Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia: St Andrew's Cross

Is it just a symbol of hate, or is there something more to it?
Where did the Confederates get the idea for the Saltire flag, would any historians like to chime in?

en.wikipedia.org...
A saltire is a heraldic symbol in the form of a diagonal cross, like the shape of the letter X in Roman type. Saint Andrew is said to have been martyred on such a cross. In the Russian Orthodox tradition, the phrase Saint Andrew's Cross is often equated with the Orthodox cross, because of the tradition that Saint Andrew used such a cross when preaching in the respective regions.[clarification needed] The saltire design is however distinct from that of the Orthodox Cross.

It appears in numerous flags, including those of Scotland and Jamaica, and other coats of arms and seals. A variant, also appearing on many past and present flags and symbols, is the Cross of Burgundy flag.

en.wikipedia.org...
Andrew is said to have been martyred by crucifixion at the city of Patras (Patræ) in Achaea, on the northern coast of the Peloponnese. Early texts, such as the Acts of Andrew known to Gregory of Tours,[11] describe Andrew as bound, not nailed, to a Latin cross of the kind on which Jesus is said to have been crucified; yet a tradition developed that Andrew had been crucified on a cross of the form called Crux decussata (X-shaped cross, or "saltire"), now commonly known as a "Saint Andrew's Cross" — supposedly at his own request, as he deemed himself unworthy to be crucified on the same type of cross as Jesus had been.

Here's a list of nations with crossed shaped flags including several saltires:
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: r0xor

The root of the symbolism does not have a relation with current usage but that is often the case. So what's the point?

The so called "confederate battle flag" is a de facto symbol of human cruelty, suffering and commonly used for the purpose of terrorism. State institutions should absolutely be barred from flying it.

I wouldn't stop citizens from flying it when they want. Many want to terrorize and offend others. Better to understand who those people are in the light of day, without their hoods to hide behind. Better to understand American culture.

The swastika was a symbol of goodness before a certain well known political movement adopted it.

a reply to: r0xor
I don't know the answer, but the connection with St.Andrew is likely to be very indirect.
It will have been borrowed from the symbols associated with some family, city, or region. A Scottish connection, perhaps?

P.S. I tried looking up a Wiki answer, and it seems that they were just looking for a design which could not be mistaken for the Stars and Stripes.

a reply to: r0xor

Looking at that picture, my first thought is: Why is that guy on the bottom positioned like that? Why is he looking up St. Andrew's dress? And why is he sticking out his tongue?

It seems to me like St. Andrew is looking at the crowd as if to say: "Why are you just standing there? You outnumber these clowns 3 to 1. Do something!"

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
a reply to: r0xor
Why is that guy on the bottom positioned like that? Why is he looking up St. Andrew's dress? And why is he sticking out his tongue?

It looks like he's putting his full body weight into tightening the rope on St. Andrew's ankle. Almost as if he is hanging back onto the rope to tighten it.

a reply to: r0xor

It was styled after the St. Patrick's flag. The stars were added because they represented the seceded states.

a reply to: r0xor

I am not sure what the symbolism represents for the Empire.

The UK flag has both the vertical and 45 deg diagonal crosses combined, while other principalities of the Empire have only the vertical or only the diagonal.

Other symbolism associated with the Empire are the lions, like used in Wales, or the single or double-headed eagles used in Germany, Austria, Russia, The United States, etc.

I think they may represent particular dynasties, or control structures/organization.

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: r0xor

The so called "confederate battle flag" is a de facto symbol of human cruelty, suffering and commonly used for the purpose of terrorism. State institutions should absolutely be barred from flying it.

The swastika was a symbol of goodness before a certain well known political movement adopted it.

And we recently had a discussion on here about a certain trading company on here that has a reminiscent standing of a certain flag today but with your argument next flag to be removed is the Union Jack then the Israeli, Russian do you see how stupid that is considering this is history and in America your allowed to own history.

The First Official Flag of the Confederacy. Although less well known than the "Confederate Battle Flags",the Stars and Bars was used as the official flag of the Confederacy from March 1861 to May of 1863. The pattern and colors of this flag did not distinguish it sharply fom the Stars and Stripes of the Union. Consequently, considerable confusion was caused on the battlefield.

The seven stars represent the original Confederate States; South Carolina (December 20, 1860), Mississippi(January 9, 1861), Florida (January 10,1861), Alabama (January 11, 1861), Georgia (January 19, 1861), Louisiana (January 26, 1861), and Texas (February 1, 1861).

QUESTION TO ALL WHO OPPOSE "THE BATTLE FLAG":

Would it completely end the debate if every "battle flag" was replaced with a "first flag"? 1861 to 1863 was the birth of the Confederacy and half of the Civil War. Surely we could learn to accept and respect that flag, could we not?

If the answer is yes, the "first flag" is acceptable, then one must ask why the "battle flag" isn't acceptable. The answer lies somewhere within the imagery of the KKK depicted in media for the past .. however many years. They have tarnished it, and had they never existed, this entire thing would be a non-issue. It's a current issue because a racist white male took pictures with the flag before killing black people. How much simpler can it be.

