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First school in nation to offer LGBT Studies Course --- why?

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posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:00 PM
link   

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
And let's be honest--if it were some other subject, say intelligent design, you'd be at the forefront about criticizing the heck out of it.


Nope. Don't care. I think theists and atheists arguing about an unknowable is pointless and laughable.


"Don't care."

Exactly.

You definition of "diversity" includes only those things you agree with and no more. Thus, by it's definition, you don't really believe in diversity. That's fine. Most people have their prejudices. Just be honest about it.


I guess you don't understand "don't care". If my kids wanted to study religion, fill your boots. Only way to cut through BS is to experience it. I'm totally honest. It's your perceptions that are off. It's cool. You're not used to someone that thinks for themselves on any given issue.


If I misunderstood, I'm sorry but you missed the greater point, focusing only on the religious aspect of the hypothetical. There are bound to be things, be they religious or conservative or pro gun that you would not want in school, yes?


Do I look like a fish?


Do you swim?




posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:48 PM
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Did anyone bother to do any research about this school?

Because this is not some relaxed, playtime school.

This is a seriously college-prep high school with a focus on art and performance.

The students spend their mornings doing core curriculum, and then devote the balance of the day to intensive study of their chosen area of art, music or performance.

The students easily out perform all students in the district in both English and Math. The majority of students rated "advanced" in both areas.

Approximately 90% of the students attend college, and more than 30% of those finish some form of graduate school

These are smart, serious kids. They're not flakes.

If they want to take an elective course on the history of lawn ornaments, they've certainly earned it.

I doubt many in this thread could match these students academically.
edit on 23-6-2015 by Moresby because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:48 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If it was really about educating about different it would not be about a group that is already accepted. It'd be about gun ownership or Reaganomics--that would really be educating the students about people different than them.


Yeah and we can see how open THOSE people are towards Gay issues. "I'll take my kids out and home school them...." So it's a one way street. It doesn't work that way. Besides, why do we teach history? If we're white, say, that means we already know what we have experienced in the past? No, thus it's taught.


So if other people refuse to teach "diversity" that is an excuse to not teach "diversity" all the whole time crowing about diversity? That does not make a lot of sense.

The excuses sound like Bill Clinton's "I tried Marijuana but I didn't inhale." False. Dishonest. And, frankly, unbelievable.

I'd much more respect an honest answer of "so they support GLBT, deal with it" than this disingenuous nonsense about "diversity" and "tolerance."

If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "diversity" gay is already a thing there.
If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "tolerance" it is already tolerated.

Honestly it's about supporting something they already agree on and it's an echo chamber for their views and they don't want any dissention.

Honestly--which yearbook photo is more likely to be published at that school: a guy kissing his boyfriend at prom or a guy wearing an NRA hat?


And you know what, at 99% of the schools in this country, gays are WAY more persecuted, bullied, ostracized, than the other way around. Sorry, any other view is totally out there.

At any other school, especially outside of liberal areas, even the gays usually keep under the radar, including NOT going to prom with a guy or kissing a guy or god forbid, doing so in a yearbook picture.

And again, at a vast majority of the high schools across the country, both the studies AND culture are very hetero-normative, not the other way around. So why does it bother you that a school has it flipped around a bit (which I even doubt that. It's probably equalized now). Given everything I said is true about the majority of schools being "straight-privileged," what is it within you that is so bothered by a single class at some random high school that isn't?


So lack of diversity and prejudice at other schools justify it in this school. Got it. That's fine. Just be honest about it not really being about "diversity" and "tolerance."


But how do you know? From my experience of 25 years living in CA, California has ALWAYS been at the forefront of diversity education and diversity itself. CA and NY are the most diverse states in the union!

They teach a wide range of subjects, and I bet given the high-end nature of the school, it's a class-A education all around. Why do you assume it is some kind of dearth of information about various diverse things.

In my experience, liberal schools teach WAY more about a range of topics and cultures across the world. A conservative group will only want to teach about their culture and religion, whereas a progressive one will have kids studying history and religions from all over the world. These are just a few examples.

And if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW this is true about hyper conservatives.


Because liberal "diversity" is just as or even more narrow minded than so called "hyper conservatives." Heck we can see it in your own language and the labels you use. Those who scream about tolerance the most, tend to be the least tolerant just like those who complain about gays the most tend to have a bit of gay in them.


