around point for many departments especially in the bigger cities to upgrade their armorers and included Federal Officers upgrading their stock piles as well.

The world changed even more with the 9-11 event and the subsequent war. The war meant our Services upgraded equipment which resulted in an excess and it was auctioned or given to Police Departments across the country. I am not arguing for the militarization of our local Police but kind of understand where they are coming from. Would you want to respond to a scene with a 6-shooter and be under fire from an automatic ?

I do believe it is how it is being used which is the problem and believe they should at least assess a situation before they call in the tanks so to speak. As for the act of swatting, not only does it put innocent peoples lives in danger bot officers and civilians it is a total waste of the resources available and it should be a federal crime. Maybe it would be more of a deterrent against some stupid kid or adult from doing this sort of thing.

Yes!
Without splitting hairs, that is pretty much how I remember it as well. Though I remember the conspiracy theory about it as well (another topic about the robbers not the police). That they actually had some new classified body armor, and intentionally went down in a hail of bullets because they wanted to get on TV to get-the-word out. If you remember even the SWAT had to go into a sporting goods store and buy high-powered ammo. Because the robbers body armor was stopping everything.

But either way; couldn't we characterize this as a gorram arms race between cops and criminals? With civilians just becoming collateral. Isn't this the same path that the oppressive Monarchy's of Europe went down. Body armor is illegal in many municipalities now. Illegal for civilians that is.

Balderdash.

This is MY country. These are MY police departments. And I have never seen the government pass a single law about electronic communications that made a lick of sense.


So, the question was "Would you want to respond to a scene with a 6-shooter and be under fire from an automatic ?"

And my answer is: "If let-them-take-the-money is what they teach all tellers, and cashiers, why didn't they just let them take it?" Catch them on the run, instead of cornering them. Unless, of course, the bank robbery was just a cover for the robbers real intentions.

Sorry, I'm ranting. Second pass at answering.

So, the question was "Would you want to respond to a scene with a 6-shooter and be under fire from an automatic ?"
My answer is: "I don't know, would you want to live in a world where the only people with automatics are SWAT and Criminals?" Cause if you do... peasantry and serfdom is that way /points to the medieval past.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: diggindirt
Most states have laws on the books that give the officers the benefit of the doubt in cases like this. So anything they find is fair game.

There is a legal term for it, it escapes me at the moment.

originally posted by: DJMSN
a reply to: mikegrouchy

Start with this video.

www.youtube.com...

The North Hollywood Robbery occurred in 1997 with 2 bank robbers in full body armor and heavily armed with illegally modified Norinco Type 56 S-1 to be fully automatic, while Police were armed with 9mm and 38 Specials and the standard 12 gauge shotgun.

Compare how many times the robbers are shot in the video above, AND DON'T FALL DOWN, and are not knocked back at all, to this video of a soldier being shot. In my opinion there was something unique or new about what the robbers were wearing.



And if we remember our European history a peasant with a pitchfork stood little chance against an armored knight. In fact it was the invention of firearms that ended the reign of nobility. Something many elites regretted for a long time. But if the new Armor has been invented....


Mike Grouchy

/warning incoming hearsay evidence

My friend who worked on the Particle accelerator in Pittsburg (back in the day) and helped develop the stuff said that the new classified armor causes the impact to flow around the body and the waves of force cancel each other out when they cross on the back side of the armor. Much better than the stuff our troops are equipped with.

/end hearsay evidence

And as many conspiracy theorists have posited about movies and media, that "they always let us know" consider the Batman movie where Morgan Freeman, when showing Bruce the high tech armor...

Bruce Wayne: Why didn't they put it into production?
Lucius Fox: Bean counters didn't think a soldier's life was worth 300 grand. So, what's your interest in it, Mr. Wayne?

Mike Grouchy

a reply to: mikegrouchy

Maybe a thread about that incident could turn up some interesting info. I've never heard any conspiracies associated with it. I did see the documentary on TV.

I thought it was just super heavy armor, like something a boom squad would wear. A soldier would never be able to sacrifice that much mobility in the field. It ended up being a big factor in their demise. They were so very slow.

If you can spread the force of the bullets effectively, shooting and being shot would feel about the same.

originally posted by: ISawItFirst
If you can spread the force of the bullets effectively, shooting and being shot would feel about the same.

