Is the Confederate flag a Sigil being attacked on purpose?

The ignorance on this site is just sad. Deny it they claim, give me a break. I thought Fox News was bad, but you guys take the cake. Not all of you, but... ATS has fallen so low. Above Politics was worst thing to happen to it. All it does is continue to divide us. People no longer look at history, they are completely ignorant of the past yet talk as if they were their.

So much hate for a Battle Flag that has stood for Southern Pride for years, but the KKK uses it in the sixties, (they never adopted it as their own) and people get all bent out of shape. It's pathetic. They wave the American Flag as well, no hate for that one though right? Never mind that it flew over a slave nation for 85 years, never mind that it flew on the slave ships; all that doesn't matter right? That flag isn't bad, it stands for Freedom and Liberty. Yeah...ask the rest of the world what they think it stands for?

This is like the burning of the books people. If it offends it must be destroyed. Which one of you is going to be the first to burn the American Flag? While were at lets destroy that Egyptian Obelisk in DC? After all Egypt built their empire on slave labor.

originally posted by: Vageryn
The ignorance on this site is just sad. Deny it they claim, give me a break. I thought Fox News was bad, but you guys take the cake. Not all of you, but... ATS has fallen so low.

It's not really from ATS, it's just coming from the uneducated nutrient deprived pc crowd, plus a few old smucks suffering from alzheimer's. This flag stuff is not really worth arguing over, most of the flag haters have an attention span of a squirrel....

There is more slavery today, than there ever was at any point in the past. Where's the outrage over that?

This whole fiasco about the confederate flag is a red herring.



a reply to: queenofswords

originally posted by: imitator

originally posted by: Vageryn
The ignorance on this site is just sad. Deny it they claim, give me a break. I thought Fox News was bad, but you guys take the cake. Not all of you, but... ATS has fallen so low.

It's not really from ATS, it's just coming from the uneducated nutrient deprived pc crowd, plus a few old smucks suffering from alzheimer's. This flag stuff is not really worth arguing over, most of the flag haters have an attention span of a squirrel....

I know. I was just so fed up at that point, it was seriously shaking my faith in humanity. I just wish people would wake up and see what is going on around them.

Yeesh, that "their" is just glaring at me. Dern 4 hour edit window.

originally posted by: highfromphoenix

originally posted by: queenofswords
There is an independent spirit in the South. Southerners have always felt it in their "DNA". The Battle Flag now commonly called the Confederate Flag is a sygil that invokes that spirit.

As the federal government encroaches more and more upon States' rights, as the Executive branch usurps more and more away from our elected representatives, as the globalists and UN push for more and more power over Americans, that symbol of independent fighting spirit becomes more representative of The People.

"They" can't have that, now, can they? They have to kill the sygil in order to diminish the spirit.

Bull#.

It's racist and you know it's racist!

Even though it was raised over fields where whites were killing whites for the very large part.

If you ask me what really drives these federally minded progressives crazy about the flag is that it symbolizes rebellion to federal authority and my don't the love that! With all the state activity of late to push back on the federal overreach the fed power lovers just cant miss an opportunity to attack this state symbol.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

It's like we can't focus on more than one thing. Off-topic but America said no to fast track, no to the TPP in all the ways we were supposed to. Once it hit the House we did even more, calling our reps to tell them not to vote it through... then once it did, we called our Senators.

I'm not sure what else we were supposed to do.

Was it really wise for all of us to get sucked up in a discussion on this flag? The left is pointing to the flag like "they did it". And so here come the pitchfork and torches.

Remember it was just a few years ago the head of Homeland Security was warning all and sundry about folks that flew the Gadsden Flag.....another flag that has been aimed at the Feds now as abusers of power.

This flag thing is purely political.

I wonder if Southern Rock bands will still use the flag...
As an outsider, I always regarded it as a symbol of rebellion against the big government of Washington.
I know about the KKK appropriating it, but that always struck me as the sort of public relations thing to try and get more Southern people to accept them, rather like how the National Front in the UK used the St. George's cross.

I still see it terms of rockabillies and back street tattoo flashes for those who want to show their spirit of rebellion and I think that is what is in danger of being crushed here. Racism is such a big hammer to beat any idea down that it's hard to see how supporters of the flag can withstand it and it strikes me that TPTB have just been waiting for the event that would let them swing that hammer.