Then why do many conservatives historically only want Christian education or Christian monuments in schools/public spaces? No Hindu or Buddhist? Why do conservatives often WAIL against the shift away from a Euro-centric literature and history education, as it was in the past. It was liberals who shifted it to more balanced with world history and literature. Why do conservatives historically fight against LGBT rights in school? Why do so many conservatives fight against teaching let's say Latin American, NAtive American, or African American points of view? Why is it the progressives who are the opposite often?

On average.

But seriously, that is real in the education debates.
edit on 23-6-2015 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-6-2015 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If it was really about educating about different it would not be about a group that is already accepted. It'd be about gun ownership or Reaganomics--that would really be educating the students about people different than them.


Yeah and we can see how open THOSE people are towards Gay issues. "I'll take my kids out and home school them...." So it's a one way street. It doesn't work that way. Besides, why do we teach history? If we're white, say, that means we already know what we have experienced in the past? No, thus it's taught.


So if other people refuse to teach "diversity" that is an excuse to not teach "diversity" all the whole time crowing about diversity? That does not make a lot of sense.

The excuses sound like Bill Clinton's "I tried Marijuana but I didn't inhale." False. Dishonest. And, frankly, unbelievable.

I'd much more respect an honest answer of "so they support GLBT, deal with it" than this disingenuous nonsense about "diversity" and "tolerance."

If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "diversity" gay is already a thing there.
If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "tolerance" it is already tolerated.

Honestly it's about supporting something they already agree on and it's an echo chamber for their views and they don't want any dissention.

Honestly--which yearbook photo is more likely to be published at that school: a guy kissing his boyfriend at prom or a guy wearing an NRA hat?


And you know what, at 99% of the schools in this country, gays are WAY more persecuted, bullied, ostracized, than the other way around. Sorry, any other view is totally out there.

At any other school, especially outside of liberal areas, even the gays usually keep under the radar, including NOT going to prom with a guy or kissing a guy or god forbid, doing so in a yearbook picture.

And again, at a vast majority of the high schools across the country, both the studies AND culture are very hetero-normative, not the other way around. So why does it bother you that a school has it flipped around a bit (which I even doubt that. It's probably equalized now). Given everything I said is true about the majority of schools being "straight-privileged," what is it within you that is so bothered by a single class at some random high school that isn't?


So lack of diversity and prejudice at other schools justify it in this school. Got it. That's fine. Just be honest about it not really being about "diversity" and "tolerance."


But how do you know? From my experience of 25 years living in CA, California has ALWAYS been at the forefront of diversity education and diversity itself. CA and NY are the most diverse states in the union!

They teach a wide range of subjects, and I bet given the high-end nature of the school, it's a class-A education all around. Why do you assume it is some kind of dearth of information about various diverse things.

In my experience, liberal schools teach WAY more about a range of topics and cultures across the world. A conservative group will only want to teach about their culture and religion, whereas a progressive one will have kids studying history and religions from all over the world. These are just a few examples.

And if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW this is true about hyper conservatives.


Because liberal "diversity" is just as or even more narrow minded than so called "hyper conservatives." Heck we can see it in your own language and the labels you use. Those who scream about tolerance the most, tend to be the least tolerant just like those who complain about gays the most tend to have a bit of gay in them.


Then why do conservatives historically only want Christian education in schools? No Hindu or Buddhist? Why do conservatives often WAIL agains that shift away from a Euro-centric literature and history education, as it was in the past. Why is it the progressives who are the opposite.

On average.

But seriously, that is real in the education debates.


Why do liberals reject anything against global warming in schools? Gun classes/hunters safety classes? Free market economics? Reaganomics?

I'm not saying that some conservative are not against diversity--I'm just pointing out that many liberals also reject true diversity.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: Moresby

I did. Their website is posted on the last couple of pages. They are impressive.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:59 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If it was really about educating about different it would not be about a group that is already accepted. It'd be about gun ownership or Reaganomics--that would really be educating the students about people different than them.


Yeah and we can see how open THOSE people are towards Gay issues. "I'll take my kids out and home school them...." So it's a one way street. It doesn't work that way. Besides, why do we teach history? If we're white, say, that means we already know what we have experienced in the past? No, thus it's taught.


