John Oliver Segment on Transgender Rights

originally posted by: EKron
However, my opinion on a penis in the ladies gym showers is that it is a complete disrespect for the comfort levels of female bodied women that I find almost inconceivable from someone claiming woman identity. It is absolutely alpha male privileged behavior no ifs ands or buts. Transgender deconstructionist bloggers are clamoring for this as their civil right which I think is absolutely nuts. (no pun intended) For those that are directly working toward or have completed sexual reassignment surgery, that I still use the unpopular term transsexual for, feel the struggle for their own unique rights is losing potential allies from the demands of the transgender jihad. (Boy, I'm really gonna get it for that) I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm dumb as the next person but this does show that all of us no matter what we are, are all different and unique and that labels suck.

What if she tucked or otherwise hid it?

Whatever the case, I don't have a solid answer for you. For what's worth, the transgender or transsexual person is usually the victim, not the aggressor.

^^^ THIS x1000

These issues are new and evolving and not all figured out yet. I guess I could say if their are women in the bathroom that aren't acting like ladies, I'd probably be pretty damned uncomfortable and if I saw penises in the showers at the fitness center, I'd probably lose my s**t.

I'd happy to continue this line discussion. Maybe I can figure it out too?

Thank You!!!

I'm with you. I would not want to see a blatant penis in the changing room of the gym I go to. I'd feel uncomfortable with someone who claims to need that space to be showing something which at least I know for me personally, prior to surgery, I took great care *never* to show. I am not sure I can understand why anyone wouldn't take the same care unless they just are completely socially oblivious.

If I felt safe in doing so, I might ask her at some time with other people around while she was fully dressed if she could have a word with me privately. If she agreed I'd explain that I was once like her but I would never have felt comfortable showing that thing, and certainly not in woman's changing room. In a friendly way I'd offer to give her advice on how to be more tactful about things so she can live as comfortably as possible without making those around her (including me) uncomfortable.

Though I must admit, if she was like some 40 year old 6'4" late transitioner I'd have serious reservations about approaching her.

originally posted by: honested3
I am glad to find people are becoming more aware, or at least trying to understand transgender issues and things that we face though we have a long ways to go. I am a transgender woman myself in fact I made one of the threads EKron posted (Thank you by the way) I am also making myself available for questions if they come from the right place not one of condemnation

Thank you for being here and offering to share your insight. I know that is so not easy to be open about this stuff. It's also nice to know I'm even less alone than I thought I was when I first came out on ATS. How many of us are now out on ATS?

5? Wow!

*hug*

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: GENERAL EYES

Rappers have attempted to transform the N word towards something that they can be proud of. Maybe transexuals can take a cue from that.

As someone whose mother and her family is black I can tell you that 1) I'd have my mouth washed out if I ever said the N-word in her presence (I'd never say the N-word at all regardless of what some dumb rapper does). 2) None of her family use it. 3) None of my friends who are black use it.

Now I understand that some black people do use it but I do not believe that one can simultaneously use a word among themselves and expect those outside their group not to use it.

The same goes for transgender people who are using the T-word.

Why not just be polite? Why not just use language everyone agrees is not offensive? Why does everything have to be ghetto? Can't we just speak plain English? Is that so hard? Why does everyone feel they have to use slang in the first place?


Look, maybe I'm a product of conservative parents but I just don't understand why people of all shades and genders feel they aren't "cool" or "down" unless they identify with street culture and use the N-word or the T-word.

Meh, I'll bow out of this one.

Probably a good idea at this point.

I'm sorry for the (apparently) huge offense of my previous posts, it wasn't intended.

Your apology will be accepted by us when you post the pictures of you in that dress

originally posted by: JadeStar

Oh dear.

Here might be another case where there is a generational divide.

Ekron - I do not think pl3bscheese meant you or I or anyone any harm. They were calling themselves a tranny. While, I personally detest that word and feel it is still a slur I know that there are girls my age and younger who use that word or trap to describe themselves and heard both used affectionately by those with an attraction to trans* women.

It is still a slur if used as a slur but there are those who believe in defusing the power of the slur by using it in a different way. (i know, i know, I hate that too!)

