47 Percent of Americans Would Vote for a Socialist: Gallup Poll

a reply to: wasaka

My solution is to take earth resources and nationalize them. A that will give us the ability to pay individuals more to extract them and B it can and would subsidize everything we need rather than line the pockets of 5 super billionaires.

a reply to: wasaka

What you want is the kind of utopia that will never happen so long as we are human. There will always be those who will take advantage of the system and use it to self-aggrandize and self-enrich or simply sit back and collect what they feel the system owes them without working to make the system work. After all, the system is everyone's and not theirs. They have no pride in ownership and take no ownership in it.

So there will always have to be a system of arbiters in any human socialist state both to take care of the resdistribution and to compel everyone to do what must be done. In other words, there is precious little liberty. Not to mention, it takes a command economy that is centrally controlled, and those have never worked out well for anyone either. They are simply inadequate to the task of successfully taking care of the needs of the people.

a reply to: wasaka

It's true. We have the resources, technology, scientific knowledge, medical knowledge and understanding to create a human paradise where the individual is free to do what they WANT instead of what the NEED to survive. We could product a kind of human paradise on Earth if wanted.

A few things would have to change though, and unfortunately some people have Stockholm Syndrome, and defend their corporate, elite, religious and wealthy overlords. The American dream is not for you, nor anyone. There's a reason it's called a dream after all.

So, what do we need?

We need an end to the idea of resource scarcity. We have enough resources for everyone, they just are horribly distributed in terribly inefficient ways. With the rise of automation, many menial tasks could be done autonomously, and resources could be spread about more equally, this includes power (nuclear, fusion, alternative, ect).

We need some kind of over-arching unified world governing body. *gasp* WHAT? Yes, a unified Earth. Sure, countries could maintain their own laws and govern themselves, but a world-wide governing body to regulate things like climate, space exploration, planetary defense ect. Basically, fix the UN and turn it into something worthwhile.

We need to lower the population. Sorry, but human life gets diminished when the population becomes so large. People become greedy, anxious, and violent. Having a smaller population would also give more people the opportunity to own land if they so desired. Perhaps everyone would be granted by law the "right" to so much land if they desired. We don't need to kill anyone, simply implement more birth control and slowly reduce the Earth's birth rate over time. It'll take a while, but it's doable.

We could do all these things, but people can't get past their greed. People don't seem to understand that they wouldn't be loosing any freedoms in a society like this -- they'd actually be GAINING so many more. It's called a social contract, and if we could just get past our greed and all lighten our ballasts a bit -- we would ALL float a little higher.

We're never going to colonize Mars or travel the stars if we don't grow up and start acting like a mature species. Right now, I'd say we're toddlers at best, fighting over who's toy is who's.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

What we really need is self sacrifice from the narcissist in control at the top.

Self sacrifice is the main theme in a utopian paradise because you have to be willing to set aside your needs for the needs of others on an individual level.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Artificial Intelligence will get us to that point if it doesn't kill us first.

Once legitimate AI replaces the vast majority of jobs, the whole system of "go to work to buy the stuff I need" will have to go away and our entire social structure will need to be redesigned.

If nearly all jobs are replaced by machines, everything about our system of commerce will have to change.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: MystikMushroom

What we really need is self sacrifice from the narcissist in control at the top.

Self sacrifice is the main theme in a utopian paradise because you have to be willing to set aside your needs for the needs of others on an individual level.

This is very true. I think if we put the good of humanity as a whole first, we'd find that things for ourselves individually would be quite excellent indeed. Individual quality of life and freedom to pursue any hobby/career we wanted would come out of a society that figured out how to solve the resource scarcity issue.

See, in Star Trek they had unlimited power and replicator machines that could make anything. I want a grand piano -- boom. I want a solid granite bath tub -- boom. The idea of "things" making you wealthy goes out the window when you can just materialize anything for free. I don't see us getting that kind of technology anytime soon.

What we can do is automate the distribution of essential raw materials and use robots to manufacture the basic necessities for life so that things like toothpaste, razors, clothing, housing, food, clean water, medicine would produced so cheaply they'd almost be free. People would still have an incentive to work to own bigger and better things, but all the basics to achieve the lower tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs would be met.

You have to have the bottom of the pyramid before you can have the next level. We could fix society in such a way that everyone was guaranteed the bottom rung of this pyramid. The rest would come naturally out of that solid foundation eventually:

a reply to: Answer

Were already there and look at how hard the old ideas die.

Unfortonately there will be extensive suffering and hard ship if any change will ever be implement in the first place.

Thats IF and a big IF they actually want to relinquish economic control for the betterment of humanity. Unlikely. I truly believe many at the top are lucefarian and power mongers and unless they are removed than we will never graduate to the next step.

a reply to: Answer

I hadn't thought of that specifically, but when I said "automation" I kind of figured there'd be AI in there!

