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Christians FOR Gay Marriage... they are and always have been

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posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 03:53 PM
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a reply to: boymonkey74

Thank you. Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm more than a little surprised and bemused at where this discussion has gone. I knew as I wrote it that I wasn't writing it for the benefit of the LGBT community. They obviously don't need my or anyone's Christian approval or permission to live their lives; and Gay Christians have probably already given this far more thought and study than I, so I doubt I'm telling them anything new. I just really wanted a different perspective presented -- reflective of the love of Jesus -- not to convince anyone or change anyone's mind.

Now I'm more disturbed at the Christian bullying I see both in this thread and in the national debate, and it's becoming clear that this is indeed a fight for religious rights -- everyone's religious rights -- from those who would force their religion on others under color of law.

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." – Benjamin Franklin




posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 04:16 PM
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My opinion is that love is love and marriage is celebrating the union of souls and not the flesh.
The soul is asexual, it's our human bodies that dictate who we are attracted to but that is irrelevant when 2 souls combine in the union of marriage.
So in my opinion human sexual orientation should not matter when it comes to marriage. It's more of an abomination that people marry when they don't love each other.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 04:34 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea
quote]
Yup, I sure do. That's why the God Lord gave me a brain to think and reason. I eat shellfish too.... but I've never sold my daughter into slavery. What I know for an absolute certainty is that it is not YOUR job to pick and choose what I believe.

I believe you were the one spouting love and Jesus as though to teach that Jesus approved of homosexuality and other sexual perversions. You have not addressed the theological discussion that Jesus also taught punishment in hell for sexual perversions such as homosexuality. You're a hypocrite and don't even understand agape love. Better get a good teacher before it's too late.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 04:37 PM
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a reply to: Seede




You have not addressed the theological discussion that Jesus also taught punishment in hell for sexual perversions such as homosexuality.


Please cite, if you would be so kind, the scriptures that have Jesus condemning people to to Hell for the sin of homosexuality.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 05:12 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: JohnFisher


It is not a question of opinion. Homosexuality is sin. Currently, you are the false teacher. To deny it as sinful is to reject the sovereign word and authority of God. It is clear. It simply is.

Nope!
It simply is a question of opinion.
That is the truth.
Get over it.
If you aren't engaging in anything you see as "clearly, simply sin", then don't worry about it. Leave everyone else alone. Your self-styled "judgment" is unwelcome.



Believing the word is a matter of opinion, but whether or not homosexuality is sinful according the scriptures is not opinion. It is. One can certainly discern that. If correcting a falsely held belief about biblical teaching is unwelcome, then I suppose I would rather not be part of the discussion anyway.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 05:20 PM
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originally posted by: Seede

I believe you were the one spouting love and Jesus as though to teach that Jesus approved of homosexuality and other sexual perversions.


You believe wrong. Please re-read all of my responses. I can only speak to my understanding of Jesus' teachings, and there are no scriptures whatsoever in any of the gospels in which Jesus condemns homosexuality, so I do not believe that Jesus condemned homosexuality. I "spouted" love and Jesus, because this is a Christian discussion, so it's all about Jesus and Jesus was all about love so... you get the point, whether you want to believe it or not. But the commandment to love one another is clearly and unequivocally about how we treat each other; that may or may not include same-sex romantic love. I don't know. But I do know it includes how we treat homosexuals.


You have not addressed the theological discussion that Jesus also taught punishment in hell for sexual perversions such as homosexuality.


Nope. And I'm sure as hell not going to just because you want to bully and berate me. Get over it.


You're a hypocrite and don't even understand agape love. Better get a good teacher before it's too late.


Haha! Okay.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 05:40 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: JohnFisher
a reply to: Boadicea

You keep turning this into an altogether different discussion.


Nope. The OP -- and therefore the discussion -- is about Christians for gay marriage, myself specifically and others in general. I have not strayed from that. You keep telling me I'm wrong... okay.


It is not a question of opinion. Homosexuality is sin.


Faith, by definition, is based on opinion. Not fact. Nor can you cite one scripture in which Jesus condemned homosexuality. But I can cite many in which Jesus told us to love one another, even sinners, and in which He told us not to judge others. Fact, not opinion.