So if other people refuse to teach "diversity" that is an excuse to not teach "diversity" all the whole time crowing about diversity? That does not make a lot of sense.

The excuses sound like Bill Clinton's "I tried Marijuana but I didn't inhale." False. Dishonest. And, frankly, unbelievable.

I'd much more respect an honest answer of "so they support GLBT, deal with it" than this disingenuous nonsense about "diversity" and "tolerance."

If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "diversity" gay is already a thing there.
If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "tolerance" it is already tolerated.

Honestly it's about supporting something they already agree on and it's an echo chamber for their views and they don't want any dissention.

Honestly--which yearbook photo is more likely to be published at that school: a guy kissing his boyfriend at prom or a guy wearing an NRA hat?


And you know what, at 99% of the schools in this country, gays are WAY more persecuted, bullied, ostracized, than the other way around. Sorry, any other view is totally out there.

At any other school, especially outside of liberal areas, even the gays usually keep under the radar, including NOT going to prom with a guy or kissing a guy or god forbid, doing so in a yearbook picture.

And again, at a vast majority of the high schools across the country, both the studies AND culture are very hetero-normative, not the other way around. So why does it bother you that a school has it flipped around a bit (which I even doubt that. It's probably equalized now). Given everything I said is true about the majority of schools being "straight-privileged," what is it within you that is so bothered by a single class at some random high school that isn't?


So lack of diversity and prejudice at other schools justify it in this school. Got it. That's fine. Just be honest about it not really being about "diversity" and "tolerance."


But how do you know? From my experience of 25 years living in CA, California has ALWAYS been at the forefront of diversity education and diversity itself. CA and NY are the most diverse states in the union!

They teach a wide range of subjects, and I bet given the high-end nature of the school, it's a class-A education all around. Why do you assume it is some kind of dearth of information about various diverse things.

In my experience, liberal schools teach WAY more about a range of topics and cultures across the world. A conservative group will only want to teach about their culture and religion, whereas a progressive one will have kids studying history and religions from all over the world. These are just a few examples.

And if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW this is true about hyper conservatives.


Because liberal "diversity" is just as or even more narrow minded than so called "hyper conservatives." Heck we can see it in your own language and the labels you use. Those who scream about tolerance the most, tend to be the least tolerant just like those who complain about gays the most tend to have a bit of gay in them.


Then why do conservatives historically only want Christian education in schools? No Hindu or Buddhist? Why do conservatives often WAIL agains that shift away from a Euro-centric literature and history education, as it was in the past. Why is it the progressives who are the opposite.

On average.

But seriously, that is real in the education debates.


Why do liberals reject anything against global warming in schools? Gun classes/hunters safety classes? Free market economics? Reaganomics?

I'm not saying that some conservative are not against diversity--I'm just pointing out that many liberals also reject true diversity.


Do you realize how childish that sounds? And wrong. I pointed out a few pages back about this school's economics program. It's extensive.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If it was really about educating about different it would not be about a group that is already accepted. It'd be about gun ownership or Reaganomics--that would really be educating the students about people different than them.


Yeah and we can see how open THOSE people are towards Gay issues. "I'll take my kids out and home school them...." So it's a one way street. It doesn't work that way. Besides, why do we teach history? If we're white, say, that means we already know what we have experienced in the past? No, thus it's taught.


So if other people refuse to teach "diversity" that is an excuse to not teach "diversity" all the whole time crowing about diversity? That does not make a lot of sense.

The excuses sound like Bill Clinton's "I tried Marijuana but I didn't inhale." False. Dishonest. And, frankly, unbelievable.

I'd much more respect an honest answer of "so they support GLBT, deal with it" than this disingenuous nonsense about "diversity" and "tolerance."

If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "diversity" gay is already a thing there.
If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "tolerance" it is already tolerated.

Honestly it's about supporting something they already agree on and it's an echo chamber for their views and they don't want any dissention.

Honestly--which yearbook photo is more likely to be published at that school: a guy kissing his boyfriend at prom or a guy wearing an NRA hat?


And you know what, at 99% of the schools in this country, gays are WAY more persecuted, bullied, ostracized, than the other way around. Sorry, any other view is totally out there.

