John Oliver Segment on Transgender Rights

a reply to: JadeStar

That said, I also feel strongly that people will have much greater concerns in the future that worries about which bathroom a trans person might use will seem quaint and silly by comparison.

I fear you are correct. Like where their next meal might be coming from... Let's hope we're wrong.

I wrote this early this morning after being up and awake all night before I finally crashed. Now it's 3:30 PM and I just got up a few minutes ago and need to hit the bank and post office. There are some new posts I don't have time to respond to just yet but I'm going to go ahead and kick this out now and I'll be back later. Sometimes, I read through something I've written and amaze myself at how actually full of crap I can be at times. If you've ever thought I was too, I acknowledge that.
______
There has been something on my mind I may be guilty of and it's kind of bugging me that I'd like to get off my chest and if this is an issue for anybody, maybe if I explain more, you will understand where I'm coming from or maybe I'll learn to back off?

I haven't been out in the world much and involved in LGBT awareness or issues for a very long time. A story here and there - something on the TV now and then and I generally avoided related threads here because they always became rancorous. I knew the "T" had been added at some point but honestly not much more than that. It was but two months ago when I did click on something here and started reading about transgender. I became curious about this word, where it came from and when it came into widespread use and how it was being applied and what was being implied by its use.

When I first found medical help at 19, the label given people like us then was transsexual - trans:cross, sexual -the sexual characteristics you were born with.

The ultimate end-game of the therapeutic process was to undergo sexual reassignment surgery or to use the lay term, another one I despise, a "sex change". It was diagnosed as GID or gender identity disorder which is now instead called gender dysphoria syndrome. I'd probably have to look it up but I think GID was pretty narrowly defined where gender dysphoria syndrome is somewhat different with various flavors and degrees? At any rate, as the numbers of us grew and came together, it became obvious we were a pretty disenfranchised, and crapped on motley crew and for political expediency and combined power, some of the grassroots groups absorbed into the national gay and lesbian rights groups that added a B and at some point later, the T. I wasn't involved of any of this at any level, it just was all something that happened in the world while I was just off living my life and being me. Somewhere along the line, transsexual became transgender for some PC reason I don't fully understand, to get away from the sexual part of the word or something and probably to be more inclusive for the broader spectrum of gender dysphoric flavors of people with gender identity issues that didn't specifically just mean having surgery for sexual reassignment.

Maybe my own ego or something but transgender seemed to mean a hella lot of things I was not and didn't seem to quite fit. I never "transed" my gender, my internal sense of self in regards to being male or female has been a constant my whole life so I've rather adamantly clung to the more narrowly defined word transsexual which also better defines something I did, not something I am.

Heck, my geriatric mind is even confused by "trans woman". If I put together trans and woman, shouldn't that be a man then? I know how it is used, it just doesn't seem to fit the language rules. I like to play by my own rules when I can and I've never used trans woman or man in a sentence until just now, I think?

At any rate, if by calling myself transsexual instead of transgender has felt exclusionary toward anyone, I apologize. If you feel it is part of some divide and conquer strategy by the TPTB, don't worry about it too much because I'm sure before too long, I'll crawl back into my quiet little life and not even think about this crap as I have for many many years.

If I've always felt I was or known in my heart like a girl/woman all my life and at the earliest opportunity that was available to me had surgical procedures to become one physically, does that make me just a little bit special? Well, yeah, sorta maybe a little?


Yeah, lots of little boys play with dolls at some point and hang with their girl cousins but do they keep doing it? Handwritten note on the back of the color pic says "Xmas 57" so I was a few days short of 2. The other one must be from '59 maybe? I have plenty throughout the years and most incredibly, I still have that dolly as one of my most cherished things.



Does that make me one single bit better than anybody else here that identifies as transgender or gay or whatever letter they are, straight or purple polka dotted. No it does not. Not at all.

It does make it different for Jade and I to talk about bathroom issues or marriage equality because these things are different than those of our T and GLB cousins as well as medical considerations that are unique to our experience. In practice, it is even possible to disengage entirely from the GLBTQ community, ideals and concerns as I did the 11 years of my marriage. I am not "out" in my life now except for my involvement here. But do we face the same potential for discrimination, violence, prejudice, ridicule, backlash and who knows whatever the hell else that spans the whole GLBTQ spectrum, we're right there with you brothers and sisters and who ever is in the middle.

