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Liberal Bigotry

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posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:31 AM
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originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: beezzer
I just don't wish to see religious freedoms lost as a result.


Religious freedom is a protected right.
The problem is that some seem to think it's "religious freedom" to discriminate and abuse others, force their religious views onto the society around them, and generally inflict their draconian attitudes onto others in any way they can.

The entire same sex marriage debate is a great example of this, because while the Conservative Christian is fighting against that basic equality, they claim marriage somehow belongs to them (it doesn't), and that their specific view of marriage is the one and only "traditional" one (it isn't), and that somehow they have a stake in the decision to allow others to marry (they don't).

Libertarians cannot possibly argue against same sex marriage, that's an oxymoron. A person cannot claim to be a Libertarian while working against the rights of other free people, when those rights have absolutely no impact on their own lives. They are not in the slightest affected by same sex marriage, so any true Libertarian would have to agree that allowing all the same rights is the correct thing.

If they do campaign against it, they are not Libertarians at all, they're fundamentalists wanting to maintain a Christian hegemony over society, regardless of the fact that it doesn't affect their rights and freedoms at all.

The time to campaign against the "erosion of religious freedom" is when that religious freedom is actually being threatened. It's not being threatened at all in America, and anyone claiming it is has been listening to far too much right-wing paranoia radio.

While I don't agree with this...I will explain it. But frankly I'm surprised if anyone doesn't understand this already. Religious people of which I am not one...some feel being gay is gross and others feel that it is against the wishes of their God. The view the word "marriage" as a religious word which is sanctioned by their God. So...by their opinion and by their God, they believe being gay is wrong. Simple...right?

Now...lets see how this flies. If the church called marriage, "marriage" and the state sanctioned marriage was called a "civil union"...the church wouldn't have such a problem with it. They wouldn't like it...but it wouldn't be taking the name they feel they own and using it to insult their God. And if I remember right...a civil union was once proposed and it included all the same rights as marriage. Just a different word meaning it was recognized by the state and not the church. But the gay community would have nothing to do with that. They wanted "marriage". My personal belief is that they wanted to stick it in the face of the church and everyone else because that is how people are...including gay people. Sometimes in some cases even more so.

So...that is my opinion of why.




posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:34 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
So ... is everyone a bigot? Liberals, conservatives, moderates?

If we're all "bigots" what does that say about us?


No, we're not all bigots. A bigot can't handle opposition.

If you have been checking into this thread regularly and enjoying a discussion with people, even people of opposing viewpoints, then you aren't a bigot. You are merely someone who can agree to disagree with others in a reasonable manner and understand that in learning to see why we differ we learn things about each other and ourselves.

The bigots are the people who check in once, drop a bunch of nasty names about one side or the other to confirm or deny the title and never come back. They can't handle opposition. They are intolerant which the very definition of being a bigot. See the very first page.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:37 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

You make all these claims about liberals abandoning morals, lying, cheating, stealing, and all sorts of nastiness but neglect the fact that most political conservatives have done the same thing.

Then you give some shaky reasoning as to why you vote Republican. You sound just like a Republican cheerleader.

And that is your opinion. You can read my various posts here and see how often I've condemned lying...especially in politics. My opinion, based upon what I've seen in my 50 years of life is that while all politicians (for the most part) lie, the liberals have made a religion of it. I don't think I need to throw out examples...I've already mentioned Harry Reid and there are others like Hillary Clinton, Obama and many more. But again...my experience based opinion.

But yes...the right lie quite well also. But they are the grasshopper to the master.

And how my logic is shaky I don't really follow. Like it or not, you often have to fight fire with fire. If your opposition is using the big guns, you don't bring a pea-shooter. What do they also say..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Yes...at least for me it has come to that. Not that I wanted it to...I would prefer to vote for the person I actually want instead of the one who I think will do battle better with the opposition.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:42 AM
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originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

You make all these claims about liberals abandoning morals, lying, cheating, stealing, and all sorts of nastiness but neglect the fact that most political conservatives have done the same thing.

Then you give some shaky reasoning as to why you vote Republican. You sound just like a Republican cheerleader.

And that is your opinion. You can read my various posts here and see how often I've condemned lying...especially in politics. My opinion, based upon what I've seen in my 50 years of life is that while all politicians (for the most part) lie, the liberals have made a religion of it. I don't think I need to throw out examples...I've already mentioned Harry Reid and there are others like Hillary Clinton, Obama and many more. But again...my experience based opinion.


Lol the Christian right literally INVENTED history to claim that the nation is a Christian nation. I don't know how much more deceitful you can get.