At any other school, especially outside of liberal areas, even the gays usually keep under the radar, including NOT going to prom with a guy or kissing a guy or god forbid, doing so in a yearbook picture.

And again, at a vast majority of the high schools across the country, both the studies AND culture are very hetero-normative, not the other way around. So why does it bother you that a school has it flipped around a bit (which I even doubt that. It's probably equalized now). Given everything I said is true about the majority of schools being "straight-privileged," what is it within you that is so bothered by a single class at some random high school that isn't?


So lack of diversity and prejudice at other schools justify it in this school. Got it. That's fine. Just be honest about it not really being about "diversity" and "tolerance."


But how do you know? From my experience of 25 years living in CA, California has ALWAYS been at the forefront of diversity education and diversity itself. CA and NY are the most diverse states in the union!

They teach a wide range of subjects, and I bet given the high-end nature of the school, it's a class-A education all around. Why do you assume it is some kind of dearth of information about various diverse things.

In my experience, liberal schools teach WAY more about a range of topics and cultures across the world. A conservative group will only want to teach about their culture and religion, whereas a progressive one will have kids studying history and religions from all over the world. These are just a few examples.

And if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW this is true about hyper conservatives.


Because liberal "diversity" is just as or even more narrow minded than so called "hyper conservatives." Heck we can see it in your own language and the labels you use. Those who scream about tolerance the most, tend to be the least tolerant just like those who complain about gays the most tend to have a bit of gay in them.


Then why do conservatives historically only want Christian education in schools? No Hindu or Buddhist? Why do conservatives often WAIL agains that shift away from a Euro-centric literature and history education, as it was in the past. Why is it the progressives who are the opposite.

On average.

But seriously, that is real in the education debates.


Why do liberals reject anything against global warming in schools? Gun classes/hunters safety classes? Free market economics? Reaganomics?

I'm not saying that some conservative are not against diversity--I'm just pointing out that many liberals also reject true diversity.


FIrst, it sounds like your conception of "diversity" is limited to false binary notions of liberal versus conservative in the US sense, and rural versus urban skills. Why would they teach gun safety in an urban city that has a low gun ownership rate and hunting rate? And why would THOSE be your primary issues for diversity. Those are small fry and inconsequential.

Dude, our entire country still teaches "free market economics." I just completed a graduate degree at one of the most liberal schools in the country, and my economics classes most definitely errored on the side of free market and Chicago-style economics.

And similarly, I'm sure these high schools, being public, are teaching those basics. Despite conservative propaganda, our country, textbooks, media, etc, by far extol capitalism and free market economics more than they do some kind of socialist or other system.

Reagonomics failed miserably bro. But even then, most schools don't teach that it did. You know why? Because our gov and school boards are owned by corporations and the military industrial complex, who wanted Reagan's pro-corporate deregulation.
edit on 23-6-2015 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 09:39 PM
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a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle. Why teach some of the things you listed in some places then? There are places where there just isn't a need or desire for them same as you claim there isn't a need or desire for gun safety in the urban setting.

You are making yourself sound just as narrow minded ... like someone who only wants the electives offered that you deem appropriate.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 09:43 PM
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originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: NavyDoc

No, it's about learning where you come from, those that came before you. The trailblazers and how they dealt with adversity. How things came to be the way they are now. Same thing with American History.


Exactly.

It's about learning a more complete history which INCLUDES notable LGBT people, most of whom were notable and historically relevant because of something else other than simply being LGBT.

It's about learning about people who were different in the same ways that they are who contributed to history or society in general which helps those kids feel proud of who they are despite their difference. It also gives them someone to admire and perhaps something to aspire to.

Those histories are out there, all this school decided to do was include rather than ignore or exclude it as is commonly done at the high school level.

I mean, I had no idea until fairly recently that the musical genius behind the music in the classic sci-fi film 2001 was a transsexual who started her life as Walter Carlos.

Mind blown. I wish I had been taught that in my high school, cause it was very lonely at times.

So, I don't see the negative here, I'm sorry.



edit on 23-6-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 09:53 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle. Why teach some of the things you listed in some places then? There are places where there just isn't a need or desire for them same as you claim there isn't a need or desire for gun safety in the urban setting.

You are making yourself sound just as narrow minded ... like someone who only wants the electives offered that you deem appropriate.