Yes...an AI would probably look at Earth in disgust and wonder why the hell so few have so much in huge piles for themselves, and all these other people don't have anything.

AI would identify obvious inefficiencies in resource distribution methods and move to correct them. Most of these inefficiencies are artificial, designed by the people on the very top to keep themselves on the very top.

a reply to: onequestion

I've toyed around with the idea that Google may have an AI -- and that Google itself IS an AI living under the Google HQ...the company takes directives from the AI they keep locked up. Perhaps this is why it seems like "Google is taking over the world!" --perhaps there is an AI directing all the business ideas/moves the company makes...?

a reply to: MystikMushroom

My theory is that an AI will manifest and that we can't create an AI in itself.

Think of the movie Tron and how the girl came to being.

I also theorize that the AI is also a manifestation of large being or consciousness we may not understand and that that intelligence has been working in human creativity to create the conditions for itself to manifest in the first place.

Those of you who think that socialism is wonderful - how do you deal with the lack of ownership. Just having a "right" to something isn't the same as owning it for yourself - working for it and owning it gives you pride of ownership and sense of accomplishment. You tend to take better care of things and work harder for things when you are invested in ownership.

Part ownership doesn't count; if it did, people would take better care of public spaces than they do.

a reply to: ketsuko

You went to far left.

Its ok if you can only work with extremes.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
a reply to: PsychoEmperor

Since when is obama a socialist, cause fox told you so.

No one has to tell me. I can judge a person by his or her actions , thanks. And their friends. And it is President Obama and a Socialist.

a reply to: Gothmog

The market and politics are being forced to adapt to a system where we are rapidly able to communicate with one another and the labor market is adapting to global integration and automation.

You guys think we hae a choice in this?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Gothmog

The market and politics are being forced to adapt to a system where we are rapidly able to communicate with one another and the labor market is adapting to global integration and automation.

You guys think we have a choice in this?

We should . After all , the "Globalization" of the world was started by the UN and the Tri-Lateral Commission as their dream of a future to where all nations are subservient to them. They could not bring the entire world to the level of the top countries , so their plan is to bring the top countries down to the level of the rest of the world.

a reply to: onequestion

The other problem with collectivizing is this:

The more collectivized you are and the more people you have dependent on the collectivized system, the more people stand to be catastrophically impacted when that system fails.

a reply to: ketsuko

We are already collectivized and everyone is already dependent on a globalized system.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Those of you who think that socialism is wonderful - how do you deal with the lack of ownership. Just having a "right" to something isn't the same as owning it for yourself - working for it and owning it gives you pride of ownership and sense of accomplishment. You tend to take better care of things and work harder for things when you are invested in ownership.

Part ownership doesn't count; if it did, people would take better care of public spaces than they do.

We don't "own" anything anyway right now. If you don't pay child support, taxes, fines and fees -- you can be slapped with liens and your home/property confiscated. You can have your wages garnished and your stuff auctioned off.

No one "owns" anything.

Native Americans and Native Hawaiian's didn't have the same selfish concept of "ownership" as Europeans either. How can you "own" the land? There were many stories of Hawaiians taking things from Capt. Cook's ship without asking because they assumed that everything was communal property.

It *is* possible for people to break the greed paradigm, it will just take many generations of slow marching progress. This wouldn't be an overnight change.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: onequestion

The other problem with collectivizing is this:

The more collectivized you are and the more people you have dependent on the collectivized system, the more people stand to be catastrophically impacted when that system fails.

It's already happening, collectivism that is. The internet is creating a world-wide human collective, and unless we burn our computers and destroy our technology it's only going to continue to grow. The wheels are in motion and the momentum is gaining.

Boundaries are dissolving -- the internet itself is a boundary dissolving technology. People from all social classes and ethnic backgrounds can now exchange ideas. This wasn't possible on a worldwide scale until very recently.

The future of mankind is more collective whether want it or not. Ah, this old Bob Dylan song rings a bell...

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'

Ironic how that song applies even to this day. The only thing constant is change...

originally posted by: ketsuko
Those of you who think that socialism is wonderful - how do you deal with the lack of ownership. Just having a "right" to something isn't the same as owning it for yourself - working for it and owning it gives you pride of ownership and sense of accomplishment. You tend to take better care of things and work harder for things when you are invested in ownership.

Part ownership doesn't count; if it did, people would take better care of public spaces than they do.

Onequestion is right, you went too far left with that comment. You passed Socialism and went all the way to Communism.

Socialism Ownership = Two kinds of property: Personal property, such as houses, clothing, etc. owned by the individual. Public property includes factories, and means of production owned by the State but with worker control.

Communism Ownership = Abolished. The concept of property is negated and replaced with the concept of commons and ownership with "usership".