Rachel Dolezal vs Bruce Jenner? I don't get it.

Okay.

I am constantly thinking, and here is one of my productions. Please bare with me.
In no way am I here to rant to disrespect someone's beliefs or way of life. I can state my opinion, and you don't have to agree with it. Much love and blessings to any and everyone. I love no one any less.

So apparently it is okay for a person to undergo a physical operation, to bring him or herself to a better level of comfort, based solely off of what the individual "Identifies" with. This person is awarded and is consider a hero by the majority with nothing but positive headlines across all networks that would even consider this to be news.
Isn't that correct?.!.

I mean is it still legal to say that in my humble opinion, actions like these are the result of a very arrogant and selfish compartmentalized "mindset" and nation.
I am not here to disrespect anyone as I stated above, I know this is a touchy subject, but that is another thing that gets under my skin. People say being gay is tough, you face hate crimes and so on and so forth, but if I disagree with LGBTQ as a whole, which I do, multiply your hate times 10. A person is made out to be some old guy that can't handle change,they will find a way to deduce your existence or they will even disrespect your religious beliefs if that is what you stand on. We can disagree with tact and we can do it like adults. I can't live your life and you can't live mines. People face more ridicule for disagreeing, addressing and stating there opinion, when asked. I kissed my wife in Albertsons once and a gay couple said "ewww". Really? I never even thought ewww when I saw them even though, they represent an ideal that is totally contrary to everything I believe and understand to be right and exact. I brought up that experience to say that respect has to be mutual. You want me to understand you but you don't have to understand me?>?If I threw a Natural Parade to highlight and revere how we all got here, with elements that excluded others and flamboyantly expressed my opinion. It wouldn't go to well. Even if it was a peaceful gathering.
I am truly getting off topic, but it is all relevant because I see many people reacting in the same capacity due to prescribed ideals. We can all hold hands under the same banner and be different. We are all the same yet different. Family right?

So, here we have another individual that identifies with being "black or African-american" (I will touch on that in a sec) and she is ridiculed, insulted, mocked, scorned and her experience and testimony is belittled with peoples insolent opinions.
Now, when we say "BL, A-A" are we talking about our culture, the things we produce, our collective experience, and/or our customs. This I would have no problem with The Americas from top to bottom, is simply a melting pot, but we know when she is attacked the language that is used reflects a different definition,( Or are we using a rather antiquated, diluted definition unknowingly), because after all it is even legal to identify yourself according to your experience. Are we referring to her complexion?? Because people within the "African" diaspora/experience (humans and humans that identify with Africa) certainly have her traits and hell I thought Homo-Sapiens Sapiens were all the same meaning "we are all African" as Robert Bauval states "but we have changed, due to our environment". She seems to be saying something and every single being approaching her is saying something completely different.
So is she that wrong? Does she deserve the sponsored shaming?

I really don't get it here, what message is being sent??. I thought this was about being able to state your own "identity" based off of what you "identify" with, right? I look at these like social test and the sole point of my post is to say that we have performed very poorly.
What do you guys think? Is it fair?

the problem with the girl that says she is african american, is that she has shown to be a bit off centre in the past, lying about who her father was for example, and a few other strange things, i will find the video and link it to this reply, i think it was shown on The Young Turks.
anyway, i think people have a hard time taking her seriously BECAUSE she has been a bit strange in the past.

But if we remove all that, then yeah i kinda see your point, but i will admit to having a fetish for the slippery slope argument, so that could be my bias.
Thing is, when it comes to what is in your head, i have no way of knowing how honest you are.
some people think/know they are trapped in the wrong gender and want the outside to match the inside. and we say to be fine with it.
Can someone think/know they are trapped in the wrong race? i guess it's possible, in both cases it's mainly a psychological thing anyway.

I feel that if that woman hadn't shown to be a bit strange, people might have taken her more seriously

a reply to: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

I guess being born black or white , or whatever colour you are born is something that cannot be changed . What you identify as will never change the colour of your skin . Changing sex however , well the external aspects of it anyways is quite possible with surgery , but Caitlin will never have ovaries or a womb etc . And Rachel will never have African American skin . Perhaps if they can change her DNA all will be good .

originally posted by: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS
So apparently it is okay for a person to undergo a physical operation, to bring him or herself to a better level of comfort, based solely off of what the individual "Identifies" with.

This might help give a broad understanding of why people take the issue seriously: causes of transexualism wiki page

The basis is not a sole one but it is certainly a difficult to understand one.

