What the heck happened to America?

a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Let me interpret your post so I can better understand.

1. You dislike the Tea Party movement but don't want a bigger government (telling us what to eat, fine us, take care of those too lazy to care for themselves).

2. Tell people what their rights are, based on...?

3. End political correctness by adopting political incorrectness?

4. End fear mongering media stories. No more true stories, just those which leave viewers with that feel-good feeling day in and day out. Why bother reporting bad news, or even truth. Just put positive spin on all stories.

Have I got these right?

I cant see the problem with getting rid of the Confederate flag. With the flag that symbolises a divide in the country you are merely states of America. Do you not want them to take measures to UNITE the country, no matter how small it may be.

Nothing will happen and the country you once loved will further decline until racial divisions and xenophobic tendencies are removed.

The government is trying to get you to eat healthy food to tackle the obesity crisis in most societies. Would you rather they not provide the information and let you make poor diet decisions that will inevitably increase government spending?

As highlighted by most responses the media is the culprit, but you perpetuate this journalistic approach by watching it. Without the demand, there will be a paradigm shift in broadcasting to appeal to the viewers.

Won't even talk about guns.

Either way good luck america. I think you may need it. God speed seems appropriate.

originally posted by: rossacus
I cant see the problem with getting rid of the Confederate flag. With the flag that symbolises a divide in the country you are merely states of America. Do you not want them to take measures to UNITE the country, no matter how small it may be.

Nothing will happen and the country you once loved will further decline until racial divisions and xenophobic tendencies are removed.

Well, have you ever heard the ol' cliché, "Out of sight, out of mind?"

If you start removing and banning things that are a major part of our country's history--as painful as some of the history is--then we are doomed to forget about it and repeat. Should the Freedom Center in Cincinnati be banned because it's a reminder of slavery and the underground railroad? Isn't slavery the big issue with why people thing the Confederate Flag needs to be removed?

Things will and do happen when chunks of history are removed from view: Societies tend to forget. You can't legislate away hatred that exists in the hearts of people, but regardless of what many pessimistic naysayers on this site may say, racism exists in a relatively few hearts in America--it's just that they sometimes have a loud voice and lots of media attention.

The government is trying to get you to eat healthy food to tackle the obesity crisis in most societies. Would you rather they not provide the information and let you make poor diet decisions that will inevitably increase government spending?

You're missing the point, here. It's not the government's job to get me to eat healthily, or to remain fit (both things I do fine on my own). I would rather they not provide information at all and realize that most Americans are functioning adults with access to doctors and libraries and books and apps and the internet, all of which are places where we can find out about healthy habits for our health; we don't need to spend tax dollars on it, too.

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Blame the media. Blame our so called "leader". Ever notice anything like the # storms we've had with other presidents? This guy loves to stir the #. It seems to be all he does. He should go down in history as the great divider. Seems to be all he's done.

He's a community organizer, and that's what they do. They stir up the pot.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not exactly. There have been commentaries on CNN about removing the Jefferson Memorial. McConnell wants Jeff Davis removed from the Kentucky Statehouse grounds. And there is a New York Times piece about banning Gone With the Wind. This is hardly JUST about banning the battle flag.

IMO, they know they won't get any gun action out of this, so they found something they can ban and they have the bit between their teeth and are running with it because they have everyone cowed with PC.

You do realize that nothing will come of any of those demands right?

I once used to think so, but I used to think a lot of things would "never" happen too and lo and behond ... there they are.

And I'm not talking about gay marriage.

a reply to: rossacus

In case you haven't noticed - This isn't uniting us. It's dividing us.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not exactly. There have been commentaries on CNN about removing the Jefferson Memorial. McConnell wants Jeff Davis removed from the Kentucky Statehouse grounds. And there is a New York Times piece about banning Gone With the Wind. This is hardly JUST about banning the battle flag.

IMO, they know they won't get any gun action out of this, so they found something they can ban and they have the bit between their teeth and are running with it because they have everyone cowed with PC.

You do realize that nothing will come of any of those demands right?

I once used to think so, but I used to think a lot of things would "never" happen too and lo and behond ... there they are.

And I'm not talking about gay marriage.

Want to make a bet then?

a reply to: SlapMonkey
Fair point. I understand the point of being doomed to repeat, but that's the whole purpose of education in school, to understand the past. Being reminded constantly is not the way to move on. It reminds the public of the of past, some of which who are unable look past the perception of their fore fathers. The person who killed all the black people in the church believed in segregation, learnt from fundamentalist type rationale. Due you think that Germany would be one of the greatest economies if they paraded the nazi flag in many locations. They are already aware of their past and wish to move on. Symbolising flags will halt this progression.