The Myth Of A 'Christian Nation'

Oh that's RIGHT! They have also funded scientists to disprove both evolution AND Climate Change and push anti-science rhetoric like it is truth.
Why Climate Change Skeptics and Evolution Deniers Joined Forces

More examples of you political cheerleading. Going by our previous discussions and this conversation, I don't think you can be politically honest about Republicans.


But yes...the right lie quite well also. But they are the grasshopper to the master.


Uh huh...


And how my logic is shaky I don't really follow. Like it or not, you often have to fight fire with fire. If your opposition is using the big guns, you don't bring a pea-shooter. What do they also say..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Yes...at least for me it has come to that. Not that I wanted it to...I would prefer to vote for the person I actually want instead of the one who I think will do battle better with the opposition.


Whatever helps you sleep at night. For the record, I disagree with your wife. I don't think you are Libertarian. I think you are a Fox News Republican.
edit on 30-6-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:42 AM
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a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Just so.

Like it or not, God started the so-called Christian hatred by defining marriage for us in the Old Testament, and then he had the very Gaul to come back redefine it during Christ's ministry when Christ further taught marriage as between man and woman. So leaving any and all other scriptural references to homosexuality aside, for a practicing and sincere in their faith Christian, what a marriage is is clear. It is defined by God and later Christ as between a man and a woman.

I can be as libertarian as I want, but God's laws supersede the laws of man for me when it comes to faith. Some things cannot be re-ordered in my heart, and that's one of them. If it comes to choosing between God and man, I must choose God. So in this case, what two men or two women do in their own lives is no concern of mine, true ... until they come into my life and try to compel me to either approve of it or participate in it. And then God has to take precedence.

If the two men and two women would leave me alone to go my own way, which is what libertarianism is supposed to be about, then we can survive and tolerate one another in society. There is room for both. However, the way things are going, there is precious little tolerance for my end of the equation which is principled dissent.

The poster you responded to very early in the thread signaled that he believes that social might makes right, so since social opinion is currently on the side of gays, he thinks they should be able to force any and all aspects of their agenda on all of us. That is as anti-libertarian as he wants to accuse me and mine of being.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:44 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
So ... is everyone a bigot? Liberals, conservatives, moderates?

If we're all "bigots" what does that say about us?


No, we're not all bigots. A bigot can't handle opposition.

If you have been checking into this thread regularly and enjoying a discussion with people, even people of opposing viewpoints, then you aren't a bigot. You are merely someone who can agree to disagree with others in a reasonable manner and understand that in learning to see why we differ we learn things about each other and ourselves.

The bigots are the people who check in once, drop a bunch of nasty names about one side or the other to confirm or deny the title and never come back. They can't handle opposition. They are intolerant which the very definition of being a bigot. See the very first page.

Well said! On the same lines...I believe you, and definitely I am willing to discuss and debate differing views. But often those we debate with start in with the "your idiotic view", etc. At that point...they become the bigot (eg. intolerant toward those holding different opinions). But we may at that point walk away from the debate because there is no sense in debating a bigot. So they get the last word.

Linking that back to what I've been saying here...how you debate is more important than winning a debate, especially if you consider winning as getting in the last word.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:48 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

What is anti-Libertarian is pushing gay marriage bans as legal. THAT is anti-Libertarian. As a Libertarian against gay marriage, your primary position from the beginning should have been to take marriage out of the hands of the state like greencmp always says. That just tells me you aren't a true Libertarian like you like to constantly accuse me of being.
edit on 30-6-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:52 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Just so.

Like it or not, God started the so-called Christian hatred by defining marriage for us in the Old Testament, and then he had the very Gaul to come back redefine it during Christ's ministry when Christ further taught marriage as between man and woman. So leaving any and all other scriptural references to homosexuality aside, for a practicing and sincere in their faith Christian, what a marriage is is clear. It is defined by God and later Christ as between a man and a woman.

I can be as libertarian as I want, but God's laws supersede the laws of man for me when it comes to faith. Some things cannot be re-ordered in my heart, and that's one of them. If it comes to choosing between God and man, I must choose God. So in this case, what two men or two women do in their own lives is no concern of mine, true ... until they come into my life and try to compel me to either approve of it or participate in it. And then God has to take precedence.

If the two men and two women would leave me alone to go my own way, which is what libertarianism is supposed to be about, then we can survive and tolerate one another in society. There is room for both. However, the way things are going, there is precious little tolerance for my end of the equation which is principled dissent.

The poster you responded to very early in the thread signaled that he believes that social might makes right, so since social opinion is currently on the side of gays, he thinks they should be able to force any and all aspects of their agenda on all of us. That is as anti-libertarian as he wants to accuse me and mine of being.