Peace, love and puppies!

a reply to: EKron

Thank you for sharing.. it's interesting and what i've discovered thus far

www.glaad.org...

www.medicaldaily.com...

to be honest i don't know when or why Transgender and Transsexual become intermixed and switched around..

Like i've said before due to my situation growing up and than forced to live on the streets for almost 2 years i learned about myself alone, it wasn't until i was around 20 that i started getting into the Activism and "Political"(i don't want to use that word) side of the GLBTQ+ Umbrella, and discovering more about each 'Letter'(for lack of better term at the moment) i've always heard it as Transgender and that is what seems to be accepted more Mainstream now.

I've had people tell me that i can't be Genderfluid i am just a Transgender who doesn't want to get sexual reassignment surgery which isn't true, though if we are dealing with the interpretation of the Transgender Umbrella term, i may fall under that 'Umbrella'.. Genderfluid is for another topic though as it will side track this one.

I think the GLBTQ+ letters are to add inclusiveness to the overall cause of 'GLBTQ+' rights, it's easier to say than 'Gay rights' or 'Trans rights' etc, it's an Umbrella Term that many can associate with for the overall 'cause' and we wouldn't have to fight for individual rights we can do it as one inclusive unit.. if that makes sense..

Thinking about it, maybe they wanted to distance themselves from Sexuality and Gender, since Sexuality and Gender are different

Thanks for the links, Darth. It was educational.

Transsexual (adj.)
An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed - or seek to change - their bodies through medical interventions (including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries). Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.

The first three words say a lot, "older". Part of that generational, stuck in your ways thing for sure. I'm old. This is what I learned it was called. I came across an interview recently with Renée Richards on the topic of Caitlyn Jenner. Richards noted to the magazine she isn't "overly happy with the term transgender" so I'm not the only one.

It also mentions it is not the umbrella term that transgender is and this is what I've been saying. It has been pointed out to me that this does lead to a degree of transsexual separatism and that perhaps I have been guilty as coming across that transsexual people are somehow better than transgender people or that by preferring to refer to myself as transsexual, it is trying to indicate some special exclusivity and that there's some special superiority involved. In addition to that, it doesn't support "the cause" or is disloyal to vaunted magic letters (LGBTQx), creates division and lacks solidarity.

Just because I don't prefer the term transgender be applied to me, it doesn't mean I don't like and have great compassion for the people that do nor do I think people's gender identity or expression that is less radical than full blown surgical transformation, are any less of a person than those that do and probably better off anyway.

It is hard to explain what I mean without coming across like an pompous ass and hard to alter my perception of things so it doesn't look that when I write here. I killed someone that was just 19 year old kid. Killed 'em dead and cut 'em up never to be seen again. There was blood and pain and for some, great loss, tears and accusation. Committing murder can have a pretty profound effect on a person and isn't something many can say they did and got away with but it was something I was driven to do at the exclusion of all else - a passion - an obsession - a soul crushing overwhelming blinding drive with no escape that consumed my every waking moment and thought. This homicide resulted in broken bonds and lost relationships and friendships, rejection, resentment, humiliation, despair and isolation. It was profound and forever shaped me.

With rehabilitation, what was left, what survived and recovered was me with a clean slate and fresh start and a new body and new life. I think this gives me the right to pick whatever label I want to pick, if I have to pick one.

I'm going to lay low for a bit as certainly, I've already spread enough of my drivel across this thread and alienated some in the process for which I am sorry. I get it and as far as transsexual separatism or superiority, there are differences and uniqueness' but it doesn't make them better than something else. Up until a few weeks ago when I came out about this here, I wasn't trans anything except for something I did forty years ago. That's a lot more simple life and I'm hearing the call of the woodwork for me to blend back in.

a reply to: EKron

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be addressed how you want, i'm only 23 so i only know what i know now.. but if it wasn't for people before us where would we be?

if it wasn't for strong people like you and others who were your authentic self and paved a path for others to walk down, i think that many of the generation now don't even think about the past and the Herstory( as i call it ) before them.

originally posted by: EKron

I haven't been out in the world much and involved in LGBT awareness or issues for a very long time. A story here and there - something on the TV now and then and I generally avoided related threads here because they always became rancorous. I knew the "T" had been added at some point but honestly not much more than that. It was but two months ago when I did click on something here and started reading about transgender. I became curious about this word, where it came from and when it came into widespread use and how it was being applied and what was being implied by its use.