I mean is it still legal to say that in my humble opinion, actions like these are the result of a very arrogant and selfish compartmentalized "mindset" and nation.

I think part of people's issue is that it takes a long time and a significant amount of research to understand the issue, and only a few minutes to come to a conclusion like the one above. Sincerely, I can see how you would reach this conclusion, but life in general isn't convenient or guaranteed to make sense. There is no promise from nature to avoid upsetting biologists.

If you would like some book suggestions etc feel free to kick me, but if it's something you want to truly understand you have to move beyond comparisons with Bruce Jenner.

I am not here to disrespect anyone as I stated above, I know this is a touchy subject

You might not be specifically intending that but it will happen.

People say being gay is tough, you face hate crimes and so on and so forth, but if I disagree with LGBTQ as a whole, which I do, multiply your hate times 10.

The moment you enter the transsexual demographic the chances of you being murdered rise significantly. I realize Christians aren't always safe. I realize some people are hostile towards Christians. I'd challenge you to present as the opposite gender for a few days and see which you prefer. I'd also just be curious about the outcome. Maybe it would confirm your belief.

even disrespect your religious beliefs if that is what you stand on.

Just highlighting this part. I guess part of the reason people react badly to this is it places religion on a pedestal.

If I threw a Natural Parade to highlight and revere how we all got here, with elements that excluded others and flamboyantly expressed my opinion. It wouldn't go to well. Even if it was a peaceful gathering.

There is a national parade every Sunday where I'm from called Church. It's peaceful, but they have these odd rituals and don't let me give presentations on New Atheism during their annual float.

Joking aside though and being sincere, can you read up on the topic? If the literature and information is made available to you would you at least consider looking at it? Because these discussions are utterly pointless without mutual understand, as you have alluded to, and that means sincerely reading about the subject matter.

Please consider it.

a reply to: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Here's the thing. If they were to do the DNA test on Rachel Dolezal, it would come back majority Caucasian. She will have a small percentage of African DNA, as do all of us, because that is where all human beings originated from. It could be higher if some of her not so distant ancestors had relations with them in more recent history. She is still white no matter what she believes. She can identify with a culture but she is not of that culture.

Now with Caitlyn Jenner, we are also talking biology, but a different kind. Recent research by Neuroscientists have found that people who are transgender have a brain that is structured and shaped exactly as the gender they feel they are. So with Caitlyn, her brain from birth has always been shaped female. In a blind test, if someone took a picture of Caitlyn's brain and asked someone to identify it as a male or female brain, they would classify it female.

The MRI scans extend even to gays and lesbians. They did a blind test where they imaged the brains of straight and gay males, straight women and lesbians, shuffled them, and then gave them to a scientist outside the study and asked them to sort the brains by gender. He sorted gay males and straight females into one pile and straight males and lesbians into another pile.

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Hiya MonkeyFishFrog,

Do you have links / references regarding these examples? Just some of it is at odds with my current reading.

Thanks.

a reply to: Pinke

Unfortunately, I don't readily have access to the journals anymore. It was from a Psych class I took in my first year or two of college. The study was just one of those things that stuck in my head afterwards. My apologies for not being able to provide it.

In my opinion anyone can identify as what ever they want, if they want to be a woman, black, or a monkey i dont care. I do take issue with people identifying and then placing themselves in certain situations. With Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner i really have no issues. But let say Caitlyn decided to fight women in mma just like Fallon Fox is doing, that's when i would have a problem. Fallon Fox was a man and had surgery to become a women. As a man he had little success in the cage against equally matched opponents, now he is a she and is fighting women and winning in devastating fashion and i mean devastating. One of her female opponents received a broken eye socket and concussion. She wants to have a sex change and identify as a woman that's fine, but that doesn't change the fact that most of her life she was a man and has the bone density and frame to prove it. Thats the only kind of issues i have with this subject other than that people can be who ever they want. In reality Fallon should be fighting men not women just doesn't seem fair. Now Rachel Dolezal can be white black i dont care, you do you, my issue with her tho is that she lies to much and sure she is fighting for racial equality but you dont have to lie about who you are. Not saying that her identifying as black is a lie but i am saying she lied about who her parents are, for what? She could have easily answered the reporters question with no thats not my dad, this is my dad and mom and they are white but i identify as black. To be honest i think a lot of people would of had way more respect for her (i know i would) then they do now. I mean the reporter asked her "are you African American" and she stated that she didn't understand the question and walked away. What part didnt she understand? That was her trying to cover up and avoid lying but still lying. She also identifies with what ever race is convenient at the time. She sued Howard University for racial discrimination because she was wait for it....WHITE. really your gonna identify as back and then sue a school because your not getting your way and claim its because your white. Well which one is it? I have no issue with her identifying with w.e my issue is her lying and not sticking to what she identifies with when its not working out. I think Daily Show correspondent Jessica Williams put it best "we dont need oppression cosplay, we need allies not replacements" Other than that people should be able to be who they want to be. I think thats the real issue with Caitlyn and Rachel one is identifying in a respectable manner, the other is lying about her identification and gets to pick and choose which one she is depending on the situation. I think thats why Caitlyn gets respect and Rachel gets ridiculed.