And I support you and your beliefs. I was raised Catholic and had a "falling out". I'll spare you the long story. But I believe your beliefs are just as valid as anyone else's. Your belief in God is no less important than someone else's belief in gay marriage (for example). You will never find me calling you an "idiot" or "stupid" just because you believe differently than me. Isn't that what is supposed to make America so great?...diversity...tolerance?

So just between you and I
While others call you and your beliefs intolerant or stupid...they are doing nothing more in my opinion that PROVING it is actually them who are intolerant. And from your level-headed posts here, I can't see how anyone would argue that.

What they don't understand is that in the pursuit of equality and fairness, they have thrown equality and fairness to YOU out the window. I would love to say "forgive them, for they know not what they do"...but they do know what they do. In fact...it is their modus operandi.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 07:55 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

You make all these claims about liberals abandoning morals, lying, cheating, stealing, and all sorts of nastiness but neglect the fact that most political conservatives have done the same thing.

Then you give some shaky reasoning as to why you vote Republican. You sound just like a Republican cheerleader.

And that is your opinion. You can read my various posts here and see how often I've condemned lying...especially in politics. My opinion, based upon what I've seen in my 50 years of life is that while all politicians (for the most part) lie, the liberals have made a religion of it. I don't think I need to throw out examples...I've already mentioned Harry Reid and there are others like Hillary Clinton, Obama and many more. But again...my experience based opinion.


Lol the Christian right literally INVENTED history to claim that the nation is a Christian nation. I don't know how much more deceitful you can get.

The Myth Of A 'Christian Nation'

Oh that's RIGHT! They have also funded scientists to disprove both evolution AND Climate Change and push anti-science rhetoric like it is truth.
Why Climate Change Skeptics and Evolution Deniers Joined Forces

More examples of you political cheerleading. Going by our previous discussions and this conversation, I don't think you can be politically honest about Republicans.


But yes...the right lie quite well also. But they are the grasshopper to the master.


Uh huh...


And how my logic is shaky I don't really follow. Like it or not, you often have to fight fire with fire. If your opposition is using the big guns, you don't bring a pea-shooter. What do they also say..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Yes...at least for me it has come to that. Not that I wanted it to...I would prefer to vote for the person I actually want instead of the one who I think will do battle better with the opposition.


Whatever helps you sleep at night. For the record, I disagree with your wife. I don't think you are Libertarian. I think you are a Fox News Republican.

Well...considering your opinion about my political beliefs are based upon chats on ATS and my wife has been with me for thirty years sharing everything including two daughters and lots of trials and tribulations...forgive me for siding with her opinion.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:01 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

You make all these claims about liberals abandoning morals, lying, cheating, stealing, and all sorts of nastiness but neglect the fact that most political conservatives have done the same thing.

Then you give some shaky reasoning as to why you vote Republican. You sound just like a Republican cheerleader.

And that is your opinion. You can read my various posts here and see how often I've condemned lying...especially in politics. My opinion, based upon what I've seen in my 50 years of life is that while all politicians (for the most part) lie, the liberals have made a religion of it. I don't think I need to throw out examples...I've already mentioned Harry Reid and there are others like Hillary Clinton, Obama and many more. But again...my experience based opinion.


Lol the Christian right literally INVENTED history to claim that the nation is a Christian nation. I don't know how much more deceitful you can get.

The Myth Of A 'Christian Nation'

Oh that's RIGHT! They have also funded scientists to disprove both evolution AND Climate Change and push anti-science rhetoric like it is truth.
Why Climate Change Skeptics and Evolution Deniers Joined Forces

More examples of you political cheerleading. Going by our previous discussions and this conversation, I don't think you can be politically honest about Republicans.


But yes...the right lie quite well also. But they are the grasshopper to the master.


Uh huh...


And how my logic is shaky I don't really follow. Like it or not, you often have to fight fire with fire. If your opposition is using the big guns, you don't bring a pea-shooter. What do they also say..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Yes...at least for me it has come to that. Not that I wanted it to...I would prefer to vote for the person I actually want instead of the one who I think will do battle better with the opposition.


Whatever helps you sleep at night. For the record, I disagree with your wife. I don't think you are Libertarian. I think you are a Fox News Republican.

Oh...what the hell!

I am for gay rights...just not the way they have been achieved.
I am not against abortion in any situation.
I am opposed to war except when there is no other response.
I am for small federal government.
I am for small businesses as opposed to large corporations.
I am in favor or being responsible for oneself and for your own actions.
I believe the people of the USA are far more important than the government.
I believe we can all get along...if we try.
I believe everyone is born equal...their life choices may change that over time.
I think the death penalty is sad...we should actually try to rehabilitate instead of punish.
I'm all for legalizing pot...before tonight if possible


Does that help?