Oh, I know. I really only pointed it out with feigned outrage so that people that might not even be aware it was a slur or derrogatory, would be and I do agree some of my irritation with its use is probably generational as well as regional but I thought the context itself was mocking.

The white dude that goes into "da hood" and starts nigga this and nigga that is gonna get his lily ass whooped good or at laughed at for being such a tool. When a bunch of gay guys call each other fag, queer or homo, it's a traditional slur used as an endearment within a group but when some straight man directs those words toward a gay man, it's usually in a less friendly, buddy buddy sort of way. I hardly think Mr. Cheese was trying to endear me by coopting what is apparently my clan's slang unless he is transsexual and I am unawares?

I haven't met or been around other women that share our commonality to hang out and shoot the breeze with for at least twenty years up until we bumped into each other here just a few short weeks ago. That's cool, I can be your tranny granny if you like but nobody else better damn well call me that.

Also keep in mind, I ain't made it this far and been through the things I've been through that anything some jackwad (sorry dude) behind a keyboard says is going to bother me in the least. I may be a sweet mom/grandma type lady but I'm a pretty tough cookie when it's called for and sticks and stones and all that. I even pretend to act like a grownup sometimes.

As we are kind of using this thread as a platform to hopefully be available to help people maybe chill out on some of this alphabet stuff and just discuss things, it should become apparent the LBGTwhateveritis "community" is as full and diverse as any other community with different types of people with differing attitudes and opinions. We are family. We are all unique.

Fuzzies everyone

Oops! Edit to add - I just reread this and it may have come across a little more uppity than I intended? It's 3:30 AM for cryin' out loud and I should have been in bed hours ago. Sorry, let's all talk more tomorrow and be friends, k? (and thanks, Jade! You're a sweetie)

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: JadeStar

Oh dear.

Here might be another case where there is a generational divide.

Ekron - I do not think pl3bscheese meant you or I or anyone any harm. They were calling themselves a tranny. While, I personally detest that word and feel it is still a slur I know that there are girls my age and younger who use that word or trap to describe themselves and heard both used affectionately by those with an attraction to trans* women.

It is still a slur if used as a slur but there are those who believe in defusing the power of the slur by using it in a different way. (i know, i know, I hate that too!)

Oh, I know. I really only pointed it out with feigned outrage so that people that might not even be aware it was a slur or derrogatory, would be and I do agree some of my irritation with its use is probably generational as well as regional but I thought the context itself was mocking.

The white dude that goes into "da hood" and starts nigga this and nigga that is gonna get his lily ass whooped good or at laughed at for being such a tool. When a bunch of gay guys call each other fag, queer or homo, it's a traditional slur used as an endearment within a group but when some straight man directs those words toward a gay man, it's usually in a less friendly, buddy buddy sort of way. I hardly think Mr. Cheese was trying to endear me by coopting what is apparently my clan's slang unless he is transsexual and I am unawares?

Well considering that they said this.....

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
People wanna tranny out let them shake it like they want. I like to wear me a mean dress on occasion and strut my stuff. You got a problem with that? Your deal.

I think you may have stopped reading at the t-word. I know I did at first too then I saw the bolded part and was like....Oooohh. Okaaay.

But it really isn't ok to use the t-word in polite company (which is what i feel the term "PC" should stand for btw).

And plrbschees has apologized but I still think we need to see those pictures of them wearing "a mean dress."

I haven't met or been around other women that share our commonality to hang out and shoot the breeze with for at least twenty years up until we bumped into each other here just a few short weeks ago.

I totally understand that *totally*. I remember when I was 16 hanging with that crowd a little bit, because it was comforting knowing there were others like me and the spaces we frequented were 'safe' regardless of whether someone knew my story or not.

Then i outgrew them about a year later.

It's not that I don't understand where they're coming from but, and i will say this and hope I don't offend anyone who may be reading this...

I sometimes feel as though some of those people really identity more with being trans than anything else. I never wanted to be "perpetually trans".

And so while some of those girls and I have some things in common, I never primarily identified with the difference. I wanted to transcend having being born different. So there was always a little bit of a disconnect but that disconnect only grew greater after I had surgery and went off to college, made new friends (most of which don't know the trans part of my personal story) and It's like, I have a fairly normal life now. I'm doing well, I put the difficult stuff in my life behind me.