When I first found medical help at 19, the label given people like us then was transsexual - trans:cross, sexual -the sexual characteristics you were born with.

The ultimate end-game of the therapeutic process was to undergo sexual reassignment surgery or to use the lay term, another one I despise, a "sex change". It was diagnosed as GID or gender identity disorder which is now instead called gender dysphoria syndrome. I'd probably have to look it up but I think GID was pretty narrowly defined where gender dysphoria syndrome is somewhat different with various flavors and degrees? At any rate, as the numbers of us grew and came together, it became obvious we were a pretty disenfranchised, and crapped on motley crew and for political expediency and combined power, some of the grassroots groups absorbed into the national gay and lesbian rights groups that added a B and at some point later, the T. I wasn't involved of any of this at any level, it just was all something that happened in the world while I was just off living my life and being me. Somewhere along the line, transsexual became transgender for some PC reason I don't fully understand, to get away from the sexual part of the word or something and probably to be more inclusive for the broader spectrum of gender dysphoric flavors of people with gender identity issues that didn't specifically just mean having surgery for sexual reassignment.

I think you pretty much have it figured out.

Like i sometimes have had to tell older people, transgender does not necessarily mean transsexual.

All transsexuals fall under the transgender umbrella but not all people who identify as transgender pursue surgery or in some cases (believe it or not) even hormone therapy.

The world -has- changed since you were 19. But I would say that the term Transsexual is still in use for those like us who had very specific things done so that we may live better lives.

It's not so much that transsexual has fallen out of favor but that we make up a small fraction of a larger community and like you said, for purposes of political expediency we all kinda were drawn together.

I mean I've even heard of intersexed people who now identify as transgender for the same reasons.

Maybe my own ego or something but transgender seemed to mean a hella lot of things

It does.

It's kinda like the term "black". Someone can be black and from South Africa, or South Carolina, South London, South Trinidad or South America.

And the languages they speak, the customs and the culture they grew up in are VASTLY different from each other but in America they would just fall under the umbrella term "black" which would not be entirely useful when looking at things on the micro level. While they may all share some common experiences perhaps with discrimination, it is also quite possible that they might not at all.

Likewise someone may see the term "transgender" and think they know what it means but in reality it covers a VAST spectrum of people and their life experiences.

As I've said, while I don't have a huge issue with being labelled transgender on a macro level or even transsexual on a micro level, i prefer my own phrase "girl born differently" or "woman born differently" as I feel that unlike the term transsexuak it is a better descriptor since sometimes people hear the word "sex" in transsexual and think that it is all about sex.

[quote[I was not and didn't seem to quite fit. I never "transed" my gender, my internal sense of self in regards to being male or female has been a constant my whole life so I've rather adamantly clung to the more narrowly defined word transsexual which also better defines something I did, not something I am.

I agree. Really the problem is the English language.

In Thailand there are Thai words which mean "girl of a second kind" or "woman of a second kind" and there are also male equivalents of these too!.

My "girl born differently" phrase is about as close as I could get to anything like that.

Heck, my geriatric mind is even confused by "trans woman". If I put together trans and woman, shouldn't that be a man then? I know how it is used, it just doesn't seem to fit the language rules. I like to play by my own rules when I can and I've never used trans woman or man in a sentence until just now, I think?

Transwoman or Transman simply are shorthand for "woman (or man) of transgender or transsexual history".

At any rate, if by calling myself transsexual instead of transgender has felt exclusionary toward anyone, I apologize. If you feel it is part of some divide and conquer strategy by the TPTB, don't worry about it too much because I'm sure before too long, I'll crawl back into my quiet little life and not even think about this crap as I have for many many years.

