I can no longer believe or trust anyone with a faith in any relgion.

originally posted by: WizardVanWizard
a reply to: nonspecific

Many years ago I was convinced that the Mayan calender and 2012 was the truth and I recall my friends would hang there heads in shame whenever I brought it up.

Did this affect how well you practised your trade/skill/hobbies?

Yes it did actually. It caused me to ignore the reality of life and base everything on the fact that the world would end in the near future and that nothing I could do on a base level would change that.

I allowed a story to affect my judgement and it turned out to be nothing more.

Maybe this has something to do with my issues regarding those of a religious disposition.

Good question and thank you, it helped.

originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said earlier I really cannot for the life of me understand how they do it and have been trying to understand for some time now.

I think I have heard the same about which is the best superhero, or sports team.

I think the amazing thing is that even those that appear to see things the same way as us are just as diverse as the typical dividing lines. It's really something amazing, in my opinion.

Case in point: tell a group of people to draw a house. One single, simple word will bring out a lot of diversity even among a seemingly like minded group. Extrapolate that out into the social structure as a whole.. And it is literally beyond the ability of one mind to comprehend, much less agree or disagree.

In that, maybe we have been doing it wrong all along, and these instant dismissals are less a natural behavior and more a manifestation of divide and conquer programming.

originally posted by: Serdgiam

originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said earlier I really cannot for the life of me understand how they do it and have been trying to understand for some time now.

I think I have heard the same about which is the best superhero, or sports team.

I think the amazing thing is that even those that appear to see things the same way as us are just as diverse as the typical dividing lines. It's really something amazing, in my opinion.

Case in point: tell a group of people to draw a house. One single, simple word will bring out a lot of diversity even among a seemingly like minded group. Extrapolate that out into the social structure as a whole.. And it is literally beyond the ability of one mind to comprehend, much less agree or disagree.

In that, maybe we have been doing it wrong all along, and these instant dismissals are less a natural behavior and more a manifestation of divide and conquer programming.

A fair point. However if we asked a group of people to draw a house and someone drew a house typical of 2000 years ago and when asked why they said because a mythical entity they were taught about said that was the correct way to build a house would that not seem a little odd?

Would you not be more inclined to go with the guy that drew a house based on modern understanding of how society works today with all the mod cons?

a reply to: nonspecific

That was not the answer I expected haha. But, yeah, perhaps this is a reason why you have these issues with religious folk.

From my experience growing up in a small town, religious folk were no better or worse at their professions than anyone else. Actually, a few of the best auto-mechanics were either devout or at least casual Christians haha.

I think the brain (as CranialSponge said) is usually very good at separating performing tasks from pondering life's eternal mysteries. Maybe the fact that your old obsession with the Mayan calender caused you distraction is that it had a definitive date? Most religions are very vague in their Judgement Day forecasts haha

Isn't not trusting mechanics and doctors once they tell you they were religious kind of making a leap of 'faith'?

I mean you have no proof that they should be any less trustworthy; that is a hunch on your part. Really, the evidence (working at a reputable garage, being even considered for a major surgeon) would be stacked against you...just like reality's evidence is stacked against most religions.

a reply to: nonspecific

There are a few ancient technologies that are infrequently utilized in modern times. So, I would still find value in it. In fact, some of these were used as inspiration for my own inventions.

In the example above, either way, any dwelling drawn would fit the requirements.

Culture and technology can change how we see the world, likely in deeper ways than we are aware. Even so, those living 2000 years ago still lived in roughly the same universe as us with the same set of 'data' available (the universe itself).

In a way, it's like a different language but with much deeper subtleties. Instead of writing it off as gibberish, there might actually be more going on than perceived. Personally, I feel it's important to understand the concepts through our own cultural context, rather than accept or dismiss them fully and immediately.

a reply to: nonspecific

Well that's sad nonspecific. It really is.