No slower than the guy in the "this is why the military wears body armor" video.

He fell down when shot once.
They were shot how many times, and never fell down?


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: mikegrouchy

Really?!?

The cops were shooting 9mm and 40cal. That will bounce off military grade body armor.

The soldier shot in that video was hit by a 54r. That's basically a 30-06, or .308.

One comes from a p.i.s t.o.l the other from a s.n.i.p.e.r r.i.f.l.e or a m.a.c.h.i.n.e g.u.n

Major, major, major, major, major, major, major, major, difference.

Seriously secret body armor?!?

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: mikegrouchy

Really?!?

The cops were shooting 9mm and 40cal. That will bounce off military grade body armor.

The soldier shot in that video was hit by a 54r. That's basically a 30-06, or .308.

One comes from a p.i.s t.o.l the other from a s.n.i.p.e.r r.i.f.l.e or a m.a.c.h.i.n.e g.u.n

Major, major, major, major, major, major, major, major, difference.

Seriously secret body armor?!?

Thank you for that.
I'm always happier when my hearsay anecdotes do not catch on.







But Schumer is still wrong.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: mikegrouchy

One of the few streamers who makes money? Are you serious? Lots of streamers make money. Once they become partnered with Twitch they are able to have people subscribe to their channel, run ads & receive money from said ads, and of course they can always receive donations. I once watched to viewers have a battle donation on Trick2G's stream. In about 10 minutes he made $10,000. Just watching his stream last night a viewer by the name of Cher donated $1,000.

Another streamer, Summit, just bought himself a Nissan GTR which goes for about $100,000. Streamers can also make money by monetizing their videos on YouTube. And lastly, gaming companies also partner with streamers who place their logos on their live stream for additional $$. The streaming business is big biz for a lot of folks.

a reply to: mikegrouchy

my opinion there was something unique or new about what the robbers were wearing.

according to reports, one man wore a type IIIA vest, which will resist hit from the most handguns, including the most powerful handgun in the world .44 magnum . the police weapons until the rifles from the sporting goods store were used and SWAT showed up, could not defeat the vest at the distance they were shooting from. all the cops had at first were 9mm's, 38's, and 12ga shot guns.

Type IIIA
(.357 SIG; .44 Magnum)
New armor protects against 8.1 g (125 gr) .357 SIG FMJ Flat Nose (FN) bullets at a velocity of 448 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1470 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and 15.6 g (240 gr) .44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets at a velocity of 436 m/s (1430 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). Conditioned armor protects against 8.1 g (125 gr) .357 SIG FMJ Flat Nose (FN) bullets at a velocity of 430 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1410 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and 15.6 g (240 gr) .44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets at a velocity of 408 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1340 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in [Types I, IIA, and II].
Bulletproof vest

in addition one of them had homemade body armor for his legs and arms made from other vests, and one wore a type IIA vest with trauma plate.

here is what i think kept them from going down before they did, Phenobarbital. they took it before the robbery and i think it had them so calm and helped to not feel the pain from the gun shot wounds. the one that was shot in the head, Phillips is thought to have accidentally shot himself because of the hand wound and was trying to cock his weapon with his teeth when his gun went off, he was also hit in the neck as he went down and his spin was severed. also shot several more time on the ground.

Mătăsăreanu bleed out, there are a couple of accounts of the shootout
here are two.
the wiki,
North Hollywood shootout

and the wikia, this one shows the body armor that Philips wore, there is a exhibit at the Los Angeles Police Historical Society Museum.
Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Mătăsăreanu

here is the armor.

it only weighs 40lbs.

originally posted by: Aazadan

They're "pranking" the person on camera, but in reality you don't need someone on a webcam. What ends up happening is people find out the streamers name and location, then they call the police as an informant and get a SWAT team to break in, arrest the person, and bust everything up in the name of a drug bust or whatever else they're told is going on. The person who this happens to then gets to watch and laugh as the persons webcam captures and streams it all. Sometimes however it doesn't happen on stream and people simply do this to get revenge against a random person they know. At the last place I worked one of the students successfully called SWAT against an instructor because he didn't get a good enough grade. The instructor (a friend of mine) got the typical rough treatment we all know about from the police and his dog was shot (though it didn't die), all because a student was being an asshole.

