It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Christians FOR Gay Marriage... they are and always have been

page: 3
13
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 09:39 AM
link   
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I am quite familiar with the laws of Leviticus... and Deuteronomy... and Exodus... and, of course, the only commandment that Jesus gave us. I'm one of those crazy people who have actually read the Bible, cover to cover, more than once; as well as many of the "forbidden" books of the Bible, and other extra-canonical texts and manuscripts. I suppose it would be fair to say that we both can read whatever we choose into or out of the Bible. Much the same way the abomination of usury -- which harms people on both an individual and collective basis -- has been excused and explained away by some, even as they cry and whine about what two consenting adults choose to do with and for each other.

However, again, Jesus told us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's. Our Constitution demands due process and equal protection under the law. If the government is going to grant special privileges and "rights" to some, they must be granted to all. The government must also protect and ensure our inalienable right of freedom of religion. So, unlike those Christians who would impose their Christianity on me and others, I will not do the same. You don't need my permission or approval to believe as you wish and act accordingly, nor do gays... Likewise, I neither need nor want your approval or permission to exercise my God-given and Constitutionally protect freedom of faith and conscience.




posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 09:45 AM
link   

originally posted by: Seede

Did he also do away with hell?


I don't know... and neither do you. We don't even know exactly what hell is or isn't or if it ever really was. Jesus doesn't consult us on such matters.


So if He sentences people to hell why would He demand you do something that He would not do?


I cannot speak for Jesus. The best I can do is listen and learn and do my best accordingly.

What I do know is that Jesus did not teach us to hate anyone. Including gays. He taught us to love.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 10:07 AM
link   

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Boadicea



IF it is a sin, it is not a sin against me, and not my place to judge nor justify.

This is the one thing that many Christians seem to forget. Not even the Pope has the right to judge people for their sins that right falls to God alone.


Actually that's false. We all have the right to make judgments, just as long as we remember we will be judged the same way. The ultimate judgment falls on God alone.

Mind showing where it says in the bible that you have the right to judge people? Jesus said judge not lest you be judged. If it is too hard for you to understand he is telling you not to judge people.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 10:51 AM
link   
You know folks, this has ABSO-"DIRTY WORD"-LUTELY NOTHING to do with religion, and EVERYTHING to do with EQUAL rights under the law??????
Y'know like when two people of different colors getting married (even if it's still possible to find Americans who thinks that that is "wrong" too)?
For me, a (straight non-religious) non-US citizen, the act of denying someone the same Constitutional rights as you enjoy because he/she happens to be gay, seems so Un-American and like the ultimate betrayal of everything that the United States of America is supposed to stands for ( "..... with liberty and justice for all." etc).
This ruling in the SCOTUS hasn't taken away any rights from you (well, except then maybe the "right" to be a small minded bigot A-HOLE) and no, you can still think in your little bigot heart and soul that it is wrong, and no, you DO NOT have to run around to every Same Sex wedding....... The government ain't gonna send them Black helicopters and MIB's (Men In Black) to round you up in the middle of the night and whisk you away to the nearest Same Sex Wedding - even if I gladly would pop a few cold ones and pull up my chair in front of the telly to watch that PPV.

-----------------
-----------------
@ Boadicea
Please forgive my "rant", which, in any case, isn't in any shape or form directed at you.... I have a few like minded christian souls which I'm proud to call my friends.





edit on 6282015 by BobbyRock because: (no reason given)

edit on 6282015 by BobbyRock because: (no reason given)

edit on 6282015 by BobbyRock because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 10:59 AM
link   
a reply to: BobbyRock

There are some religious people (even in my own family) who sincerely believe that the country will suffer the wrath of God for allowing same-sex marriage. Floods, locusts, economy crashing, the works. They think they are fighting not only for their lives, but for their very souls. They think that if they don't put up a fight, that God will include them in the hell-bound group.