See, I'm a believer in Christ. I do not do church, I do not do priests, I do not do judgement and raising hell in the name of Christ, which has always been a backward approach in my book. Nor do I run from scientific and logical thought, and I do not consider these things that make up my approach to life to be mutually exclusive in any way, shape, or form.

And the really sad thing is, if I bump into you at Bloodstock this year, well I am going to buy you a beer, even if you are working, and even when we clink our plastic glasses together, I will now be aware that because I hold a religious belief, the chances are that you will be looking over the top of your glass at me, wondering when I will do something to vindicate your lack of trust.

Bud... Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, and a whole plethora of other religions, all boast some pretty epic dudes and dudettes. It's being able to tell when someone is so crazy with their beliefs that they pose a hazard to the health of others, that is a mark of discernment. Hell, even I have to use that sort of instinct occasionally! That's healthy.

It feels pretty bad to hear that you would not be able to trust me because I have faith.

I guess with all the craziness in the world, I do understand why. But it is very sad none the less.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Honestly, trust and faith are synonymous. It is sad that someone cannot trust another who has faith.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

It's good you brought some of that up!

I feel that the moment I truly started to 'mature,' was when I started to focus on my own areas of incomprehension almost exclusively rather than what I perceived to be the errors of others.

And an excellent phrase you use, "areas of incomprehension. We can so easily think that we have a full grasp on things. That we might be able to fashion for ourselves a flawless understanding and in doing so, well, the fault must lie elsewhere rather than our own incomprehension

I don't feel distrust of religious people, I understand their differing reasons for being so. An ass is an ass religious or not.

I will say welcome to freedom, it's like stepping out of prison only to realize you were never locked in

We all have some faith in something.

I feel much the same as the OP. the intolerance of any viewpoint that contradicts the childish superstition the religious hold is indicative of the deranged logic and blind programming required to truly believe in an omnipotent supernatural entity controlling everything and that also created everything and can solve all your problems for you if you pray to him/she/it.

A complete lack of ANY scientific evidence to support the existence of such a being makes belief in it not only irrational but erratic and idiotic behavior.

Sorry, but if someone cannot figure out that 2000 year old ghost stories written by scholars who were thieves and con-artists and that were designed to control imbecilic uneducated settlements and steal land and property on a massive scale are not only complete nonsense but detrimental to society at large. I'd rather hire a sane person instead.

It's all retarded, if you honestly believe in any 'God' you are crazy, you are wasting your time and a lot of other peoples time, whilst we all sit and wait for you to stop frothing nonsensical horse-shjt and starting wars and manufacturing controversies that you pull out of your self-righteous arrogant backward asses. Some of us would like to get on with a little thing called 'progress' but you religious people are holding us ALL back with your stupid beliefs and 'holy wars' etc.

For some time now I have stopped trusting religious types. I'm not in the business of being nasty to folk I just have no time for the confrontational hostility that manifests if you say that their precious invisible sky wizard is about as real as a #ing card board cut out of something that wasn't even real to start with. So I just smile and give them a wide berth.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I have found religious people to not only be unreliable, untrustworthy and flaky, they seem to also have an inherent laziness and sense of entitlement that the sane rational people do not. I wouldn't trust any of them with any machinery, finance or decision making.

Would you put someone who swore blind the Harry Potter books were real and that wizards and magic exist in charge of anything other than something a trained chimp or a child could handle? Of course bloody not, but that's just what you are doing when you put religion into the mix with anything you care to name. It's a detriment. It always is. If it's not an excuse for violence then it's an excuse for bigotry, or persecution or any one of a dozen unsavory ways to try and lord it over the 'non believers'

All this crap about banning the confederate flag is a perfect example. It's crap. All the murders in the US and this one brings the #ing world to it's knees because of skin color and you guessed it, religion. So now it's not about the tragedy any more, it's about a flag now. The MSM has decided to give it to the racist pigs, tearing it from the hands of those for who it held a different meaning and was not remotely an anti-black or racist flag like all this pish would have us believe. of course it is that now though. Nobody can fly or wave that flag without being branded a racist.