I think they're both mile markers along the highway to societal destruction. As for your remarks about how accepted and lionized Bruce Jenner has been, that's mostly just the media, and some celebrities. I doubt that the average person finds him courageous, inspirational, or sane.

Rachel Dolezal's more than a few Lego bricks short of a castle as well, and that is ignoring her obvious proclivity for lying.

Pinke here is an article that might help about differences in the brain in transsexuals
www.nytimes.com...

and MonkeyFishFrog im not that educated on DNA and biology but i have heard the race is a social construct because genetically we are all the same. Now i may be wrong but this is what i have heard and these so called experts seem to be saying the same thing.
www.pbs.org...
www.sciencedaily.com...

a reply to: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Honestly i don't see why either had to be as much of a big deal as they were made out to be.

In Bruce Jenner's case i feel that it was blown out of proportion for the simple fact that many people go through this type of operation and the only reason she got the attention she did was because she's famous.

Now with the Rachel Dolezal thing I just found that both funny and kind of sad. Funny because of the simple fact that something like that even became as big of a deal as it did, and sad because it seemed like a family issue that should've been resolved within the family and not put on display for the world to see.

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog
Thank you for trying MonkeyFishFrog!

I do have access to a number of journal subs so let me know if you remember anything.

originally posted by: Sinfulknowledge
Pinke here is an article that might help about differences in the brain in transsexuals

Thanks for this too.

I read quite a bit on the subject, and its the specifics of it that I'm more curious about. It is perhaps just a wording thing ... There are references to brain differences in the studies I've read, but not specifically indistinguishable from what might be considered 'normative' gender make up on a large scale. Hopefully if Monkey remembers some things they can let us know.

a reply to: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Another 13-page "rant" on this exact topic here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just FYI.

a reply to: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

ANOTHER thread that compares someone who defrauded an NPO to a transgender person? You do realize that Dolezal should be in jail right?

By the way, identifying yourself as a race other than the one you are born with gives credence to the idea that there ARE distinct races instead of promoting the idea that we are all just humans.

I love these rant threads, they allow me to vent and just let out some ignorance of my own. I forgot the original intent of this thread as I typed this. Was it respectful disapproval of my lifestyle?? If that is the case then tell me again how my existence is wrong.

It goes to motive and intent. Rachael lied to further herself. If Bruce made the change to join a women's track team, people might not be so understanding of it.

Personally, neither raise a blip on my personal radar screen beyond being fascinated by how many seem to care.

This again? SERIOUSLY?!

Wasn't there already a thread on this subject and the discussion of why they are two different things entirely? I could have swore I posted in one.

Maybe the OP needs to scroll down or search before posting? :LOL:

just sayin'


BTW: I feel now would be a VERY good time for a "I am an LGBTQ members of ATS. Ask Me Anything" educational thread because I keep seeing the same topics coming up and our responses to a lot of the misunderstanding of what it means to be L, G, B, T or Q are spread across many multiple threads as new ones on basically the same subject(s) are posted.

Thank you to the 90% of the people that were kind enough to read my post and not respond in a negative manner.
To the other people.
So what, it could be a thousand threads on it, this is something that was on my mind and I believe the crux of my post was very unique. I won't allow you to lump me in with the masses like that......I don't fit anyway rofl.


We can never dictate or determine how someone's experience may have effected them. I am not equating the two. Someone can be born feeling like this but that isn't the case here. She clearly comes from a "Caucasian" background but we don't know that girls life. I come from an indigenous background but being is formed by outside influences as well as the internal. In the 4th grade......To make a long story short, I was ridiculed, made fun of because of my hair and complexion. I was called everything in the book like an old integration documentary and this was the mid 90's in a historically African-American established community, but grew to be more diverse as the years went by.
Do I identify with that based solely off of that experience. Of course not, but my experiences allowed me see beyond fictitious labels. The irony of the story, the only friend I had was "Caucasian". The universe is the greatest teacher.