I kid you not.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 11:50 AM
link   
a reply to: Boadicea
I urge you dear brother, take great caution in this matter so as not to lead others into sin. We struggle against it enough already. It is painful to watch the westernized church dividing as many fall into apostasy over the issue of same-sex marriage. Some even cite scripture to support homosexuality, but the bible must be interpreted in context with itself through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, one will easily skew its meaning.

2 Peter 3:16 tells us that the untaught and unstable will twist the word to their own destruction. It directly refers to the way people interpret Paul's letters, the principle holds true for all scripture.

Yes, Jesus commands that we love our neighbors as ourselves. In fact it is one of the greatest commandments, but He doesn't refer to romance. He refers to agape love, i.e., God-like love. The other greatest, and foremost, commandment is to love God. That means we must observe God's law and His design.

Matthew 5:17 Jesus says that He didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill it. God's law, His plan for us, is still in effect. Jesus came to fulfill the law (and prophecy) because only He could live a sinless life, and only He could be a perfect sacrifice.

So if He didn't come to change the law, then perhaps there is already a precedent in the Old Testament. While there are many examples, Jesus Himself indirectly provides the answer in Matthew 19 when answering a question about divorce. He cites Genesis 1:27, explaining that God created man and woman, man will leave father and mother to join and become one flesh with woman, and the should not divorce. The only exception (not the rule) for divorce is in the case of sexual immorality of one's spouse.

We can find more writings in the New Testament regarding homosexuality in Paul's letter to the Romans. Remember, Jesus did not come to change one letter of the law, and Paul was both well versed in the law and personally chosen by Jesus. Romans 1:26-27 specifically mentions homosexuality as sinful.

The bible is very clear that homosexuality is not an acceptable practice. It is sin, and it should not be embraced by the church or any follower of Jesus because the warning in Mark 9:42 and Matthew 18:6 about causing believers to stumble.

Regarding the natural born eunuch, I always assumed it referred to men who are born sterile or deformed because, well, a eunuch is a castrated man, but a more knowledgeable source than I explains that it refers to those who choose life-long celibacy, i.e., never marry. carm.org...

This may indeed reference the anyone who is not attracted to women, but that doesn't condone homosexual practice because we are to refrain from sin. And homosexuality is clearly defined as sin.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 11:55 AM
link   
a reply to: Boadicea




it was the law and custom of the Jews at the time for ALL men to marry women


Except for those who refrain from marriage to study the scriptures. Think scribes and priests.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 11:56 AM
link   
Good on the true christians who follow in christs footsteps.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 11:59 AM
link   

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Boadicea



IF it is a sin, it is not a sin against me, and not my place to judge nor justify.

This is the one thing that many Christians seem to forget. Not even the Pope has the right to judge people for their sins that right falls to God alone.


Actually that's false. We all have the right to make judgments, just as long as we remember we will be judged the same way. The ultimate judgment falls on God alone.

Mind showing where it says in the bible that you have the right to judge people? Jesus said judge not lest you be judged. If it is too hard for you to understand he is telling you not to judge people.


sounddoctrineministries.wordpress.com...

www.johnstonfamilyministry.com...



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 12:37 PM
link   

originally posted by: JohnFisher
a reply to: Boadicea

I urge you dear brother, take great caution in this matter so as not to lead others into sin. We struggle against it enough already. It is painful to watch the westernized church dividing as many fall into apostasy over the issue of same-sex marriage. Some even cite scripture to support homosexuality, but the bible must be interpreted in context with itself through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


You give me too much power. I speak for no one but myself. I have no power over anyone, except myself. I have no power to make anyone sin nor to stop anyone from sinning. I have neither the wisdom nor the authority to support nor denounce homosexuality, much less to judge and condemn. Gays don't care what I think, nor should they. But they rightfully have a problem others to impose our will on them, even as we reap rewards from government and society they are denied.