I don't think it is exclusionary, nor is that how you come across. I do think that sometimes TPTB have tried to divide and conquer the trans* community. Oh by the way when I use trans* that * means it can be transgender OR transsexual. Again it's shorthand for transgender/transsexual.

And PLEASE don't go! You're perspective is very valuable! *hug*

If I've always felt I was or known in my heart like a girl/woman all my life and at the earliest opportunity that was available to me had surgical procedures to become one physically, does that make me just a little bit special? Well, yeah, sorta maybe a little?

Absolutely.

BUT.... and here's the thing that could ge someone into trouble these days..... Though you and I knew where were girls from our earliest memory and the fact that we played with dolls and stuff should always just be put out there as just a relevant fact.

It does -not- make us -any- better than someone who discovered themselves later in life, or those who have "blended gender" identities, etc. Their experiences are equally valid and valuable.

I know your head is probably exploding about now but yeah, keep an open mind. The re are some really good people out there of from all over the trans* spectrum.

We may not all speak the same language as in my sample above, but we all share some commonalities. I try my best not to let language or accents get in the way of getting to know someone else

Yeah, lots of little boys play with dolls at some point and hang with their girl cousins but do they keep doing it? Handwritten note on the back of the color pic says "Xmas 57" so I was a few days short of 2. The other one must be from '59 maybe? I have plenty throughout the years and most incredibly, I still have that dolly as one of my most cherished things.

Does that make me one single bit better than anybody else here that identifies as transgender or gay or whatever letter they are, straight or purple polka dotted. No it does not. Not at all.

Exactly. And thanks for posting that and being so open. I may have to dig up and send you the ones of tbe princess party my parents threw for me as a gesture of acceptance on my 8th birthday. That was probably my best birthday EVER!

It does make it different for Jade and I to talk about bathroom issues or marriage equality because these things are different than those of our T and GLB cousins as well as medical considerations that are unique to our experience.

Totally.

In practice, it is even possible to disengage entirely from the GLBTQ community, ideals and concerns as I did the 11 years of my marriage. I am not "out" in my life now except for my involvement here. But do we face the same potential for discrimination, violence, prejudice, ridicule, backlash and who knows whatever the hell else that spans the whole GLBTQ spectrum, we're right there with you brothers and sisters and who ever is in the middle.

Exactly, you know you've laid this all out there very eloquently. I soooo hope you stick around.

originally posted by: EKron
Thanks for the links, Darth. It was educational.
I'm going to lay low for a bit as certainly, I've already spread enough of my drivel across this thread and alienated some in the process for which I am sorry. I get it and as far as transsexual separatism or superiority, there are differences and uniqueness' but it doesn't make them better than something else. Up until a few weeks ago when I came out about this here, I wasn't trans anything except for something I did forty years ago. That's a lot more simple life and I'm hearing the call of the woodwork for me to blend back in.

The one thing that is wonderful about today is that one can be out in some places like say an online forum and not be out in other places like your dad to day life.

So do blend back in if that is what you choose but please hurry back. Your perspective as a young transitioner in a time period which I can't EVEN IMAGINE transitioning in is unique and you have contributed a lot (and probably de-mystified the
subject to some who may or may not have participated in the conversations in the threads we've posted in.


I realize how emotionally draining this all can be. Trust me, i was very scared when I decided to come out in the hormone blockers thread.

So yeah, take a break but please come back. *hug*

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: EKron

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be addressed how you want, i'm only 23 so i only know what i know now.. but if it wasn't for people before us where would we be?

if it wasn't for strong people like you and others who were your authentic self and paved a path for others to walk down, i think that many of the generation now don't even think about the past and the Herstory( as i call it ) before them.

So true. I have profound respect for Ekron. It is because of people like her that you and I could exist today.

originally posted by: JadeStar
All transsexuals fall under the transgender umbrella but not all people who identify as transgender pursue surgery or in some cases (believe it or not) even hormone therapy.

I didn't know this. I thought transgender was just the "new" name for transsexual, but I get it now... Thanks to all of you for the lesson. This is a very educational thread!

I use the term transgender, and now that I know that it's an umbrella tern, I like it, because it ISN'T specific about whether a person has undergone surgery or hormone therapy. I just don't feel that's anyone else's business, UNLESS the person wants to share.