Your right it's not the government's place to educate you on diet. Unfortunately, many of the population don't take it upon themselves to better themselves, falling for consumerism in the form of junk food and refined sugars. You have taken it upon yourself to remain fit. Many do not. I will not patronise you by listing the many costs incurred as a result of obesity.

Do you not think that removing an horrific past from mainstream view is the best way to move on, limit racial/xenophobic hatred, when like you say, if they want to learn it that have access to the Internet?

a reply to: ketsuko
I can't understand the rationale unfortunately. If removing a flag that divides two regions makes you more divided, you deserve to be divided.

People see it as an infringement on their "freedom", as so often used by americans, to have the choice and the freewill to believe in what they want. It is not. It's a necessary step in uniting the country. You are one country and the flag represents a divide. I can't comprehend why americans would want such symbolism to remain. Your not gonna move on from guns, your not gonna provide free health care for all, you not gonna reduce the budget for military spending, so why not try and take adleast 1 step in the right direction. I have no emotional attachment to this flag as I am not American. But no one has said why they need the flag to remain other than the rights of americans and history lessons in the street.

Just to state I'm not attempting to annoy americans with my view on what this flag represents, just an opinion as always. I see moral outcrys all the time that don't necessarily happen in other countries. Instead of wanting to cling onto the past, I suggest except this inevitable decision and embrace it for the good all all genders, creeds and walks of life.

a reply to: rossacus

Actually, we are 50 states. We are people who value our individuality and independence.

The best way to unite such a group is NOT to force them but to convince them. This is not convincing anyone. It's attempting to force us to be together whether we want to be or not. Such a move only breeds further resentment and opens old wounds all over again.

Prior to this incident, no one really cared all that much about this flag, or the monuments, or the pop culture. In fact, a few of the states in question had held state referendums on the flags and they had passed by large margin, even with large black populations. NO ONE CARED.

Now all of a sudden, everyone is all offended for our sakes. The flag didn't cause this, the Civil War didn't cause this. Hatred caused this and Roof's own isolation drove him to it.

a reply to: ketsuko
Well obviously it mattered to some. And if no one cared why the moral outcry. Like a child having his toy taken away he wasn't playing with. If it's the complaint for the sake of complaining then fair enough.

It's hard to convince people. If it was, they would not have taken these measures to begin with. Have they not tried to convince you for the last 50 years?. Yet the hatred still flourishes. Desperate times require desperate measures. No one loses their identity as a result. Those that associate themselves will the underlying symbolism of the flag is what the government are trying to address.

Accept it is all I can say. It's very similar to gun rationale. I don't have a gun and I don't want a gun, but I will die before they take away my right to have a gun. Just plain weird.

It seems you don't want to be united. Priding yourself on individuality and independence is all good but when measures/tokens are implemented to make america smaller and united, it is rejected. Why such resistance? Do you enjoy the hatred for other races/regions (not you personally, as an american)

Like anything's going to come out of threats to ban a movie, suuuuure. However "historically" accurate GWTW was, it was still a sucky, painfully boring movie. The only semi-entertaining thing that came out of it was an over-used line.
If the idiot box networks don't want to air it again, no skin off anyone's nose. It'll fade in to oblivion where it belongs unless someone digs up a digital rental, like the offensive old blackface flicks. But rest assured, like the blackface flicks, no ban's genuinely in the works.

Maybe Americans as a whole isn't the only one who needs to get their unmentionables unbunched from their privates?


Edit: Dammit, wrong thread. My fault for having multiple threads open at once, but I'll leave it since it's been touched on here anyway.

originally posted by: rossacus
a reply to: SlapMonkey
Fair point. I understand the point of being doomed to repeat, but that's the whole purpose of education in school, to understand the past. Being reminded constantly is not the way to move on. It reminds the public of the of past, some of which who are unable look past the perception of their fore fathers. The person who killed all the black people in the church believed in segregation, learnt from fundamentalist type rationale. Due you think that Germany would be one of the greatest economies if they paraded the nazi flag in many locations. They are already aware of their past and wish to move on. Symbolising flags will halt this progression.