Hutch622 - I completely agree. I make the argument all the time. If I liked to have intercourse with table legs (many men were aroused by them in early American traditions which is how we developed table skirts and other draperies to cover the legs lol) then I believe that is my business no one would ever know. Same goes for people that try to equate the black experience to the lbgtq experience. It is completely and utterly disrespectful in my opinion. People can marry whoever the he77 they wan't I only have a problem with people deducing the Man-Woman-union-train that every single person arrived here by. What is African-American skin? She fits right in, even with people that have been effected by colonialism. What I'm saying, is her traits aren't abnormal for her to be African-American. When people especially news casters say things like this it bothers me because, the black/African-American experience is still poorly understood by choice.


Pinke : Hey, how are you? Trust me, I have read enough in my time to the point my head wants to explode. People will throw up everything in the mix as long as it supports them and it works out in their favor. If we are going to say the cause we must admit the terminology alone alludes to the idea of something deviating from the original code. We never like to talk about the real influences on gender which is Society, Environment, and the most important of all food. No one ever wants to talk about all of the superficial ideals, and archaic expectations that are placed on both genders. Both which are not rooted in nature but in "Selfish-Philosophy". That is the first strike in my humble opinion. This is why I hold the tribal society at such a high standard because I understand they had a way of life that secured progression even without the interaction of problems. Nature based Rites of passages have a very, very deep purpose that will continue to go misunderstood as well as many other "primitive"(as always put)technology. Life makes perfect sense and it is guaranteed to make perfect sense in my stance. See I can tell you have a defensive stance. In NO way shape or form would I dress as the opposite sex because I am in harmony with my biology. In my mind, excluding psycho-based trauma, I couldn't see any reason to do that. That is equal to me saying I want to cut off my left pinky because I just feel like it! Only in the western world do we find the "I" driven mindset. We don't care who we effect, and we don't care about self checks. This emotional driven declarations give birth to stupidity like leftist-lobbyist-totalitarian-socialist republican LOL. Do you realize what we are doing? We are focusing on the I so much we don't realize how much we are ruining the many. The corporation is the perfect example.

Just highlighting this part. I guess part of the reason people react badly to this is it places religion on a pedestal.

What bothers me is this false superior stance. Just because people can't understand or don't wish to understand spiritual systems doesn't mean you can disrespect it or deduce its purpose. I have read enough to separate and understand why codified spiritual systems would be infiltrated and the need to push a religious agenda. The two are so intertwined that people who choose not to inform themselves, mistake the two as one. Church and its perverse understanding of biblical text do NOT represent how "we all" got here. The rituals are only odd without understanding and 10/10 of the times they are new additions to spiritual systems. Maybe I should have used a the terms "A mutual respect for each persons understanding".


MonkeyFishFrog : I believe our understanding of DNA is very poor. It is limited to our theories and the theory was set in motion before we had access to the evidence. That alone is a poor approach. If the human experience was born in the place we call Africa then essentially everyone would be African. The genetic mutations caused by environment would not be enough to branch and divide the human experience into races. Racism is by definition when you remove the negative connotations, would be the belief in races, which is a theory just as evolution. People use these theories to assert and propagate insolent, non-scientific beliefs. Like, everyone that talks about evolution is speaking a hidden language simultaneously that reeks of old antiquated racist beliefs. Now that we know The ape is younger than humans, and we both stem from a common ancestor people still say blacks came from monkeys because of the hidden implications that have been engraved into our heads. Look at darwins relatives!!!!! DNA doesn't determine what culture you identify with, experience and your way of life does. Even the UN recognizes this. I hate this race thing because without these dumb elementary labels like white. People never referred to any portion of mankind as 'white' before the 1800's and people were forced to adopt negro which is latin for black. One by choice one not by choice. How could you and would you identify yourself without these fictitious labels that are not based on science.? Your MRI scans do not explain how these minds developed to be this way.

SinfulKnowledge

She also identifies with what ever race is convenient at the time.

LOL, You can't see why, this should solidify her experience and testimony. The majority of us (AA-BL) our suffering in a psychological way, where we had to do certain things to make the "white" society forget how "black" we were. Perming, talking a certain way, and dressing a certain way that we wouldn't necessarily do if we had a choice. Now you have people bleaching their skin, and echoing an era where people had to do that to pay rent and feed the kids. This should reflect how wrong everything is from the root.

I think thats the real issue with Caitlyn and Rachel one is identifying in a respectable manner, the other is lying about her identification and gets to pick and choose which one she is depending on the situation.