EKron, I don't think preferring the term transsexual is pompous at all. It's just more descriptive. Forgive me though, for using the more general term transgender because what you've done in the past is really of no concern to me.

I look forward to the day when we're all just called people, or men and women, without all the LGBTQx partitions and specific breakdowns. To me, you and Jade are just women.

AArrgh!

Amazing what a good night's sleep can do for a person. There is a lot here that I'm now anxious to respond to but wouldn't you know it - my phone is ringing off the hook and I'm slammed with work so it may be a while. So, either be relieved or disappointed, I'm not quite ready to bail just yet.

For that, you can either blame or thank Miss Jade. In fact, without her encouragement, I probably wouldn't even be here at all. You guys may think I'm some of kind of pioneer or something - with her wisdom and articulacy, I think she's my new role model?

I'll be back as time allows. How about some thoughts, comments and questions from some of you other folks?

a reply to: EKron

I think you and others are pioneers for living your authentic self, i know i'm part of this younger Generation but maybe i just think different in the sense of not taking things for Granted, and those in the past who lived their authentic self and inspired people to fight for Equality

originally posted by: JadeStar
It does -not- make us -any- better than someone who discovered themselves later in life, or those who have "blended gender" identities, etc. Their experiences are equally valid and valuable.

I know your head is probably exploding about now but yeah, keep an open mind. There are some really good people out there of from all over the trans* spectrum.

My mind is so open, sometimes my brains fall out. I wish we had more of those that do span the broader spectrum so I could learn more about them too. There is a lot I obviously don't know and would like to.

Let's do talk about those that discover themselves later in life and possibly why suicide rates are so high for transfolks. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it must be for someone well into their adult life to transition into living as the opposite gender. To clarify "transition" in this case, let's leave reassignment surgery out of the picture for now. SRS is the last step in the process or the icing on the cake, as it were.

Probably what I'm going to say is inaccurate and I'm sure to get a lesson if I go too far so I'll try to stick with what I know from my own experience. I will also add the disclaimer that of the maybe half dozen or so trans people I have ever met in my life, none were in the transitioning stage and all were post op. I don't get out much.

How does a person at say forty reach the point they want to become or live as the gender different to the one they've been up until that point or conversely, how did they make it to forty without this crisis of gender identity? I used the word crisis because something less than that would be inadequate. Nobody does this for fun or because it is easy and nobody does it on a passing whim. Is there a tipping point that once that switch is flipped, there's no turning back? Have they lived in denial and just fought against it the whole time. Have they wavered back and forth?

Now I have to stop myself as I'm writing this next paragraph and thinking what to say because a couple of things have dawned on me, the first of which is I have no idea what I'm talking about. The second, when I mentioned the "tipping point", I was thinking solely as being only the drive to transition socially full time. I can only speak of my own experience and even that is different because there are options now that were impossible in the 60's. (edit - things go off track here but tie in later)

As a child, I was pretty much allowed to be myself. I was considered "sensitive", had dolls, loved to play house and at family gatherings and such, when all the other boys were outside doing boy stuff, I'd be inside playing Barbies with the girls. I never thought about it much and didn't get hassled for it. As I got a little older and became more aware of gender expectations, I became more conscious of my atypical behavior and felt much more pressure to conform and denied myself things I wanted to do. I never felt like much of a boy or a girl but I took a lot of teasing and bullying because I must have been somehow different? SHTF when I started 7th grade and was expected to shower for PE class. No way in hell was I going in there!

This was the first of several times my parents took me to a psychologist to get "IQ tested". We're talking 1967. I never really understood what all was going on there but got a doctor's note saying I didn't have to take showers. I spent the 7th and 8th grade PE in the coaches office folding towels and man was I happy about that.

I never said out loud and forced my mind's inner voice to never allow myself to say I want to be a girl. This was impossible. Boys couldn't be girls. I fought this battle in my mind for a long time - these were forbidden and dark thoughts. I was completely unsocial, very shy, very introverted and "sensitive". I was "IQ tested" a few more times.