Currently, you are the false teacher.


I am not teaching anything. I am expressing my understanding of the scriptures. Everyone is free to reject or further study for themselves. Just as I am free to reject your understanding of the scriptures. Both under God's laws and Organic Law.


To deny it as sinful is to reject the sovereign word and authority of God. It is clear. It simply is.... [snip] ... You are wrong. Disagree all you will, but it is the truth.


So you keep saying... And I will keep saying: You have every right to believe as you will. You do not have the right to force your beliefs on me or anyone else. Period.


You do keep changing the discussion. You keep implying that I force my beliefs on other, or you turn this from "Christians supporting gay marriage" to politics.

The only thing I have said in regards to the legalization of same-sex marriage is that I don't necessarily mind the decision because (in agreement with you) God Himself gave us free will to choose between life and sin. I never espoused hate speech toward gays, yet you heavily imply that I am a bigot, and you keep taking the conversation in the implied direction of 'I must be a bigot who forced my beliefs on others.'

You are teaching. You are teaching that many Christians are supportive of homosexuality, and you even provide scripture to lend credence to your way of thinking. The are false teachings that you have; you are the false teacher.

Jesus didn't directly mention many things. He doesn't need to. Again, He says that He didn't come to change one letter of the law. We know that homosexuality falls on the wrong side of said law. Therefore, based off His own teachings, we know that homosexuality must be sin according to the inspired word of God. If one rejects one of His teachings, then reject them all. If one picks and chooses what scripture to believe, then believe none.

I do not condemn any man for his sins. I too have lived in sexual sin. I too was guilty of sexual deviance, and sometimes I still stumble. How can I condemn any man of something I too am guilty of? In repentance I can certainly discern. I certainly can judge the sin, though the sin will never affect my love for the person. But, in love, the truth should be spoken, and the truth is that according to the scriptures that encompass the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin.

Accepting scripture as the inspired word of God is your right to believe or not. Supporting homosexuality is you'd right. Legally under the state, homosexuals can get married. Legally under God they cannot. Constitutionality is for the state, not for the faith (US constitution).

What you are teaching is not Christian. If anything it is a mixture of Christian beliefs with non-Christian beliefs.

We've come full circle. And they're is no point continuing the discussion any further. You are free to your opinion, but it is not a Christian opinion. And that is the truth.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 05:58 PM
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a reply to: JohnFisher




Jesus didn't directly mention many things. He doesn't need to. Again, He says that He didn't come to change one letter of the law. We know that homosexuality falls on the wrong side of said law.


So does eating shellfish, wearing a wool cotton blend, shaving, sleeping in the same bed as with your wife while she's on her period, etc. Christians don't stone women who weren't virgins on their wedding day, or bratty mouthy teenagers who argue with their parents.

Christian churches perform weddings for divorced persons without condemnation all the time and lovingly accept adulterers, fornicators, liars and money changers into their congregation without rebuke regularly. Seems extremely hypocritical to single out and alienate one kind of perceived indiscretion and not others.


edit on 28-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 06:01 PM
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a reply to: JohnFisher


And they're is no point continuing the discussion any further.


Okay.

I'm glad you took the opportunity to share your perspective -- thank you. I'm sure you speak for many, and it only helped to further define my Christian perspective, based on the teachings of Jesus -- not Moses, not Saul of Tarsus -- but Jesus Himself. In my paradigm, that's about as Christian as it gets.

edit on 28-6-2015 by Boadicea because: formatting



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 06:05 PM
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originally posted by: mclarenmp4
My opinion is that love is love and marriage is celebrating the union of souls and not the flesh.
The soul is asexual, it's our human bodies that dictate who we are attracted to but that is irrelevant when 2 souls combine in the union of marriage.
So in my opinion human sexual orientation should not matter when it comes to marriage. It's more of an abomination that people marry when they don't love each other.


Thank you -- beautifully said!

It speaks to what Jesus taught about no gender -- and no marriage -- in Heaven.

You have given me much to think about. Thank you!



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 06:26 PM
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a reply to: JohnFisher

So what you are saying is that all sinners cannot get married?
If homosexuality is a sin and people can't get married in a house of god because of it, then I would suggest the vast amount of normal married men and women are not married in the eyes of god as they too have sinned and continue to sin, do they not?