I lived in Germany for 1/10th of my 36-year life, so I know how far they took things concerning Nazi symbolism. Hell, you can't even do the 'Hitler salute' in public, as it is a crime, even though here, we'd consider it reprehensible practicing of your freedom of speech (which, it's okay to be offended). I disagree with the mentality of Germany's laws, even though I abhor everything that Hitler did and stood for, along with what his actions did to the world. People should have the freedom to display flags, or do whatever salutes offend me (I've gotten the middle-finger salute a few times) without the threat of arrest and jail time. Legislation does not create morality, and legislating the removal of things from public view under the guise of morality doesn't do anything.

Besides, banning the displaying of the swastika or making it illegal to deny the holocaust really hasn't done much to dissuade Nazis from existing in Germany, but what it does do is force groups like them underground and allow their ideology of hatred to fester and build pressure--not a good thing.

Linky

Do you not think that removing an horrific past from mainstream view is the best way to move on, limit racial/xenophobic hatred, when like you say, if they want to learn it that have access to the Internet?

No I do not. Like I said, when you hide or remove history, it gets forgotten, and then repeated. Slavery was a terrible, terrible part of American history, but that led to many noble things, like the underground railroad, the white abolitionists movement, the 13th-15th amendments to the constitution, the freedom to conduct the civil rights movement to help correct remaining wrongs, and eventually to a black president in the white house.

My point being that, because of slavery, our nation has shown great resolve in correcting the wrongs that it has done in the past--it is a great example of how, when things are wrong with our nation, we have the ability and fortitude to fix it.

I'm in no way glorifying slavery--it was (and still is, in some areas of the world) a horrible thing to do to another human being--but I am trying to shine a light on the fact that, if we remove painful parts of history, we won't be able to understand why we've come so far and for what reasons. You don't get to the truth (or, the best truth you can find) by ignoring the bad and only remembering the good. We need the whole picture in order to be whole people.

originally posted by: rossacus
a reply to: SlapMonkey
Fair point. I understand the point of being doomed to repeat, but that's the whole purpose of education in school, to understand the past. Being reminded constantly is not the way to move on. It reminds the public of the of past, some of which who are unable look past the perception of their fore fathers. The person who killed all the black people in the church believed in segregation, learnt from fundamentalist type rationale. Due you think that Germany would be one of the greatest economies if they paraded the nazi flag in many locations. They are already aware of their past and wish to move on. Symbolising flags will halt this progression.

I lived in Germany for 1/10th of my 36-year life, so I know how far they took things concerning Nazi symbolism. Hell, you can't even do the 'Hitler salute' in public, as it is a crime, even though here, we'd consider it reprehensible practicing of your freedom of speech (which, it's okay to be offended). I disagree with the mentality of Germany's laws, even though I abhor everything that Hitler did and stood for, along with what his actions did to the world. People should have the freedom to display flags, or do whatever salutes offend me (I've gotten the middle-finger salute a few times) without the threat of arrest and jail time. Legislation does not create morality, and legislating the removal of things from public view under the guise of morality doesn't do anything.

Besides, banning the displaying of the swastika or making it illegal to deny the holocaust really hasn't done much to dissuade Nazis from existing in Germany, but what it does do is force groups like them underground and allow their ideology of hatred to fester and build pressure--not a good thing.

Linky

Do you not think that removing an horrific past from mainstream view is the best way to move on, limit racial/xenophobic hatred, when like you say, if they want to learn it that have access to the Internet?

No I do not. Like I said, when you hide or remove history, it gets forgotten, and then repeated. Slavery was a terrible, terrible part of American history, but that led to many noble things, like the underground railroad, the white abolitionists movement, the 13th-15th amendments to the constitution, the freedom to conduct the civil rights movement to help correct remaining wrongs, and eventually to a black president in the white house.

My point being that, because of slavery, our nation has shown great resolve in correcting the wrongs that it has done in the past--it is a great example of how, when things are wrong with our nation, we have the ability and fortitude to fix it.

I'm in no way glorifying slavery--it was (and still is, in some areas of the world) a horrible thing to do to another human being--but I am trying to shine a light on the fact that, if we remove painful parts of history, we won't be able to understand why we've come so far and for what reasons. You don't get to the truth (or, the best truth you can find) by ignoring the bad and only remembering the good. We need the whole picture in order to be whole people.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Fair point and we'll articulated. My view is that stuff like this should remain in the history books. Yes it can be used as a symbol of where we were to where we are today but some people use it as justification for hate type ideology. Thanks for your response.

a reply to: SlapMonkey
Watched a film called "the giver" which addresses alot of the points you made. I strongly recommend watching it if you can. It's a great concept and well produced.