By high school, these thoughts I was not allowed to think had become to be thunk and had become quite noisy and difficult to shut out but there was nothing I could do about it. These crazy and disturbing things simply were just not possible - boys couldn't be girls. It was sick to even think that. I was in a funk and I knew why but if I ever shared what was in my mind with anyone, I was sure they would lock me up for being crazy or give me a lobotomy. I became even more withdrawn and introverted, didn't make friends and wanted to be left alone. I got the "IQ test" thing again. (Side note: I so wish I could have asked my mom what all this was about before she passed away)

I was a pretty smart and flexible kid though and did my best to play the game. That's what life was, a game, an act, a fake shell for protection and trying to compensate outwardly against what I felt inwardly. I still had my ass kicked a few times. I was a late bloomer but when puberty started to finally hit, I wanted to lock myself in my room and never ever come out. I didn't think of suicide as much as I just thought about being dead. There was still nothing I could do about this, it was impossible not to mention ridiculous to think that boys could turn into girls and it was tearing my mind in half. I was forever damned. There was nothing I could do, no one I could tell and what would my parents think or do if I did? I took internal strife,suffering and torment to new levels. Teenage angst X 10000. Thinking about this now, I don't know how I didn't die? Thank dog that kids today have options and can talk about this.

Out of the house right after high school and I started letting the me inside win the battle. A year later, I was me and all the things that were previously completely impossible, while still very rare in 1974, weren't quite so impossible anymore and I knew in my mind without a shadow of doubt, without so much as even a question, what I had to do and if I couldn't, then I was going to die for real. There was no stopping. No alternative.

I had reached my "tipping point". The drive to be a complete person was the most powerful thing in the world, an unstoppable blind driving force that if not resolved was certain to kill me and at times it nearly did. To me, this overwhelming drive is/was what gender dysphoria is all about. As I understand it now, it comes in lesser degrees of intensity but going way back above to my original thought, let's look at our forty year old late transitioner. If their tipping point comes later in life and is felt with the same degree of force, they're most likely unable to deny it any longer and it must be so much more difficult for them as I can only imagine. It can be tragic and those that can't make it or even face it and admit it to themselves, can end up with so many problems and so many people that just give up.

There are theories on why some people transition later in life but I won't go into them here because it really doesn't matter. There's a lot of trans feminist points of view about male privilege and all but let's skip those too. For someone that can't or doesn't do it early, it must be a very hard row to hoe.

All I can say in looking back at my childhood and teen years, how fortunate that science and medicine know what to do today that they didn't in the past and the once absolutely impossible and even inconceivable is now a reality and as I'm sure at least one of the others here can testify to, a pretty awesome thing.

originally posted by: JadeStar
The one thing that is wonderful about today is that one can be out in some places like say an online forum and not be out in other places like your day to day life.

It's not like there haven't been times I've been out but I've known people for 30+ years that don't know and it's not really a conversation I'd like to have with them. I am not embarrassed by my past but I am a pretty private person and it's really nobody's business unless I choose to make it that way.

I think when people do know, it changes their perception and it's difficult for them to not make comparisons in their mind. I do some things that could be considered "tomboyish" and while not the incredible hulk by any means, am kind of "big boned" (but then again, so was my mother). All stuff that a (need the PC term here - cis?) woman would ever be thought twice about for doing. People knowing does make them think twice. It's not the end of the world but it isn't my favorite vacation spot either. Usually after the shock wears off, it's no big deal and soon forgotten.

I realize how emotionally draining this all can be. Trust me, i was very scared when I decided to come out in the hormone blockers thread.

And you know if it wasn't for your courage and example (and a little nudge), I wouldn't be here either. This can and has been taxing. I've thought about things I haven't thought of in a long time and of some things I'd really rather forget forever. In a way it has been cathartic though and I've thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you and others that have joined us here and in the similar threads.

I've poured so much of my life out here which I'm as tired of doing as I'm sure others are probably as tired of reading and there's not much more about me to say. (Well there is but you're gonna have to pry it out of me) This thread has left me warm and fuzzy as it hasn't been the typical ATS thread full on unpleasantness. With that said, I've almost reached a certain level of chill enough to do something I am highly uncertain about doing and hope I don't regret.