This is all only happening because the murders took place in a CHURCH. If this had happened at a train station or a mall or any other public place we would not be listening to all this # on a never ending loop.

This is all and sundry yielding to pressure from the rabid religious busybodies that thrive on creating aggro in any form they can.

All religious people have a serious mental problem that is like a cancer on modern society. 90% of the worlds problems can be traced back to religion in one form or another. It is used to justify, murder, genocide, terrorism, oppression and war. The reason this perpetuates is a lot of the powers that be are made up of these rabid bible-bashing corrupt evil bastards.

Want to make things better? Never mind banning flags. Ban that stupid book that has caused more death than any other manuscript in the history of the human race. Your dumb backward BIBLE. Shove it up your collective backward arses along with your koran or whatever stupid crap you follow. It will take centuries to un-do the damage this nonsense has caused to our species. Good job idiots.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: nonspecific

There are a few ancient technologies that are infrequently utilized in modern times. So, I would still find value in it. In fact, some of these were used as inspiration for my own inventions.

In the example above, either way, any dwelling drawn would fit the requirements.

Culture and technology can change how we see the world, likely in deeper ways than we are aware. Even so, those living 2000 years ago still lived in roughly the same universe as us with the same set of 'data' available (the universe itself).

In a way, it's like a different language but with much deeper subtleties. Instead of writing it off as gibberish, there might actually be more going on than perceived. Personally, I feel it's important to understand the concepts through our own cultural context, rather than accept or dismiss them fully and immediately.

I have no issue building a house to a 2000 year old design my issue would be with the reasoning behind doing so.

I recently spent some time working on a straw bale house based on a design that is many hundreds of years old, the custome chose this design because it was the most ecological and energy efficient way of building and matched the enviroment the property was located in.

As I said I do not dismiss the opinions of those with a religious belief, i find I am forced to question the reasoning for the decisions.

People are as multifaceted as the universe. Some areas are underdeveloped or in development. A brilliant surgeon has put all his energy and time to become just that. He has not had time or put any effort into developing other aspects of his personality or being. Where his expertise stops, he might rely on the popular explanation as he knows no better. An easy way out so to speak. This does not devalue him in any way of being a brilliant surgeon, though, it might affect his professional decisions depending on his belief systems value of human life etc. Take the abortion question for example.

A belief or faith is normally adopted when you know no better, a sort of virtual tit to suck on while gathering info to know better or you are just being satisfied suckling when there is no desire to know better. For example, since it is discussed in this thread a lot, in the case of religion, knowing oneself removes the need to suck on that virtual tit. And in my own experience, it is the hardest thing to learn, it is not easy to be honest about ones own shortcomings and fears, not to mention letting go of your unfounded beliefs.

Most would cling to their beliefs tooth and nail rather than confront themselves on a mental level. I guess in a material world, there is no value in the spiritual, so why make the effort, there is seemingly no gain, only loss of belief and precious time to be occupied with something else whether it be the bread or the circus.

Just my two cents...

After sleeping on this subject I feel I have to try and clarify my thought on this, not an easy thing to do as they are constantly changing.

The first thing I would like to say is I do not have an innate distrust for anyone who has a religious belief, I do not dismiss there opinions without reason nor do I look own on them in any way.

I simply do not have the ability to understand where this comes from and how it can used as a moral compass in todays society.

It may have come across that I do not believe in a god and this is not the case, I am an actice member of ATS for gods sake? Belevieng in a supreme is nothing compared to some of the things I am prepeared to contemplate.

I have recently been giving consideration to the idea that the world we live in is in fact an artificially constructed simulation and that is no less bizzare than the idea of a supreme bieng. Admitting this should really make my argument invalid but as I said before my issue is not with belief or faith but with baseing my opinions of people or situations on that fact alone.

A few members have expressed sadness at my thoughts on this and that is something I agree with.