It's a message. We will crush you, or we will control you.

a reply to: queenofswords

Mostly, but these threads are all starting to run together with the same hyperbole.

a reply to: queenofswords

The confederate flag is a historical symbol, sadly those that do not learn from history tend to make the same mistakes again, it should be a reminder a lesson, sadly those that wants to erase history are the ones that history has bypassed them in grade schools.

And that is a fact, you can erase history or a historical symbol but the hate, racism and bigotry will still be there.

Nothing but fools, think that a destroying a symbol will open the door to nirvana and utopia.

This is a distraction while the government keeps their vile selling of Americas citizens right to big corporate entities to take over.

close to half of all those who died in our wars died in the civil war.
I'm a history buff, i love reading old newspapers and going through the journals of my grandmother and great grandmother.
you may disagree as to what the true motives of that war was, or what that flag stands for today. but what it symbolizes to me is a time when our nation, our families and our people were ripped apart causing a great amount of pain and misery.
there's a difference between learning from the past and living in the past.
there is no legal slavery today although it could be argued that we are approaching a type of economic slavery that could end up being much worse. maybe instead of arguing about the ancient relics that are around us and weather or not we should allow them to exist, we should be diving into their histories, connecting the dots that led us to this point in time.
A house divided still will not stand!

You may have heard of this TV show. It is The Dukes of Hazard which had a dodge charger called the general lee with confederate flag painted on the roof. I guess that show will not be shown in reruns anymore thanks to one nutjob.

originally posted by: celticdog
I guess that show will not be shown in reruns anymore thanks to one nutjob.

If you're going to make a claim, you should be sure it's true... That is not.

Warner Brothers to Stop Manufacture of General Lee Toy Car

a reply to: Logarock

If you ask me what really drives these federally minded progressives crazy about the flag is that it symbolizes rebellion to federal authority and my don't the love that! With all the state activity of late to push back on the federal overreach the fed power lovers just cant miss an opportunity to attack this state symbol.

Nailed it! That flag has a powerful meaning. It is not the meaning "they" want to attach to it, the one of racism. It is the real spirit of the flag...the spirit of the Declaration of Independence....that "they" don't like.

Can you imagine if blacks and whites all flew that flag on their houses, their cars, and their businesses when government starts their over-reaching push on something We The People disagree with. THAT would be a million times more powerful than a written complaint on some social media venue. There is power in that flag, and "they" don't like it.

A BATTLEFLAG is to carry in front of a fighting group.
SLAVE OWNERS had NO FLAG representing SLAVE ownership.
THAT flag wasn't the confederate governments flag.
The Swastika was cooped for a national SOCIALIST party.
The South sees the battle flag as a symbol of SPIRT not racism.

a reply to: Nucleardoom

Well said.

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: queenofswords

The confederate flag is a historical symbol, sadly those that do not learn from history tend to make the same mistakes again, it should be a reminder a lesson, sadly those that wants to erase history are the ones that history has bypassed them in grade schools.

And that is a fact, you can erase history or a historical symbol but the hate, racism and bigotry will still be there.

Nothing but fools, think that a destroying a symbol will open the door to nirvana and utopia.

This is a distraction while the government keeps their vile selling of Americas citizens right to big corporate entities to take over.

Do you know how wealth is created?

By the 'labor' put into creating a saleable product. The raw materials don't create value, the means (land and plant) don't create value. It is the 'labor' that creates value which in turn creates wealth hence the obcession with 'productivity'.

The south (and much of the north as well) was built on the 'labor' of Black Slaves. The wealth was a result of that labor. And value and wealth today are still a product of labor - of the endentured kind.

As a prior poster of Irish heritage said. Many sold their labor for passage. The Black Slaves didn't have that option, the very product of their bodies, their very real labor - their children - became additional 'labor' to steal.

The Irish, Chinese, Italian, Mexicans and other immagrant groups do sell their labor very cheap these days but they do have a minimal say and receive a tiny fraction of their productivity back in Dollars.

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of all of that and I believe that those who say it's about culture are right - it's about a culture of oppression and theft. The Gentility that y'all are talking about was only possible because of stolen labor. The nice things about the South, the food, the music largely came out of Black Slave Culture.

I don't believe that.