Heeeere's Granny!

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: JadeStar
The one thing that is wonderful about today is that one can be out in some places like say an online forum and not be out in other places like your day to day life.

It's not like there haven't been times I've been out but I've known people for 30+ years that don't know and it's not really a conversation I'd like to have with them. I am not embarrassed by my past but I am a pretty private person and it's really nobody's business unless I choose to make it that way.

I think when people do know, it changes their perception and it's difficult for them to not make comparisons in their mind. I do some things that could be considered "tomboyish" and while not the incredible hulk by any means, am kind of "big boned" (but then again, so was my mother). All stuff that a (need the PC term here - cis?) woman would ever be thought twice about for doing. People knowing does make them think twice. It's not the end of the world but it isn't my favorite vacation spot either. Usually after the shock wears off, it's no big deal and soon forgotten.

I realize how emotionally draining this all can be. Trust me, i was very scared when I decided to come out in the hormone blockers thread.

And you know if it wasn't for your courage and example (and a little nudge), I wouldn't be here either. This can and has been taxing. I've thought about things I haven't thought of in a long time and of some things I'd really rather forget forever. In a way it has been cathartic though and I've thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you and others that have joined us here and in the similar threads.

I've poured so much of my life out here which I'm as tired of doing as I'm sure others are probably as tired of reading and there's not much more about me to say. (Well there is but you're gonna have to pry it out of me) This thread has left me warm and fuzzy as it hasn't been the typical ATS thread full on unpleasantness. With that said, I've almost reached a certain level of chill enough to do something I am highly uncertain about doing and hope I don't regret.

Heeeere's Granny!

Well first of all thank you for that post detailing what your feelings were and how you had to reach a certain "tipping point" and how that tipping point can perhaps come later in life. In your case it came fairly early.

In my case, idk if i even had a tipping point. if i did then i reached it before i even learned to talk. Or maybe, since i was able to talk about my feelings with my parents and stuff, i never had to reach a tipping point because the option to grow up as a girl was there for me.

what were considered "dark thoughts" which dare not be said, i was told were not uncommon and that other kids had them. in other words, I wasn't alone.


I'm also glad that i was able to coax you to join us here and you are fairly young looking granny so it's obvious that you've treated yourself well.

i too am happy with how this thread has gone for the most part and would love it if people with other experiences (such as you pointed out above) joined in.

i feel that you are a little relieved that there are others like you or I or TrappedPrincess on ATS. I hope that anyone else on ATS like us will join us.

*hugs*

originally posted by: JadeStar
Well first of all thank you for that post detailing what your feelings were and how you had to reach a certain "tipping point" and how that tipping point can perhaps come later in life. In your case it came fairly early.

For me, it wasn't a tipping point of thought, but one of action. I had figured that out well before and had already begun living as me. What the tipping point was when I found out I didn't have to go to some shady corner in Morocco for some scary ass sounding surgery I had read some terrible things about. I had a referral to the research program going on at Johns Hopkins that was ridiculously strict and lengthy but then found out about the work Dr. Biber was doing in Colorado.

When I left home about a week after high school, I didn't go back for seven months. It was near the holidays and my 19th birthday was coming up. I had called my mom and said we had some things to talk over that she might not be very happy about and to please try to be calm and not freak out. My mom was cool as hell, we had gay family friends and she was the first person my lesbian cousin came out to but it was still a major WTF moment for her. I remember I was so scared I was shaking like a leaf and sick to my stomach. We talked. We cried (a lot), we talked some more and had a couple of glasses of wine. She said she was pretty shocked but in the same sentence said she said she really wasn't the least bit surprised and I'm like "say what"?? She said she always knew who I was inside and that I would do something like this but was hoping I would just turn out to be gay. Well let me tell ya, that was one hella revelation to me and I ended up being more shocked than she was. All those years I hid myself and kept the things torturing me inside I wanted so desperately to say but was too afraid. I wanted to know if she felt this way, how is it that I never knew about it and she said she was just waiting for it to come from me first. She did remind me of hints that had been dropped I failed to pick up on which I thought were just teasing because that's how I took them. It happened so often that it became a running joke. I liked being in the kitchen and my mom's health was up and down for years so a lot of the time I was the one doing the work and the joke that turned out to be the "hint" that went right over my head was "you're going to make somebody a good wife one of these days" - Haha. Right. Damn.