I still care a great deal about these issues and hope that I always will but I just don't see myself hanging out with lots of other transgendered people on a regular basis unless suddenly my field becomes like a destination for them.

I know that probably sounds kinda bad. I'm not ashamed of them or my own personal story I just don't feel that being a girl born differently should first and foremost be the thing which defines who I am to the world any more than the amount of melanin in my skin should.

I just want to be treated fairly and I know that regardless of having been born differently I still have multiple things people can use discriminate against me in my field: 1) being a woman in science 2) being of mixed ethnicity. So like, why add another if I don't have to?

That's cool, I can be your tranny granny if you like but nobody else better damn well call me that.

I'd never call you that! But I do look up to you like a grandmother because you have lived through so much and you give me insight into things which can only come from having lived the full life which you had. Some of your past might be my future, idk?

But it is certainly cool to know an older lady who started out like me but in a totally different era.

Also keep in mind, I ain't made it this far and been through the things I've been through that anything some jackwad (sorry dude) behind a keyboard says is going to bother me in the least. I may be a sweet mom/grandma type lady but I'm a pretty tough cookie when it's called for and sticks and stones and all that. I even pretend to act like a grownup sometimes.

I soooooooooo admire your strength, courage and resilience. As you and others have said, I've had it easy compared to you.

I only hope that when needed I can be as strong and tough as you are. That word "tranny" caused me a lot of hurt in my short time on this planet so I feel you. I tried to just become a badass and say "f-it, i don't care!" It's one thing to say, another thing to do.

Even back when I tried to be a "badass" so that others wouldn't think things would affect me emotionally so much, I just came off as being cute.....



.....And unfortunately, some people mistake cuteness and kindness for weakness. I "wear my heart on my sleeve" to use an old expression, and probably always will but I know there may come a time I will need your strength and overall badassness.

As we are kind of using this thread as a platform to hopefully be available to help people maybe chill out on some of this alphabet stuff and just discuss things, it should become apparent the LBGTwhateveritis "community" is as full and diverse as any other community with different types of people with differing attitudes and opinions. We are family. We are all unique.

Agreed. Totally. I hope more of the alphabet shows up and shares their perspectives. I know I am curious and have questions about others under that big umbrella.... (sings) "You can stand under my umbrella ela, ela, ey ey ey..."

I'm with you. I would not want to see a blatant penis in the changing room of the gym I go to. I'd feel uncomfortable with someone who claims to need that space to be showing something which at least I know for me personally, prior to surgery, I took great care *never* to show. I am not sure I can understand why anyone wouldn't take the same care unless they just are completely socially oblivious.



LMFAO...This penis in the bathroom argument coming out of the dissenting camp in ingenious and desperate at best. Despite having no sexual use for it or emotional attachment to it I am perfectly fine with my body and if someone doesn't like it they shouldn't look. I had to get comfortable with my own nakedness and others while showering with 30+ angry, sweaty and dirty recruits in boot camp. That being said I have enough class, tact and etiquette to never unleash the beast (sorry couldn't help it he he) in the company of natural born women not that I would ever de-clothe in a public setting. No thank you I will wait till I get home as to avoid a national and potentially embarrassing incident because of some prude with a loud mouth.

Hi Princess! Glad you are here but I'm a little confused and maybe even concerned a bit by your post.

I went to bed and hit the board one last time on my phone, saw your post and came back out to the computer to reply. I can't tell if you are upset or what is going on but I'd like to find out. I'm hoping you can help me get what you're saying?

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
LMFAO...This penis in the bathroom argument coming out of the dissenting camp in ingenious and desperate at best.

Okay, we've heard this in the media and it has been thrown at us in some of the other threads so the notion of this has been put into the minds of the people and why it was being discussed. Posters in this thread have brought up the issue as well. Who exactly are your calling the dissenting camp? So far in this discussion, we've managed to avoid falling into the left/right, liberal/conservative pitfall and I'm hoping we don't go that route. It's later than late and I'm pretty dense but is that where you were going?