No, that's a strawman argument. At no point did I even address other electives. In fact, I explained quite clearly how as far as this kind of course goes, it is probably not available at the vast majority of high schools. So what is it that bothers you guys so much about it. I bet, for example, that there are more hunting classes available somewhere in the US, both in high schools, and outside, than LGBT-focused courses. So right there your argument dies.

So far the examples of what you guys deem to be your desired "diversity" and "electives" are Reaganomics, gun-classes, and free market economics... That's almost comical and a caricature of a conservative caricature. And, many of us on this thread already explained how western, pro-free market capitalistic economics are ALREADY promoted throughout our school systems, from high school to college. So your point falls flat again. There is no dearth of these topics in school..



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 09:57 PM
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originally posted by: Moresby
Did anyone bother to do any research about this school?

Because this is not some relaxed, playtime school.

This is a seriously college-prep high school with a focus on art and performance.

The students spend their mornings doing core curriculum, and then devote the balance of the day to intensive study of their chosen area of art, music or performance.

The students easily out perform all students in the district in both English and Math. The majority of students rated "advanced" in both areas.

Approximately 90% of the students attend college, and more than 30% of those finish some form of graduate school

These are smart, serious kids. They're not flakes.

If they want to take an elective course on the history of lawn ornaments, they've certainly earned it.

I doubt many in this thread could match these students academically.


That's what I was saying. This school appears to be a high-achieving, college and arts orientated school. They already have the basics down, such as core subjects.

So at that point, education becomes much more about broadening, increasing critical thinking, enlightening, creating engaged citizens, etc. Teaching courses about LGBT can be included in that. Probably a lot of ATS members need such a class, judging by their reactions lol.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 12:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Moresby
Did anyone bother to do any research about this school?

Because this is not some relaxed, playtime school.

This is a seriously college-prep high school with a focus on art and performance.

The students spend their mornings doing core curriculum, and then devote the balance of the day to intensive study of their chosen area of art, music or performance.

The students easily out perform all students in the district in both English and Math. The majority of students rated "advanced" in both areas.

Approximately 90% of the students attend college, and more than 30% of those finish some form of graduate school

These are smart, serious kids. They're not flakes.

If they want to take an elective course on the history of lawn ornaments, they've certainly earned it.

I doubt many in this thread could match these students academically.


That's what I was saying. This school appears to be a high-achieving, college and arts orientated school. They already have the basics down, such as core subjects.

So at that point, education becomes much more about broadening, increasing critical thinking, enlightening, creating engaged citizens, etc. Teaching courses about LGBT can be included in that. Probably a lot of ATS members need such a class, judging by their reactions lol.


You know, considering there are quite a few of us LGBT people on ATS, most of whom are articulate, coherent and have many of the same views on other ATS subjects as the general ATS member wouldn't a good idea be to actually have like a thread where basically we'd do like GLB and T 101?



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:38 AM
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a reply to: JadeStar

i've thought the same, i just don't know the correct approach without it being flooded by bigotry and ignorance



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:43 AM
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The LGBT has a long history in getting equality? Why should it not be studied? .



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:43 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

a reply to: Darth_Prime

I suggest that you both keep doing exactly what you're doing. Articulate, well thought out, and most importantly to my mind, passionate commentary.

Speaking strictly as a member, those are the sorts of posts that resonate most strongly with me.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:54 AM
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a reply to: seagull

Thank you


i never try to attack people, or degrade them and would hope to get the same respect, maybe i can't change peoples mind, but maybe we can help educate and show that we are humans also.. and share compassion and understanding.. love

Reading peoples reports on Gay Bisexual or Transgender or even a lesser studied Genderfluid is completely different than actually talking to those people(us)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 07:38 AM
link   

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Moresby
Did anyone bother to do any research about this school?

Because this is not some relaxed, playtime school.

This is a seriously college-prep high school with a focus on art and performance.

The students spend their mornings doing core curriculum, and then devote the balance of the day to intensive study of their chosen area of art, music or performance.

The students easily out perform all students in the district in both English and Math. The majority of students rated "advanced" in both areas.

Approximately 90% of the students attend college, and more than 30% of those finish some form of graduate school

These are smart, serious kids. They're not flakes.

If they want to take an elective course on the history of lawn ornaments, they've certainly earned it.