PS: Oops! Probably an important one. I don't believe in God and I think religion is man-made and therefore flawed.
edit on 6/30/2015 by WeAreAWAKE because: PS



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:33 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

How is MY marriage intolerant of YOUR beliefs?

How is MY marriage denying YOU religious (or any other kind of belief)?

You said it yourself: people don't agree with each other, pure and simple.

If you don't believe in same-sex marriage, don't get one.

But don't try to enforce YOUR beliefs on MY life, and I'll do the same.
edit on 8Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:34:54 -050015p082015666 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:36 AM
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a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

How should equal rights (for gays) have been achieved?

Should we have waited until everyone just said "okay, we'll let you be equal"?

#neverwouldhavehappened



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:42 AM
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a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Ok then why aren't you for taking marriage out of government altogether? Why is preventing gays from marrying more important than that?

You think that taking unfair advantages away from Christians in the states is being intolerant to them, when in reality it is just evening the playing field.

Complaining about people being intolerant of bigots while excusing the words and actions of the bigots.

These are all Republican ideals guy.

I wonder if your wife knows what REAL Libertarianism is. REAL Libertarians aren't against gay marriage, but their solution is supposed to differ from Republican or Tea Party solutions. Take marriage out of the government. REAL Libertarians aren't against abortion. They would be for a woman's right to choose. REAL Libertarians are against the Drug War, against the war on terror, for isolationism. For the 2nd Amendment. For fiscally conservancy. For stricter interpretation of the Constitution (including tax law). A REAL Libertarian would be against Republican intrusions on liberty JUST as much as they are against Democrat ones.

By the way, yes, I understand that you are for some of the things above, but I know I've argued against you for other points.

Libertarianism is socially Liberal and fiscally conservative. Just honoring the conservative side of Libertarianism doesn't make you a Libertarian. It just makes you a Tea Party Republican.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:45 AM
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I've found that Liberals are just nasty and indecent in their responses, or criticisms. Conservatives are usually more creative in hiding the nastiness in their words, but it's there none the less, just done in a different way.

I think Conservatives are just trying to be too polite, and not "step down to the level" of a Liberal. And they take offense to personal attacks when discussing a national issue.

Liberals do tend to be the more whiny type, and tend to lash out with a lot of distasteful insults. Sorry, but it's true. Even Liberal people like Bill Mahr and Jerry Seinfeld are finally seeing that. It's just going too far.

Then if a Conservative does the same, they are immediately called a bigot, or racist, or any other derogatory name.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it, both here, and among my friends.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:50 AM
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a reply to: poncho1982

Yep. Switch liberal with conservative and you have a very apt description of my own experience.

Isn't that interesting?



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: AboveBoard
Each of the examples are States' Rights and therefore left up to each individual state to legislate. Of course most people do not know the only control ? that the Feds have over the states is to oversee interstate trade and defense of those states. Of course it is very evident our current Administration has a very deep loathing of anything left to the States and to the Constitution that guides this country if it doesnt go along with what they want.
And . if anything deals with states' rights , it is not in the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. To get there a decision has to be made by local circuit courts and then appealed all the way there . The main thing in these cases are if whether or not there was a popular vote taken in those states. If so , that should weigh completely on whether or not the issue can be appealed. A definite miscarriage of justice and a total disregard for the Constitution.


edit on 30-6-2015 by Gothmog because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 09:09 AM
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a reply to: Gothmog

Except for, you know, what the Constitution actually says ...



This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.


COTUS, Article VI, Clause 2



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 09:16 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Gothmog

Except for, you know, what the Constitution actually says ...



This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.



COTUS, Article VI, Clause 2


I hope you are backing me up. Because what you just posted just attested to my post . That the Constitution is the law of the land......sheesh...
edit on 30-6-2015 by Gothmog because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 09:19 AM
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originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Gothmog

Except for, you know, what the Constitution actually says ...



This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

I hope you are backing me up. Because what you just posted just attested to my post . That the Constitution is the law of the land......sheesh...

COTUS, Article VI, Clause 2


COTUS, being the supreme law of the land, also states


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people


Thus, COTUS, the supreme law of the land, tell us that if a specific power or duty is not given to the federal government than that issue is relegated to the states. If COTUS doesn't say the feds are supposed to mess with it, then the feds aren't supposed to mess with it.



posted on Jun, 30 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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a reply to: Gothmog

No, I don't think I'm "backing you up."

You're claiming that State law is superior to Federal law.

It is not. The only way that could be true is if the Federal law were proven to be unconstitutional.

The majority of the "State's Rights" argument is a fiction based on a gross misreading of the Tenth Amendment.



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