Wealth is created by an idea taken to fruition. That entails planning, management, marketing, and a host of other things INCLUDING labor acquisition and maintenance. It takes both, in other words. If robots ever take over the labor force, wealth will continue to be created.

The people of those times did not see themselves as stealing labor. African slavers sold their own people to slave dealers. Those dealers, in turn, sold them to north and south plantation owners. Those owners for the most part took very good care of their slaves and some considered them members of their families.

I know....We cannot fathom that mindset today, but those people were not thieves as you call them, and today 55% of all blacks in this country live in the South. It is their home just like it is home to the ancestors of the slave owners. They share a bond, a history, the good the bad and the ugly. They are Americans, not Africans. It's time they stop with the preceeding description, imo.

originally posted by: queenofswords
I don't believe that.

Wealth is created by an idea taken to fruition. That entails planning, management, marketing, and a host of other things INCLUDING labor acquisition and maintenance. It takes both, in other words. If robots ever take over the labor force, wealth will continue to be created.

The people of those times did not see themselves as stealing labor. African slavers sold their own people to slave dealers. Those dealers, in turn, sold them to north and south plantation owners. Those owners for the most part took very good care of their slaves and some considered them members of their families.

I know....We cannot fathom that mindset today, but those people were not thieves as you call them, and today 55% of all blacks in this country live in the South. It is their home just like it is home to the ancestors of the slave owners. They share a bond, a history, the good the bad and the ugly. They are Americans, not Africans. It's time they stop with the preceeding description, imo.

The planning, designing and management you speak of - is 'labor'.

Since it is apparent that the terms are not understood I'll direct you to:

From Adams Smiths "The Wealth of Nations" - the bible of "Voodoo"

Classical[edit]

The classical economics of Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and their followers focuses on physical resources in defining its factors of production, and discusses the distribution of cost and value among these factors. Adam Smith and David Ricardo referred to the "component parts of price"[6] as the costs of using:


Land or natural resource — naturally-occurring goods like water, air, soil, minerals, flora and fauna that are used in the creation of products. The payment for use and the received income of a land owner is rent.


Labor — human effort used in production which also includes technical and marketing expertise. The payment for someone else's labor and all income received from ones own labor is wages. Labor can also be classified as the physical and mental contribution of an employee to the production of the good(s).


The capital stock — human-made goods which are used in the production of other goods. These include machinery, tools, and buildings.

From his contemporary Karl Marx:

Marx considered the "elementary factors of the labor-process" or "productive forces" to be:

Labor

The subject of labor (objects transformed by labor)

The instruments of labor (or means of labor).[7]

The "subject of labor" refers to natural resources and raw materials, including land.
The "instruments of labor" are tools, in the broadest sense. They include factory buildings, infrastructure, and other human-made objects that facilitate labor's production of goods and services.

This view seems similar to the classical perspective described above. But unlike the classical school and many economists today, Marx made a clear distinction between labor actually done and an individual's "labor power" or ability to work.

Labor done is often referred to nowadays as "effort" or "labor services." Labor-power might be seen as a stock which can produce a flow of labor.

Labor, not labor power, is the key factor of production for Marx and the basis for Marx's labor theory of value. The hiring of labor power only results in the production of goods or services ("use-values") when organized and regulated (often by the "management"). How much labor is actually done depends on the importance of conflict or tensions within the labor process.

From wikipedia which has other even simpler expositions of the basics.

If you need or want pictures:

www.henrygeorge.org...

a reply to: FyreByrd

LOL. Okay, I see where you're going.

In the "labor vs. management" sense of the meaning, labor is workers and management is bosses and/or owners. That's where I was going.

a reply to: queenofswords

You can't separate the confederate battle flag from racism and violence. It is a BATTLE FLAG; it is about violence. And It was a battle against the idea that black people were equal to and could not be owned by white people. It has nothing to do with independence- it was about maintaining the South's dependence on black people to do all of their work for free.


Of course there are good things in Southern Culture and history... pretty much none of which happened under the confederate battle flag. That flag flew over one thing and one thing only- a bunch of whiskey soaked uneducated redneck children getting ground into hamburger because their daddy didn't teach them to respect others. The South is not a barren cultural wasteland devoid of any inspiring imagery that doesn't look like a sunburnt hillbilly's backside in overalls, so why not just adopt a sigil that means something good?