What I know is that God gave us ALL free will... and that Jesus told us to love one another... and Jesus never told us to hate anyone, including Gays. I also know that we all have the right to freedom of worship and freedom of conscience and freedom of association. You are welcome to believe as you see fit -- for YOURSELF. You do not have the right to impose your version of Christianity on the rest of us.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 12:42 PM
link   
a reply to: kaylaluv

I believe you, since I've seen people like that myself (both IRL and on TV).
But I still believe we have to put the EQUAL rights for "the masses" before the "rights" of a few (IMHO) lost souls..



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 01:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: JohnFisher
a reply to: Boadicea

I urge you dear brother, take great caution in this matter so as not to lead others into sin. We struggle against it enough already. It is painful to watch the westernized church dividing as many fall into apostasy over the issue of same-sex marriage. Some even cite scripture to support homosexuality, but the bible must be interpreted in context with itself through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


You give me too much power. I speak for no one but myself. I have no power over anyone, except myself. I have no power to make anyone sin nor to stop anyone from sinning. I have neither the wisdom nor the authority to support nor denounce homosexuality, much less to judge and condemn. Gays don't care what I think, nor should they. But they rightfully have a problem others to impose our will on them, even as we reap rewards from government and society they are denied.

What I know is that God gave us ALL free will... and that Jesus told us to love one another... and Jesus never told us to hate anyone, including Gays. I also know that we all have the right to freedom of worship and freedom of conscience and freedom of association. You are welcome to believe as you see fit -- for YOURSELF. You do not have the right to impose your version of Christianity on the rest of us.


I speak the truth, and I speak only of whether homosexuality is a sin and whether or not followers of Jesus should embrace it. Let our conversation not fall into other theological points. No one said to hate homosexuals anymore than to hate a liar, idolater, or murderer, "for all have sinned". We must love the sinner but despise the sin, and homosexuality is clearly a sin. There is but one version of Christianity, for Jesus Christ is but one man to follow. There are those that turn him into many different men and follow many different examples.

One cannot be a follower of Jesus and deny His word. We all struggle with sin, every one of us. We all slip and stumble and sometimes do what we do not want, but the word is always consistent. It is always what it is. Homosexuality is sin. If you disagree, then you deny the word of God.

I don't necessarily mind that same-sex marriage is legal through the state, for God Himself gave us free will to choose life or death in sin. I do mind that the westernized church is divided and some are willing to "marry" same-sex couples under God. I mind that many brothers and sisters wrongly claim that homosexuality is not a sin. And that is the entire point of our discussion.


edit on 6282015 by JohnFisher because: changed two words. changed they're into there are, and changed homosexuality into homosexuals



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 01:49 PM
link   
a reply to: JohnFisher

Even if I agreed that homosexuality is a sin -- and just to be clear, I do not (though I once did) -- it doesn't matter. It is a sign against God and no one else. It is therefore only for God to judge, absolve or condemn according to His will; not us.

You and I have the right, the privilege, and the responsibility to worship freely but without forcing our will on others, according to the laws of nature, the laws of God, and the law of the land. Government has the responsibility to make no law respecting religion, and to protect everyone's rights to worship freely.

That means Christians (and others) cannot impose their faith on gays... nor can some Christians impose their faith on other Christians. Not only did our founding fathers know very well the oppression and persecutions of a too powerful Church against heresies, Jesus warned us about inevitable false prophets:


“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23


And how will we know who is doing the will of our Father?


Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:15-20


What are the fruits of the anti-gay marriage lobby? Have we eliminated the "abomination" of homosexuality? No. Have we created greater social harmony? No. Have we brought more lambs to the feet of Jesus? Nope. Have we created enmity and hate? Yes. Have we denied the God-given free will of gay people? Yes. Have we brought physical, mental and emotional abuse to gay people? Yup. That's not God's will. That's not a good tree bearing good fruit.

Jesus taught us to love. Whether or not that includes same-sex love is not my concern. My only concern is to treat all of God's children with love and respect... and that's everyone.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 02:15 PM
link   
a reply to: Boadicea

You keep turning this into an altogether different discussion.