I doubt many in this thread could match these students academically.


That's what I was saying. This school appears to be a high-achieving, college and arts orientated school. They already have the basics down, such as core subjects.

So at that point, education becomes much more about broadening, increasing critical thinking, enlightening, creating engaged citizens, etc. Teaching courses about LGBT can be included in that. Probably a lot of ATS members need such a class, judging by their reactions lol.


You know, considering there are quite a few of us LGBT people on ATS, most of whom are articulate, coherent and have many of the same views on other ATS subjects as the general ATS member wouldn't a good idea be to actually have like a thread where basically we'd do like GLB and T 101?


Sure, it's an important area of conversation, especially considering many people not from that community still have a lot of misunderstandings or even fear.

Also, I feel that most people tone down their rhetoric and also eventually often change their heart towards a variety of historically marginalized groups when they actually talk to them and get to know them.

Probably, there are a lot more LGBT people on ATS than most members realize.
edit on 24-6-2015 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 07:49 AM
link   

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: seagull

Thank you


i never try to attack people, or degrade them and would hope to get the same respect, maybe i can't change peoples mind, but maybe we can help educate and show that we are humans also.. and share compassion and understanding.. love

Reading peoples reports on Gay Bisexual or Transgender or even a lesser studied Genderfluid is completely different than actually talking to those people(us)


True, there is no substitute for having meaningful interactions and relationships with LBGT people. But the next best thing is to study about them.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 08:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: seagull

Thank you


i never try to attack people, or degrade them and would hope to get the same respect, maybe i can't change peoples mind, but maybe we can help educate and show that we are humans also.. and share compassion and understanding.. love


Likewise. That has typically been my approach. You know, my mom and dad taught me that the only stupid question is the one not asked and we can perhaps change more people's minds about us by being open and honest where we are coming from. That's why I "came out" to ATS in that thread about trans kids. I was one of those kids not that long ago and felt i could add a much needed view from the inside of that difficult issue.



Reading peoples reports on Gay Bisexual or Transgender or even a lesser studied Genderfluid is completely different than actually talking to those people(us)


I completely agree! Especially when you bring up genderfluid (more on why later).

More generally...

I think there is a lot of value in an open thread where people who might hold bigoted or ignorant views but have at least an open enough mind to challenge those views by interacting with us in hopes of learning more and maybe even modifying their views.

It goes right to the core of the slogan Deny Ignorance.

But that's not just limited to the people who might hold extreme views regarding us. I think there is an even larger, more quiet majority who might have more moderate or even supportive views who might have had a question they were afraid or ashamed or embarrassed to ask.

And finally we ourselves might also be served by such a thread, not only to better understand the basis for certain views (like fear, etc) and address that in reasonable, rational way rather than it devolving into the sort of shouting matches and "US vs THEM" narrative MSM often pushes when they open such discussions for obvious reasons. I like to think we hold a higher standard at ATS so this could be a very good place to have the conversations which -don't- go on in the MSM or in general.

Oh and perhaps most surprisingly, we can also learn from each other as LGBTIQGF people!


Believe it or not, I had no idea what genderfluid was until reading about it here on ATS.


I mean like I heard the term before but it made me feel a little uncomfortable and I didn't want to offend the people I came across in real life by asking a question they could take the wrong way.

And I still have questions about that too!
I think a lot of non-LGBTIQFF people think that because we are all under that long umbrella of the alphabet we automatically understand each other. But that's a bit of a myth too. We might have common ground in terms of being different and understanding how it feels to be excluded or dealt with negatively as a result but like, just because I am a young transsexual woman doesn't mean I know alot about what it means to be gender fluid, or lesbian or a gay man. Or for that matter even someone who walked the same path as me but much later in life. So even among us there are bound to be moments of clarity were we could learn something we didn't know about each other.

Or maybe I'm just too idealistic and such a thread would eventually just crash down and stay mired into the same stuff we've all seen before here and elsewhere?

idk? but maybe it's worth a try?

If anyone is LGBTIQGFF and wants to do this then please do. However as one of the newer and younger members of ATS i don't think i'd be the right person to start it but I'd gladly participate and invite some of the other people i know on ATS who fall under that umbrella to participate.
edit on 24-6-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 08:10 AM
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originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If it was really about educating about different it would not be about a group that is already accepted. It'd be about gun ownership or Reaganomics--that would really be educating the students about people different than them.