Historical slavery is one thing (which was an AMERICAN thing for 50+ years until the Civil War), killing innocent people because they are black while flying the "battle flag" (KKK, Dylann Roof) is another.

To add all of this extra crap to the debate is petty at best and disrespectful at worst.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

How exactly far can "DEFACTO" be taken?
It seems it is an overused concept to support ANY choice it's user would seek to express to his 'ACCURATE" statement to me.
Hitler was a philosopher so he is a defacto teacher like Plato.

a reply to: r0xor

To fly at government facilities? No. No secessionist flag should fly at such places.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: r0xor

To fly at government facilities? No. No secessionist flag should fly at such places.

I agree with that, fine.

But to stop selling them? It's your choice, ok, fine.

But to pull historical computer war games off the shelf? Come on..

Apple just pulled all the Civil War games in their app store that had Confederate flags in them (probably all).

www.foxnews.com...

National retailers Amazon.com, Walmart, Sears and Etsy this week all announced plans to remove merchandise depicting the Confederate battle flag following the recent shooting death of nine black members of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C. Shortly after the June 17 killings photos emerged of suspect Dylann Roof posing with the Confederate flag.

If I wasn't worried for my life over being attacked by a mob or shot dead, I'd set up a table outside of somewhere selling Confederate flags and merchandise. Think of the sales, especially w/all the advertisement at the moment. I'd have to be really, really careful which area of which county etc that I did it in. Lol.

But alas, for a buck, i just dont have the balls.
Some people are crazy enough to though.

a reply to: r0xor

I don't agree with Apple's decision, I have a feeling they won't stick with it, either that or pull all historically accurate war games.

Sell them at a flea market.

a reply to: Kali74

Where I live, that's just not an option.

In fact, I wouldn't even try it anywhere in the city.

I'd have to drive to some po-dunk backwater county along a major interstate route, so you could see the actual booth w/the flags from the highway as you drive past. (lol, I apologize for my sense of humor)

I'd probably get beat up or shot for that too, but by a passerby instead of city residents. I guess there's just no way to pull it off.

a reply to: r0xor

Surely you're not suggesting that people who see the Confederate flag as a symbol of violence and hatred would react with violence and hatred towards someone selling them. I find that hard to believe, good sir. That would make them hypocrites.

The Battle flag of the Confederate forces is hardly the same thing as the flag of the Confederacy.
Try using the same comparison now - the Marine Corps flag and the US National flag - are they interchangeable?
At any rate it hardly matters since the 1st Amendment allows us to use symbols as well as words to convey whatever message we want.
The White House shouldn't be in the business of telling businesses what flags or whatever they may not sell. Maybe some people view the flag as hateful or oppressive but that's their opinion. Everyone has their own interpretation.
We really don't want to get in to a tit-for-tat over what symbols may or may not be shown publicly. First it's the Confederate battle flag then it will be Malcolm X shirts, take down the markers for Nat Turner's rebellion - he killed 60 Whites mostly women and children. Then it will be crosses since atheists find those offensive.
It will never end should embark on the road of censoring ourselves.
Either there is freedom of speech or there isn't.
This looks to be a blatant case of there isn't

I'm sorry but who exactly is being terrorized by Confederate battle flags ?

a reply to: Asktheanimals

The White House shouldn't be in the business of telling businesses what flags or whatever they may not sell.

Is it?

Maybe some people view the flag as hateful or oppressive but that's their opinion.

It is, some people choose to pretend otherwise. That's okay, whether the flag is hateful or not... you are free to display it, free to have the opinion that it doesn't. It's not okay for anyone to try to infringe on that right. The only place it absolutely should not fly is government facilities. Everything else... you do you.

a reply to: Kali74

The funny thing is, I don't even particularly care for the flag, in a good or bad way, other than some minor feelings about history and people dying for what they believed in (whom some of us are related to) and stuff like that.

I guess that's why I find this whole thing so silly. I look at it as one of the flags of a failed nation in history, one that is a part of our collective American history.

Both sides were 100% convinced that God was on their side and that they were fighting for what god wanted.
Jackson was a full fledged "Jesus Freak" he wouldn`t even fight on a sunday if it could be avoided, because sunday was the lords day, a day of rest according to the bible.

To quote Abraham Lincoln:

“The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both *may* be, and one *must* be, wrong. God cannot be *for* and *against* the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is something different from the purpose of either party - and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaption to effect His purpose.

You don`t hear wisdom, or flowery language like that from politicians anymore.

I look at it this way, if the criminal actions of the black people in America today aren`t enough to make you a racist then 170 year old flag isn`t going to.If people are racist it`s not because of a 170 year old flag it`s because of what they see happening in this country everyday.
Will outlawing a 170 year old flag stop the blacks from their epidemic of murders and crime? if not than outlawing a 170 year old flag isn`t going to stop racism.Just as outlawing assholes isn`t going to stop # from stinking.