Despite having no sexual use for it or emotional attachment to it I am perfectly fine with my body and if someone doesn't like it they shouldn't look.

Huh? Are you talking about the penis in the bathroom thing? Where will you be when someone shouldn't look? I simply can't suss out what you're going for here?

I had to get comfortable with my own nakedness and others while showering with 30+ angry, sweaty and dirty recruits in boot camp.

I've never had such an experience and again, am just too thick right now to get your point. I'm sorry.

That being said I have enough class, tact and etiquette to never unleash the beast (sorry couldn't help it he he) in the company of natural born women not that I would ever de-clothe in a public setting.

That's appreciated, I'm sure. It would be polite and respectful to do so and I don't think anyone would think you would. Was there any particular meaning or intent by saying "natural born women"? I didn't take it that there was. But should I have?

No thank you I will wait till I get home as to avoid a national and potentially embarrassing incident because of some prude with a loud mouth.

Is this in reference to the story that made the rounds about the incident in the fitness center and the prude with a loud mouth that complained the one that was expelled from the facility or something else? You seem to be hurt or angry and not your usual self. I'm so puzzled by your post

If I'm just in a sleep deprived haze and not thinking well enough to grasp what you're saying, that would be understandable but if something is going on for you Princess and you want to talk or anything. U2U me. Please.

I'll just keep my mouth shut and let those that are more eloquent do the championing of civil rights and equality as I just laugh in the shadows awaiting orders. I am more of a soldier than politician after all and when in certain moods love to fight if and just for the sake of it.

a reply to: EKron

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I'll just keep my mouth shut and let those that are more eloquent do the championing of civil rights and equality as I just laugh in the shadows awaiting orders. I am more of a soldier than politician after all and when in certain moods love to fight if and just for the sake of it.

a reply to: EKron

Okay, now you're just being creepy. You know I've complimented you before on how well you've handled some very ugly situations with really nasty people and kept your cool. Now you're Rambo waiting for orders to fight? I don't get it.

Have some cookies and milk and bongs and join the conversation. Have a ((hug)) too.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I'll just keep my mouth shut and let those that are more eloquent do the championing of civil rights and equality

Just want to say that I understood your post perfectly and some of us (not me) are more eloquent at this kind of thing than others are. Clearly, Ekron and JadeStar (you both rock!) are eloquent beyond my capability, to bring light to the issues and inform people. I'm not even LGBT (but a strong ally) and I can't help sticking my nose in and sometimes flying off the handle at those who have issues with LGBT.

That being said, I think this just goes to show that not all LGBT people are going to have the same perspective and will deal with questions differently. Hell, I starred the post of the person who used the T-word, because 1. I didn't know that word was offensive. And 2. I thought they DID wear dresses now and then and was speaking out for the right to do so! LOL!

For what it's worth, I don't think you should "sit in in the shadows"... I've really enjoyed your input on the boards since you joined.

This thread is what we need more of, for those who are curious.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Time and place dude.
Better to err on the side of caution.

I know I came off as a little harsh, but for many people the term has negative connotations....sometimes it's better to swallow ones pride than turn a misunderstanding into a huge OT fight about linguistics and implied meaning. Inflection is hard to discern over the internet. I know you meant no offense initially, but other members don't know you like I do and it's better to be kind to realistic sensitivities than falling into the trap of stereotypical responses and combative argumentation. I know there are a lot of folks out there who play that card irrationally, but I really don't feel this was the right time or place to accuse others of pulling the irrational victim card.

No hard feelings I hope.

a reply to: EKron

I totally follow. I'm a rather "handsome woman" and kinda have a somewhat masculine air about myself, even though I'm a total girl when you get underneath the unconscious mannerisms. The nice thing about being the "tomboy" is that once I have made friendly eye-contact with the ladies in the restroom and proceed to go about my business, all the initial stares and sizing up is forgotten. They know I've got their back if need be.

As long as we all keep our guards up when strangers approach until an "all clear" is given, and continue to teach our kids about Stranger Danger we'll probably be alright for the most part. Plus, anyone who knows how protective women are about children and their loved ones would have to be an absolute loony to try anything nefarious in the Ladies Room.