Then we really cried. (Parents, please talk to and listen to your children)

Before I left, I did her dishes and cleaned up the kitchen. I got the joke again but this time it was like "I guess you really ARE going to make a good wife one of these days"? Mind=blown. My hair was just a couple inches from my waist and she insisted on trimming the ends before I left. "So what am I supposed to call you now", she asked. I had been told before what I was going to be named if I was born a girl, back then it was always a surprise and told her that was the name I wanted to be called. She never made a mistake the rest of her life.

I suspect but will never know that all these "IQ tests" I seemed to keep having were really something different and I'll bet dollars to donuts she was told to keep quiet? I had a step-dad too but we never got along too well and he had a big problem calling me the right name but my mom turned out to be my best ally and champion. She was, however, very much against me having SRS being in the camp that it was "mutilation". That didn't help much. Once I did finally have surgery scheduled even three years after meeting her "daughter" for the first time, we had a big blow up just a couple weeks before I went. I remember saying something like "do you want me to be crippled the rest of my life"? It was nasty.

I took a plane to Colorado Springs and a long bus ride to Trinidad. Spent eleven days in the hospital by myself then a bus ride and plane trip back to town. Friends met me at the airport. I passed out before I made it out of the terminal.

My mom didn't call me and I didn't call her. My gay cousin did call me when I was in the hospital so I know my mom at least knew I didn't die. We played who's the most stubborn for another six months. I don't remember who caved first but she was happy to see me when I came to visit but at first she was a little aloof as I had just gone against her wishes and been "mutilated". I knew she was dreading it but after dinner I dragged her into the bedroom and took off my clothes and gave her the $3 dollar tour. That was probably one of the more embarrassing things I've ever done but she was absolutely stunned speechless at how wrong she'd been about the mutilation thing. She was full of questions about everything and I told her about the post-op things I had to do. That was one amazing evening. She hugged me. We cried some more and she apologized to me saying she had no idea.

She wanted to trim my ends again before I left and I ended up doing the dishes and cleaning up the kitchen. I didn't get the joke that time.

My mom lived another three years and passed away when I was twenty five. Writing and remembering, I think I might just cry again.

originally posted by: JadeStar
Or maybe, since i was able to talk about my feelings with my parents and stuff, i never had to reach a tipping point because the option to grow up as a girl was there for me.

Two days earlier and I would have been born in 1954. My mother was born in 1932. Not quite in the "children should be seen and not heard" generation but close enough. My parents divorced when I was 7 and my dad moved out of state. My mom did remarry twice but I never felt anything for either of my step-dads. My mother and I were close but mostly in an argumentative way. (OMG! I'm a product of my environment) That's how we got along. I was able to talk to her but certainly not about that. In the 60's, I doubt many boys had the option to grow up as girls. It makes people's heads explode now. 50 years ago there would have probably been burning and stakes involved, I'm sure.

What were considered "dark thoughts" which dare not be said, i was told were not uncommon and that other kids had them. in other words, I wasn't alone.

I could not talk about wanting to be a girl. At all. Are you kidding me? The only thing I can remember was a fight or argument with yelling and screaming and I said "I should have been born a girl" and then stomping off into my bedroom and slamming the door. I don't even remember how old I was but I did get in trouble for slamming the door. I couldn't even allow myself to think it because such a thing was simply impossible. I had the constant internal dialog that did think it though talking to the one that told me not to. It was such a completely insane and foreign notion I was actually afraid I would be put in a mental institution if I let my secret out. This was a serious fear of mine as a kid.

...so it's obvious that you've treated yourself well.

My secret is beer and weed!

... love it if people with other experiences joined in.

YEAH OTHER PEOPLE! REPRESENT!

I feel that you are a little relieved that there are others like you or I or TrappedPrincess on ATS. I hope that anyone else on ATS like us will join us.

Yeah, it's always nice to find "family". There's got to be more and after all the personal crap I've said, nobody should be shy about sharing.