I also think that some members may have misunderstood my viewpoint and that is understanderble as I have found it hard to express something so complex, I do what I think is right because I think about the situation and try to make the most logical decision based on the information I have.

I do not steal because I understand the implications of doing so not because God told me not to and I will go to hell if if I break his rules.

originally posted by: angus1745

I feel much the same as the OP. the intolerance of any viewpoint that contradicts the childish superstition the religious hold is indicative of the deranged logic and blind programming required to truly believe in an omnipotent supernatural entity controlling everything and that also created everything and can solve all your problems for you if you pray to him/she/it.

A complete lack of ANY scientific evidence to support the existence of such a being makes belief in it not only irrational but erratic and idiotic behavior.

Sorry, but if someone cannot figure out that 2000 year old ghost stories written by scholars who were thieves and con-artists and that were designed to control imbecilic uneducated settlements and steal land and property on a massive scale are not only complete nonsense but detrimental to society at large. I'd rather hire a sane person instead.

It's all retarded, if you honestly believe in any 'God' you are crazy, you are wasting your time and a lot of other peoples time, whilst we all sit and wait for you to stop frothing nonsensical horse-shjt and starting wars and manufacturing controversies that you pull out of your self-righteous arrogant backward asses. Some of us would like to get on with a little thing called 'progress' but you religious people are holding us ALL back with your stupid beliefs and 'holy wars' etc.

For some time now I have stopped trusting religious types. I'm not in the business of being nasty to folk I just have no time for the confrontational hostility that manifests if you say that their precious invisible sky wizard is about as real as a #ing card board cut out of something that wasn't even real to start with. So I just smile and give them a wide berth.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I have found religious people to not only be unreliable, untrustworthy and flaky, they seem to also have an inherent laziness and sense of entitlement that the sane rational people do not. I wouldn't trust any of them with any machinery, finance or decision making.

Would you put someone who swore blind the Harry Potter books were real and that wizards and magic exist in charge of anything other than something a trained chimp or a child could handle? Of course bloody not, but that's just what you are doing when you put religion into the mix with anything you care to name. It's a detriment. It always is. If it's not an excuse for violence then it's an excuse for bigotry, or persecution or any one of a dozen unsavory ways to try and lord it over the 'non believers'

All this crap about banning the confederate flag is a perfect example. It's crap. All the murders in the US and this one brings the #ing world to it's knees because of skin color and you guessed it, religion. So now it's not about the tragedy any more, it's about a flag now. The MSM has decided to give it to the racist pigs, tearing it from the hands of those for who it held a different meaning and was not remotely an anti-black or racist flag like all this pish would have us believe. of course it is that now though. Nobody can fly or wave that flag without being branded a racist.

This is all only happening because the murders took place in a CHURCH. If this had happened at a train station or a mall or any other public place we would not be listening to all this # on a never ending loop.

This is all and sundry yielding to pressure from the rabid religious busybodies that thrive on creating aggro in any form they can.

All religious people have a serious mental problem that is like a cancer on modern society. 90% of the worlds problems can be traced back to religion in one form or another. It is used to justify, murder, genocide, terrorism, oppression and war. The reason this perpetuates is a lot of the powers that be are made up of these rabid bible-bashing corrupt evil bastards.

Want to make things better? Never mind banning flags. Ban that stupid book that has caused more death than any other manuscript in the history of the human race. Your dumb backward BIBLE. Shove it up your collective backward arses along with your koran or whatever stupid crap you follow. It will take centuries to un-do the damage this nonsense has caused to our species. Good job idiots.

I would thank you for your viewpoints but would like to seperate our views on this if I may.

The reason for this is that I am trying to understand the reasons behind my thoughts on this whereas you seem to have made up your mind already and seem unlikley to gain further insight.