ALSO :
A good way to get chewing gum out of hair is massaging in peanut butter to loosen the gummy tangle. Some even recommend WD-40. It's been a while since I've had gum in my hair, but I remember it being an absolute nightmare!


a reply to: JadeStar

I just sometimes throw out worst case scenarios as a form of preventative maintenance.

The last thing any of us need is more intrusive technologies and wasted tax-dollars on "security systems" that we can be more effective in doing ourselves just by remaining alert and aware of our environments. There are already CCTV cameras installed outside of many public restrooms to make sure shifty people aren't preying on innocents.

After a good night's sleep the best defenses I could come up with are self-defense classes, purse friendly disarming techniques (pepper spray, those little key fobs that double as defense weapons, lighter and hairspray), rape whistles or tiny air horns and a good strong voice to call for help for oneself or someone else if nothing else.

I hope I didn't go overboard expressing concerns in the manner by which I did. Like I said, I detest violence and aggression against good people and sometimes get a little hyper-vigilant trying to cover all the concerns that sometimes spring to mind when I hear these types of issues being addressed casually in mainstream and alternative new sources.

On one hand it's me trying to address issues that well-meaning but woefully inexperienced persons might have when dealing with this kind of subject matter, and I thank you all immensely for bringing such a strong perspective to the table on this topic.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

You do fine.

Eloquence, and lack of same, come to think on it, comes in many forms.

I've read most of your posts on this topic, and others; and I understand you just fine.

You do fine.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Just want to say that I understood your post perfectly and some of us (not me) are more eloquent at this kind of thing than others are. Clearly, Ekron and JadeStar (you both rock!) are eloquent beyond my capability, to bring light to the issues and inform people. I'm not even LGBT (but a strong ally) and I can't help sticking my nose in and sometimes flying off the handle at those who have issues with LGBT.

Having been on both sides of "discussions" with you over the years we've been here...

You do fine, too.

Eloquence, however you define it, means little in comparison to the passion of your beliefs. IMHO, eloquence is over rated. If I have to choose one over the other? I'll take passion every time.

a reply to: JadeStar

I know that probably sounds kinda bad. I'm not ashamed of them or my own personal story I just don't feel that being a girl born differently should first and foremost be the thing which defines who I am to the world any more than the amount of melanin in my skin should.

Why would it sound bad? You have your own life to live. ...and from the sounds of it, you're doin' just fine.

I was kinda down today and then I saw this story.... Freakin' awesome! As a former Girl Scout of Western Washington I can say that at least the Western Washington Girl Scouts always have been very open to transgender girls joining. I don't think they even had an official policy when I was was accepted. And I can't say I ever had a bad experience with them. They just accepted me.

I credit them and my experience as a scout for helping me have some sense of normality in my formative years. They also helped foster my interests in science during those years too! I've never been as proud to say I was a Girl Scout as I am today:

Girl Scouts return $100,000 check to anti-trans donor

Girl Scouts return $100,000 check to anti-trans donor


Upon returning the money, council CEO Megan Ferland said to Seattle Met:

"Girl Scouts is for every girl and every girl should have the opportunity to be a Girl Scout if she wants to."

Unfortunately, such a large donation doesn't come around too often. The organization could have used the money to send 500 disadvantaged Girl Scouts to summer camp. However, the organization's values take precedent. Instead of accepting the donation, the Girl Scouts of Western Washington have launched an Indiegogo fundraiser. They stated:
"$100,000 is a lot of money. In fact, it's almost a third of our entire financial assistance program for this year—and girls need this support now. That's why losing the gift is such a big deal."


The Girl Scouts of Western Washington hope to raise back the $100,000 in the right way through their #ForEVERYGirl Campaign. Their statement continues:

"Our vision at Girl Scouts of Western Washington is that EVERY girl in our region — regardless of her race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, sexual orientation, gender identity or geographic location — is empowered to unleash her potential, build her future and transform her world."

I just made a nice donation to their Indigogo campaign..

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: JadeStar

I know that probably sounds kinda bad. I'm not ashamed of them or my own personal story I just don't feel that being a girl born differently should first and foremost be the thing which defines who I am to the world any more than the amount of melanin in my skin should.