This is something that is a very real issue, and should be highly illegal.

What a loser. Only a complete loser would do that to a person for not getting their own way. Pond scum, who if they got a real life wouldn't have the time nor inclination to be so lame.

What a dangerous thing to do someone, risking injury and possibly death and waste of tax payer money and a diversion from a potential real crisis of police resources.




ETA how did they get the police POV cam recordings in the first video........

Go back to the old days. Don't take them to jail, just out back for a good a.. whipping and tell them "Don't do it again and tell you're idiot internet friends not to do it because they are next".

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: mikegrouchy

SWAT teams have been around forever...
& they've always been militarised.

To be honest I think there is two different subjects here...

I agree there are two different subjects here, at least.

I think what he is saying (and the OP can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) is that if the police weren't being increasingly trained to use force as the first answer, and if they did not have such ready access to the heavy-duty toys to make that Force First mentality even more volatile, then a 13 year old with a grudge wouldn't be able to risk someone's life for kicks. Swatting is an example of how easy it is to bring down that hammer and get someone hurt. Maybe even a few someone's really, as police go barreling into private homes on these issues after all. Sure, SWAT teams have been around a long time, but they were used in rare and extreme circumstances; these days it doesn't take much at all to get the cops to break down your door and flash bomb your life.

People's lives are being risked for trivial reasons; the onus for that should be on the people calling the cops to instigate this in the first place. That is a greater societal issue as well, and I think the OP has touched on that. The public can no longer discipline their children without risking losing them, which is part of why we have an ever growing army of disrespectful, entitled snots out there. There is far more to that than just Some Of These Kids Need Beat, but they are so ubiquitous as to be difficult to acknowledge and when we do see it the Blame Them the Victim reflex kicks in. So, on that I'll only say that it's easy to say that people just need to be better parents, but it's hard to be a good parent when both of them are working two or three jobs to get basic needs met.

I see swatting as a result of two societal aspects run amuck. Two societal aspects that may be synergistic and creating a social feed back loop at this point. I don't like "more laws" as the answer, but with the militarization of the police force I'm not sure what else can be done.

originally posted by: mikegrouchy
2. Isn't filing a false police report ... already a crime.

In many states it is only a misdemeanor, I assume his rationale is to elevate it to a felony nationwide.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: mikegrouchy
2. Isn't filing a false police report ... already a crime.

In many states it is only a misdemeanor, I assume his rationale is to elevate it to a felony nationwide.

Right. A misdemeanor is a crime. A "lessor" crime.

Making it a Felony; with all the permanent consequences and restrictions that comes with that (can never own a fire arm, hard to find a job, probably never get a visa even if they have a passport) just seems a tad too far for something that could have been handled with a spanking.


And by the time they have passed such a law, God knows what it will really be used for. Because idiots after lulz will have moved on to some newer trick.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: mikegrouchy

It would be nice if Americans would realize how often SWAT teams are needlessly used. The danger they represent. The innocent people put at risk with their home invasions. I only support SWAT teams for 187 scenarios. Even that should have heavy community oversight. These guys are driving around in tanks, with machine guns, drones and full body armor. It's essentially militarized police kicking peoples doors down. It needs to stop- especially for petty drug offenses and other non violent crimes.

It's just another ignored symptom of authoritarianism in America. Too many people in this country worship authority. Authority is necessary but it should be heavily scrutinized. Democratic checks and balances are needed. The USA's police and military are being used for not so democratic reasons.

Swatting is this:
People are streaming live gameplay on a site like Twitch (thats where I stream). What happens is the 'swatter' calls the police using some kind of program to make it look like they're calling from the 'swatee's' house, saying the swatee has a gun, taken hostages, or has shot someone in the building/house. The police then respond in full force thinking its an active shooter, only to find out nothing is going on.
The 'swatter' does it because they are playing in a game like call of duty or something competitive like that, so the swatee's team loses the match, and also for kicks.
The reason I agree it should be a Federal crime is because the calls cross state lines. Thank god this hasnt resulted in a tragic shooting yet, but its possible.
People are messed up and those doing this should have the book THROWN at them. someone COULD be shot or killed as a result of these prank calls