Completely agree. Though spiritual and appreciate anyone meditating, developing their lucid dream and astral walks, and seeking to wake up and discover who they are in spirit and perfect. Its religious programming, fundamental beliefs that are very dangerous, and dumb people down into boxes. They are run by very dark controlling predators to enslave.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: ProfessorChaos
How can you think these people are "brilliant" and have "amazing insight" if you distrust them out of hand because of their religion?

Because maybe they say or do things that I find brilliant or insightfull before I then discover they have religious beliefs.

I hope this clarifies the statement.

If you don't mind me saying, that's a little pathetic, by the same argument you could say someone who is an atheist would have motives based on their beliefs - or lack of them, it gets a little confusing. Someones beliefs in anything - faith, politics, sports etc are part of their whole - not the whole in itself, unless it's someone who is absolutely geared towards a particular ideology whatever that ideology may happen to be.

I most certainly do not mind you saying so.

My lack of understanding faith makes me question those that do, how can I trust someone that belives something with no factual basis whatsoever and who will more than likely judge someone badly who has a similar but "different" belief.

As I said no ill intended I simply fail to see any logic in religious belief and that causes me concern.

You may wish to look up what the Hippocratic oath is. Someones faith, political leanings or anything else should not influence their judgement or the treatment they provide. If you think that someone has a faith, and that having that faith will influence how they will treat you.................. well, I've got to say that probably says more about you than the person giving the treatment.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: ProfessorChaos
How can you think these people are "brilliant" and have "amazing insight" if you distrust them out of hand because of their religion?

Because maybe they say or do things that I find brilliant or insightfull before I then discover they have religious beliefs.

I hope this clarifies the statement.

If you don't mind me saying, that's a little pathetic, by the same argument you could say someone who is an atheist would have motives based on their beliefs - or lack of them, it gets a little confusing. Someones beliefs in anything - faith, politics, sports etc are part of their whole - not the whole in itself, unless it's someone who is absolutely geared towards a particular ideology whatever that ideology may happen to be.

I most certainly do not mind you saying so.

My lack of understanding faith makes me question those that do, how can I trust someone that belives something with no factual basis whatsoever and who will more than likely judge someone badly who has a similar but "different" belief.

As I said no ill intended I simply fail to see any logic in religious belief and that causes me concern.

You may wish to look up what the Hippocratic oath is. Someones faith, political leanings or anything else should not influence their judgement or the treatment they provide. If you think that someone has a faith, and that having that faith will influence how they will treat you.................. well, I've got to say that probably says more about you than the person giving the treatment.

I am aware of the hipocratic oath but what happens if your religious views were to go against those of the oath you have taken.

Can someone simply put there beliefs aside.

As I said further back in the thread I somewhat retracted my origional statement and adjusted it to say that I have to question the rational behind the actions of those of a religious nature more than someone who holds no such views.

I hope I have explained the difference between the two.

Because maybe they say or do things that I find brilliant or insightfull before I then discover they have religious beliefs

How very odd. You've closed your mind off to Billions of thoughts and ideas. Maybe you are still evolving intellectually and this is a phase you are going through. One hopes.

*If you ever find yourself on a surgical table, will you inquire whether the doctor is another so-called idiot before you let him help you out? Or advertise "atheists only, please'.

This is one of the most bigoted posts I've ever read. Wallow in it, sir.

originally posted by: angeldoll

Because maybe they say or do things that I find brilliant or insightfull before I then discover they have religious beliefs

How very odd. You've closed your mind off to Billions of thoughts and ideas. Maybe you are still evolving intellectually and this is a phase you are going through. One hopes.

*If you ever find yourself on a surgical table, will you inquire whether the doctor is another so-called idiot before you let him help you out? Or advertise "atheists only, please'.

This is one of the most bigoted posts I've ever read. Wallow in it, sir.

I can only assume that you got as far as the single sentance you quoted and then decided to wade in with a hit and run post?

We are right now currently on page 5 of this discussion as to my feelings on this.

If you had taken the time to read a little more then maybe your feelings would I hope be a little different.