Yeah and we can see how open THOSE people are towards Gay issues. "I'll take my kids out and home school them...." So it's a one way street. It doesn't work that way. Besides, why do we teach history? If we're white, say, that means we already know what we have experienced in the past? No, thus it's taught.


So if other people refuse to teach "diversity" that is an excuse to not teach "diversity" all the whole time crowing about diversity? That does not make a lot of sense.

The excuses sound like Bill Clinton's "I tried Marijuana but I didn't inhale." False. Dishonest. And, frankly, unbelievable.

I'd much more respect an honest answer of "so they support GLBT, deal with it" than this disingenuous nonsense about "diversity" and "tolerance."

If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "diversity" gay is already a thing there.
If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "tolerance" it is already tolerated.

Honestly it's about supporting something they already agree on and it's an echo chamber for their views and they don't want any dissention.

Honestly--which yearbook photo is more likely to be published at that school: a guy kissing his boyfriend at prom or a guy wearing an NRA hat?


And you know what, at 99% of the schools in this country, gays are WAY more persecuted, bullied, ostracized, than the other way around. Sorry, any other view is totally out there.

At any other school, especially outside of liberal areas, even the gays usually keep under the radar, including NOT going to prom with a guy or kissing a guy or god forbid, doing so in a yearbook picture.

And again, at a vast majority of the high schools across the country, both the studies AND culture are very hetero-normative, not the other way around. So why does it bother you that a school has it flipped around a bit (which I even doubt that. It's probably equalized now). Given everything I said is true about the majority of schools being "straight-privileged," what is it within you that is so bothered by a single class at some random high school that isn't?


So lack of diversity and prejudice at other schools justify it in this school. Got it. That's fine. Just be honest about it not really being about "diversity" and "tolerance."


But how do you know? From my experience of 25 years living in CA, California has ALWAYS been at the forefront of diversity education and diversity itself. CA and NY are the most diverse states in the union!

They teach a wide range of subjects, and I bet given the high-end nature of the school, it's a class-A education all around. Why do you assume it is some kind of dearth of information about various diverse things.

In my experience, liberal schools teach WAY more about a range of topics and cultures across the world. A conservative group will only want to teach about their culture and religion, whereas a progressive one will have kids studying history and religions from all over the world. These are just a few examples.

And if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW this is true about hyper conservatives.


Because liberal "diversity" is just as or even more narrow minded than so called "hyper conservatives." Heck we can see it in your own language and the labels you use. Those who scream about tolerance the most, tend to be the least tolerant just like those who complain about gays the most tend to have a bit of gay in them.


Then why do conservatives historically only want Christian education in schools? No Hindu or Buddhist? Why do conservatives often WAIL agains that shift away from a Euro-centric literature and history education, as it was in the past. Why is it the progressives who are the opposite.

On average.

But seriously, that is real in the education debates.


Why do liberals reject anything against global warming in schools? Gun classes/hunters safety classes? Free market economics? Reaganomics?

I'm not saying that some conservative are not against diversity--I'm just pointing out that many liberals also reject true diversity.


FIrst, it sounds like your conception of "diversity" is limited to false binary notions of liberal versus conservative in the US sense, and rural versus urban skills. Why would they teach gun safety in an urban city that has a low gun ownership rate and hunting rate? And why would THOSE be your primary issues for diversity. Those are small fry and inconsequential.

Dude, our entire country still teaches "free market economics." I just completed a graduate degree at one of the most liberal schools in the country, and my economics classes most definitely errored on the side of free market and Chicago-style economics.

And similarly, I'm sure these high schools, being public, are teaching those basics. Despite conservative propaganda, our country, textbooks, media, etc, by far extol capitalism and free market economics more than they do some kind of socialist or other system.

Reagonomics failed miserably bro. But even then, most schools don't teach that it did. You know why? Because our gov and school boards are owned by corporations and the military industrial complex, who wanted Reagan's pro-corporate deregulation.


You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body. In a gay friendly performing arts school in San Francisco, a class on GLBT issues is hardly outside their experience or comfort zone.

Be honest--say they are having the class to help them feel good about themselves.
edit on 24-6-2015 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)




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