I think the same could be said for both. He is expected to be a father. His selfishness could unravel the fragile minds of his kids but hey on the "I" quest who cares because its about how "I" feel. Not right.
I would've walked away too. Reporters are so sneaky and disrespectful, they pry into your personal life, wait for you to get vulnerable and then dropped misinformed info in a very disrespectful tone. He asked like 5 questions like a set up, that is disrespectful and tacky. I am certain if it were approached different we would have different results and that is part of my original point. People had a problem with her, and she was attacked by the media in a very racist manner. " I mean clearly your not black", I mean damn well, technically no one is. The people that we call dark skin are dark because they have a greater ability to interface with light which should be normal for a terrestrial species, yet we make fun of this trait. That is a different subject. Wouldn't that by definition make us/them "light"skinned???! I think us,we, the Black/African-America is poorly understood and at every attempt to identify ourselves based off of our cultural experiences we are mocked and made fun of and replicated. It is shown in the language used to talk to Rachel and describe some of the events taking place.

Benevolent Heretic : Thank you but no thank you, this is something I wanted to express. I generally do not engage in the exchanging of opinions, it tends to be presented in a way that is much more disrespectful than tone that was expressed in this post.


Krazysh0t : This is why I dove into the idea of what people define as a race. She is referring to experience and other people are referring to something else. I hope you got that from my original post. Our genetic differences when compared to nature do NOT qualify us to be separate races. Lose the hidden racist nonsense. This comes from the same school of thought, " blacks are physiologically incapable of flying aircrafts" this is a quote from the brightest scientist at the time, based solely off of Darwinism and insolent attempts to make Caucasians appear superior using fictitious data, which was shattered by peoples performance. Just like any other given scenario. We are all the same and we were to focus on our difference the story would get very funny and we would have to introduce the concept of devolving which no one loves to talk about.

Trapped Princess : you kind of validate some of my point. You automatically assume my post takes a stance that is opposite of yours so deduce its purpose to "ignorant". Its not about anyone being right or wrong, its about how we handle and perceive right and wrong.

Yeah right : I am forced to care, I don't watch tv but I can imagine how bad it is. Its all over the net. We could careless and would prefer not to use people lifestyles and choices as entertainment personally.


Jadestar : Greetings. As I posted above, I couldn't care less about the other post. I feel my take on this is a little different, not that I know what is going on in the other post, at the same time I don't need to know. This is just something that is on my mind. So I think your in the wrong place because you did not address anything in my post and just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean that I am not informed or that you are somehow more of an expert on the situation. "I think this would be a great time to restore the respect to the people who make the same choices that are responsible for getting us here to enjoy these freedoms". I am tired of this your straight so your very own existence is threating type of approach, it works both ways, but you rarely see straight people talking about the ridicule they face for respectfully disagreeing. I find myself defending the views that are responsible for us all being here, that shouldn't be a reality.

originally posted by: AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS
SinfulKnowledge

She also identifies with what ever race is convenient at the time.

LOL, You can't see why, this should solidify her experience and testimony. The majority of us (AA-BL) our suffering in a psychological way, where we had to do certain things to make the "white" society forget how "black" we were. Perming, talking a certain way, and dressing a certain way that we wouldn't necessarily do if we had a choice. Now you have people bleaching their skin, and echoing an era where people had to do that to pay rent and feed the kids. This should reflect how wrong everything is from the root.

I think thats the real issue with Caitlyn and Rachel one is identifying in a respectable manner, the other is lying about her identification and gets to pick and choose which one she is depending on the situation.

I think the same could be said for both. He is expected to be a father. His selfishness could unravel the fragile minds of his kids but hey on the "I" quest who cares because its about how "I" feel. Not right.

Would you rather Caitlyn have killed her self from depression over her situation? Don't you think THAT could have had more of an effect on her children than her being happy as Caitlyn?

Most of what you have written on this issue show great ignorance and arrogance. You can't even use the proper pronouns.

Here are two simple facts: 1-in-12 transgender women are murdered in the US every year for nothing other than being transgender. And for transgender women of color that number rises to 1-in-8.

Last time I checked 1-in-8 African-American/Black Christians were not being killed because they were African-American/Black Christians.

And for the record I am a half AA/BL, straight woman who was born differently (transsexual) and who fully transitioned before I turned 18. Think I might know what I'm talking about here?

Until you've walked a mile in my shoes you really can't minimize experience by calling it a choice.

I didn't chose anything other than to live as I was meant to be.