It is not a question of opinion. Homosexuality is sin. Currently, you are the false teacher. To deny it as sinful is to reject the sovereign word and authority of God. It is clear. It simply is.

Yes, movements such as West Boro Baptist Church are also apostate. Yes, hating the sinner is apostasy. Yes, condemning others is apostasy. Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged, yes, but that is often distorted into a different meaning. He also taught us to judge righteous judgement.

You are wrong. Disagree all you will, but it is the truth.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 02:16 PM
link   
a reply to: JohnFisher


It is not a question of opinion. Homosexuality is sin. Currently, you are the false teacher. To deny it as sinful is to reject the sovereign word and authority of God. It is clear. It simply is.

Nope!
It simply is a question of opinion.
That is the truth.
Get over it.
If you aren't engaging in anything you see as "clearly, simply sin", then don't worry about it. Leave everyone else alone. Your self-styled "judgment" is unwelcome.



edit on 6/28/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 02:54 PM
link   
a reply to: Boadicea


I don't know... and neither do you. We don't even know exactly what hell is or isn't or if it ever really was. Jesus doesn't consult us on such matters.

No, I do not know and neither do you know because all we are doing is discussing theology. You seem to have no doubts about Jesus teaching only love and yet when He teaches a literal hell (Red Letter KJV) 16 times you seem to then have a problem in believing what He says. Kind of hypocritical don't you think? You seem to pick and choose what you want to believe. Take the entire NT and not only that what you choose. Perversion is still sin regardless of what your political correctness demands you to accept.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 03:14 PM
link   

originally posted by: JohnFisher
a reply to: Boadicea

You keep turning this into an altogether different discussion.


Nope. The OP -- and therefore the discussion -- is about Christians for gay marriage, myself specifically and others in general. I have not strayed from that. You keep telling me I'm wrong... okay.


It is not a question of opinion. Homosexuality is sin.


Faith, by definition, is based on opinion. Not fact. Nor can you cite one scripture in which Jesus condemned homosexuality. But I can cite many in which Jesus told us to love one another, even sinners, and in which He told us not to judge others. Fact, not opinion.


Currently, you are the false teacher.


I am not teaching anything. I am expressing my understanding of the scriptures. Everyone is free to reject or further study for themselves. Just as I am free to reject your understanding of the scriptures. Both under God's laws and Organic Law.


To deny it as sinful is to reject the sovereign word and authority of God. It is clear. It simply is.... [snip] ... You are wrong. Disagree all you will, but it is the truth.


So you keep saying... And I will keep saying: You have every right to believe as you will. You do not have the right to force your beliefs on me or anyone else. Period.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 03:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: JohnFisher

Your self-styled "judgment" is unwelcome.


I would add un-Christian and un-Constitutional as well.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 03:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: Seede

You seem to have no doubts about Jesus teaching only love...


I have no doubt that Jesus taught many things. I also have no doubt that love is the most important.


...and yet when He teaches a literal hell (Red Letter KJV) 16 times you seem to then have a problem in believing what He says. Kind of hypocritical don't you think?


Refusing to derail the thread to jump through your hoops is not hypocritical. If I wanted to discuss Jesus' teachings on hell -- both literal and figurative -- I would have made that the OP.


You seem to pick and choose what you want to believe.


Yup, I sure do. That's why the God Lord gave me a brain to think and reason. I eat shellfish too.... but I've never sold my daughter into slavery. What I know for an absolute certainty is that it is not YOUR job to pick and choose what I believe.


Take the entire NT and not only that what you choose. Perversion is still sin regardless of what your political correctness demands you to accept.


I'm more concerned with what YOUR political correctness is demanding me to accept.



posted on Jun, 28 2015 @ 03:37 PM
link   
a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah at the end of the day no one can tell you how to interpret the bible.
Everyone has their own opinion but yours is the right moral position to be in.
Kudos dude.







 
13
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join