The soul is asexual and so the union of marriage transcends the boundaries of human gender. A sinners path can be a long one and some may not redeem themselves in this lifetime. That's why we judge the sin and not the sinners as that only breeds contempt and hostility towards your fellow man, which goes against the teachings of Christ.

I sin on a regular basis and I don't judge others for their transgressions either, I actually empathise with them because I know how tough it is to lead a sin free life. But when i see true love in all forms, it's a beautiful thing.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: JohnFisher




Jesus didn't directly mention many things. He doesn't need to. Again, He says that He didn't come to change one letter of the law. We know that homosexuality falls on the wrong side of said law.


So does eating shellfish, wearing a wool cotton blend, shaving, sleeping in the same bed as with your wife while she's on her period, etc. Christians don't stone women who weren't virgins on their wedding day, or bratty mouthy teenagers who argue with their parents.

Christian churches perform weddings for divorced persons without condemnation all the time and lovingly accept adulterers, fornicators, liars and money changers into their congregation without rebuke regularly. Seems extremely hypocritical to single out and alienate one kind of perceived indiscretion and not others.



This does a good job addressing your first paragraph.
carm.org...

In response to the second paragraph. Churches do and should accept anyone into the congregation, including homosexuals. I don't disagree in the slightest. I don't think that homosexuals should be treated any differently by Christians than anyone else. I have never alienated someone because of their sexual preference, and I don't spend much time rebuking them because it is seldom necessitated or the right scenario for a rebuke. In this instance, the OP needs to be rebuked. I don't know if he is gay or not, and I don't care. Homosexuality in of itself is not my quarrel. As I've already stated, I too am guilty of sexual sin in my past, and I even slip and stumble some along the way. The issue, and warrants a rebuke, is that he promoted homosexuality as being acceptable in Christianity as though it weren't a sin. It is every bit as sinful as lying, stealing, or any other sexual sin. Homosexuality is not singled out for the sake of lambasting specifically and only homosexuality. It is often singled out because it is among the top social issues of our day. There are some who need sharp rebukes for their condemnation of the sinner rather than the sin, e.g., the Westboro Baptist Church. God doesn't hate "fags"; He despises their sins. God doesn't hate liars; He despises their sins.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 07:29 PM
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a reply to: mclarenmp4




So what you are saying is that all sinners cannot get married?
If homosexuality is a sin and people can't get married in a house of god because of it, then I would suggest the vast amount of normal married men and women are not married in the eyes of god as they too have sinned and continue to sin, do they not?


Eh, not exactly.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 07:33 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JohnFisher


And they're is no point continuing the discussion any further.


Okay.

I'm glad you took the opportunity to share your perspective -- thank you. I'm sure you speak for many, and it only helped to further define my Christian perspective, based on the teachings of Jesus -- not Moses, not Saul of Tarsus -- but Jesus Himself. In my paradigm, that's about as Christian as it gets.


Well... It's probably silly to say it again, but you seem sincere in wanting to follow the teachings of Jesus.

"Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-20

This is a teaching from Jesus Himself.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 07:39 PM
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a reply to: JohnFisher

You should think about which "law" Jesus was actually talking about...

It couldn't be the 613 laws in the OT because Jesus broke a few of them himself...

Find out what "the royal law" entails... then you'll be on the right track




posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 08:02 PM
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originally posted by: JohnFisher

Well... It's probably silly to say it again, but you seem sincere in wanting to follow the teachings of Jesus.


Yes, I do. Thank you for understanding that.


- Matthew 5:17-20 -



This is a teaching from Jesus Himself.


Thank you. I am just one fallible human doing my best. Jesus knows my heart. My judgment day will come.
edit on 28-6-2015 by Boadicea because: formatting



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 08:26 PM
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a reply to: windword


Please cite, if you would be so kind, the scriptures that have Jesus condemning people to to Hell for the sin of homosexuality.

Why would you of all deniers of the Christ Jesus want to argue with the Spirit of God? I believe you and I have been over this subject several times but can give you a few examples of scripture from the 1611 KJV bible.