Why would it sound bad? You have your own life to live. ...and from the sounds of it, you're doin' just fine.

I guess it would sound bad to some who have more of an, idk if activist is the right word but those who feel that we shouldn't have to hide our birth status.

Sometimes they take that too far (imho) and think those of us that just go about our lives blending into society without drawing attention to trans issues on a regular basis are either ashamed of ourselves, ashamed of them, don't care about trans issues or that we are like some of the black people who would pass the "Brown Paper Bag" test in the old south.

I'm like whatever... i just want to get on with my life.

originally posted by: EKron]

Oops! Edit to add - I just reread this and it may have come across a little more uppity than I intended? It's 3:30 AM for cryin' out loud and I should have been in bed hours ago.

So now YOU'RE the one keeping astronomer's hours Ekron?

Sorry, let's all talk more tomorrow and be friends, k? (and thanks, Jade! You're a sweetie)

k, and thank you

a reply to: JadeStar

I guess it would sound bad to some who have more of an, idk if activist is the right word but those who feel that we shouldn't have to hide our birth status.

You shouldn't have to hide it. But... I can see why some might be uncomfortable putting it out there. It's not something I can really understand...I've never really run into the sorts of discrimination that you, and others, have or will run into.

Someday, and I take this as a matter of faith, this will change. Not might change. Will. Maybe not today, or even tomorrow, but it will. Maybe within your lifetime, as you're a young-un. I'm a tad bit older, but I've seen remarkable changes in society in my lifetime as regards matters of civil rights. So, I know it will happen.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES

I just sometimes throw out worst case scenarios as a form of preventative maintenance.

The last thing any of us need is more intrusive technologies and wasted tax-dollars on "security systems" that we can be more effective in doing ourselves just by remaining alert and aware of our environments. There are already CCTV cameras installed outside of many public restrooms to make sure shifty people aren't preying on innocents.

Agreed.

After a good night's sleep the best defenses I could come up with are self-defense classes, purse friendly disarming techniques (pepper spray, those little key fobs that double as defense weapons, lighter and hairspray), rape whistles or tiny air horns and a good strong voice to call for help for oneself or someone else if nothing else.

I've carried pepper spray and whistle in my bag since forever. I also tend to be hyper-aware of my surroundings as you might have imagined I might be as the youngest in the family who has wonderful older sisters.

And i do want to enroll in a self-defense class at some point in the near future.

I hope I didn't go overboard expressing concerns in the manner by which I did. Like I said, I detest violence and aggression against good people and sometimes get a little hyper-vigilant trying to cover all the concerns that sometimes spring to mind when I hear these types of issues being addressed casually in mainstream and alternative new sources.

I think the problem is the mainstream media is always out for "shock value" and uses scare tactics to boost hits and ratings. It get's people to "Tune in at 6 for a story you might want to hear to protect your children". Whether a fear is a legitimate one or an imagined one usually is inconsequential. All that matters are the number they draw.

This can be especially damaging when dealing with issues involving, marginalized or already feared/untrusted groups. Which tbh, it seems transgender people in this country still, largely are.

On one hand it's me trying to address issues that well-meaning but woefully inexperienced persons might have when dealing with this kind of subject matter, and I thank you all immensely for bringing such a strong perspective to the table on this topic.

You're so very welcome. This is exactly the kind of question and polite approach to asking it we all had hope for.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: JadeStar

I guess it would sound bad to some who have more of an, idk if activist is the right word but those who feel that we shouldn't have to hide our birth status.

You shouldn't have to hide it. But... I can see why some might be uncomfortable putting it out there. It's not something I can really understand...I've never really run into the sorts of discrimination that you, and others, have or will run into.

Someday, and I take this as a matter of faith, this will change. Not might change. Will. Maybe not today, or even tomorrow, but it will. Maybe within your lifetime, as you're a young-un. I'm a tad bit older, but I've seen remarkable changes in society in my lifetime as regards matters of civil rights. So, I know it will happen.

I certainly hope so. I am in very optimistic about the future in general.

That said, I also feel strongly that people will have much greater concerns in the future that worries about which bathroom a trans person might use will seem quaint and silly by comparison.