Also may I remind you that once you die in any any un repented sin you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I did not say that a homosexual that has repented from this abomination will be condemned to hell. If that homosexual dies in that sin then he will not enter the kingdom of God according to Jesus and His Apostles. That leaves the only other recourse in Christianity and that would be Sheol or hell.

It is a theological Christian fact (If that is possible) that in the 1611 KJV bible it is plainly stated that Moses is credited as the author of the Torah.

Torah states –
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Jesus is written as saying –
Luke 16:29 -31
(29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
(30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 5:45-47
(45) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. (46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Mat 5:17 -19
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul is recorded as agreeing –
1Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:25-27
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Much more can be verified with Hebrew literature but I believe this will be enough to show what God’ perfect will is.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: JohnFisher





This does a good job addressing your first paragraph.
carm.org...


What a load of garbage! So, let me get this straight, according to your link, we don't stone adulterers and unruly children any more because it's a cultural thing, but adultery and sassy back talk are moral issues?! GET OUTTA TOWN!

Why didn't Jesus wash his hands after touching the sick? Was that just a cultural thing too? Or, were Jesus and friends just making it up as they went along, deciding what laws were important to keep and what laws weren't? Why do you believe it's okay to eliminate God's order of circumcision as "cultural", but maintain that homosexuality is a moral issue? Where's the logic?

Why is it okay to change the mandatory Sabbath from the 7th day, when God rested, to the 6th day, if you feel like it and if it's okay with your boss, but maintain that homosexuality is an abomination?

It used to be just fine for a man to marry as many women as he could afford, because men were supposed to spread their seed and multiply as much as possible. We don't think like that any more, culturally, and we value small families, birth control and women's reproductive choices. We consider it immoral to have children who can't be taken care of or loved.



Churches do and should accept anyone into the congregation, including homosexuals.


If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yes, there are some churches that embrace gay marriage, just like the OP that you're rebuking. I'd imagine you'd also have some words for those pastors.

There are plenty of churches that won't think twice about what goes on with heterosexuals and won't treat them as "sinners" that need to be reproached and corrected for their life style. But the gays stand out in most churches and attract rebuke, correction and you insist that they need to change, end their relationships and remain celibate, while remarried divorcees and couples that are shacking up and living in sin, get a pass. That's just plain old Christian hypocrisy!


edit on 28-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 09:31 PM
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a reply to: kaylaluv




So it's okay if we don't stone our children to death for being disobedient, as long as we accept we are sinners for not doing so?


Forgiving someone was not sinful? The passage you are referring to refers to a glutton and a drunkard. The word we translate glutton is Zalal, and it means "to be worthless, be vile, be insignificant, be light". This refers to a mean and vile person. The parents were not the ones who initiated the stoning that was determined by the priest. But no where does it say someone can not be shown mercy or forgiveness nor does it say it would be sinful to do so.




So we can be as horrible as we want: we can rape and murder women, we can eat the flesh of babies, we can lie, steal, kill and cheat -- as long as we admit we are sinners, we're good with God?


No and I have a feeling your being deliberately obtuse. Paul actually addresses this very issue:




Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: Seede




Please cite, if you would be so kind, the scriptures that have Jesus condemning people to to Hell for the sin of homosexuality.

Why would you of all deniers of the Christ Jesus want to argue with the Spirit of God?


I'm not. I'm arguing the spirit of Christian hypocrisy.


I believe you and I have been over this subject several times but can give you a few examples of scripture from the 1611 KJV bible.


Yep, and you keep quoting Paul, aka Saul of Tarsus, not Jesus, who you clearly claimed stated that homosexuals were condemned to Hell. So, yeah, please do proved the scripture that has Jesus condemning homosexuality.



Also may I remind you that once you die in any any un repented sin you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I did not say that a homosexual that has repented from this abomination will be condemned to hell.


Oh! So homosexual sin is NO DIFFERENT that any other unrepentant sin? So, homosexuality is no more of a sin than, say, the hate and disgust you yourself project onto homosexuals and abominable heathens such as myself?



It is a theological Christian fact (If that is possible) that in the 1611 KJV bible it is plainly stated that Moses is credited as the author of the Torah.


This is, as is the rest of your post, off topic.


edit on 28-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)







 
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