Nikki Haley To Call For Confederate Flag To Be Removed From South Carolina Capitol: Reports

If the southerners want to be proud of something look for in your history the many good things you did and put that at the forefront of your history and we’d be glad and proud with you as Americans


Not a symbol of the degradation of a people


There are I'm sure thousands of southerners who were kind to slaves and aided them in their escape or who treated them humanely


My greatest American in History is the great John Brown

A WHITE MAN who was more pro slave freedom than Fredrick Douglas!

Be proud of him

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Claiming otherwise is like claiming it's unfair to suggest that rap fans like rap music.

Ahhhhhhh... but what would you say if someone made the connection between rap music listeners and crime? Rap music isn't so much a symbol of crime and violence as it is a narrative glorifying crime and violence. Should it be eradicated, too?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I'll continue to take the same stance as I have for my entire adult life and flat out refuse to care who takes offense over what, and keep on keeping on. The Gadsden and the Rebel flags will continue to hold their place in my heart, on my back, and on my bumper stickers.

And you'll continue to wonder why you weren't invited to the BBQ, why the cashier didn't smile back, why the cops pull you over for the third time that month...
They hold a place in your heart? Why?

I really don't understand this tribal mentality, especially when those wanting to be "in the tribe" know that it's a symbol of hate and ignorance to millions of other people.

I won't even wear a clothing brand on display.

It baffles me why people would deliberately associate themselves to something that's so deliberately divisive. The imagined "benefits" don't even come close to the negative connotations. One in ten might appreciate seeing it on your person and have a positive thought, but more will look at that and have a negative one.

Why would anyone want that?

To be honest, I don't think it has much to do with this misplaced sense of pride or belonging, it's more to do with anger. What a horrid way to waste your limited existence on this planet.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Claiming otherwise is like claiming it's unfair to suggest that rap fans like rap music.

Ahhhhhhh... but what would you say if someone made the connection between rap music listeners and crime? Rap music isn't so much a symbol of crime and violence as it is a narrative glorifying crime and violence. Should it be eradicated, too?

Eradicated?
No, I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting that a historical image be "eradicated".

Should an elected official walk into congress with a 10 inch gold dollar symbol around their neck, a hooker on each arm and a fur coat over their shoulder?

Mine was a comment in response to the suggestion that this symbol can be entirely disconnected from the way it is perceived. Obviously it's a fallacy. It's impossible to do that because it is used by so many to represent EXACTLY what people believe it represents.

There is a perception that rap music reinforces or perpetuates a violent culture. Whether I personally think it CAUSES violence or not is irrelevant. There is no denying that imagery in rap music does reinforce the perception that the music and violence go hand in hand.

When it comes down to it, regardless of what you or I believe is the truth with regard to this flag, no one can possibly deny that it has direct and meaningful connections to slavery, bigotry, ignorance and hatred of others. People can complain that this is unfair or misunderstood all they like, there is no getting away from the reality of that connection.

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: Drest

originally posted by: alphastrike101
I really do not understand why they would want to fly a flag of losers.

The Confederates got their a$$ kicked and bad.
They had an outdated ideology then.

You must have skipped history class or something. Because if you'd actually studied that war, you would know that for the first two years the South actually had the U.S. on the run.... they had them scared sh*tless for a while. The CSA generals were pretty much superior in every way. The only thing the North had was industry, but their leadership was tactically incompetent for the most part.

What little that matters when, indeed, per capita the southerners lost twice as many men as the Union, coupled with the devastation they were subjected too. Considering the confederation was more or less reduced to a third world country, while the north boomed and prospered in the wake of the Civil war, I would say the south was defeated rather thoroughly
I can think of no better word than a$$-kicking.

Sounds like you're just rationalizing things to fit an agenda. The CSA was heavily outnumbered in most of their famous victories.

Take a look at Chancelorsville, that's just embarrassing.....

en.m.wikipedia.org...

More major CSA victories, all of them at a numerical disadvantage:

en.m.wikipedia.org...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

en.m.wikipedia.org...'s_Crossroads

en.m.wikipedia.org...


Conversely, almost every major Union victory was achieved with an advantage in numbers. Sounds like the Union troops lacked motivation, or maybe they just weren't as good at fighting.

A$$ kicking, indeed.....

If that's your idea of an a$$ kicking, I wouldn't be surprised to know you're one of those clowns who thinks the U.S. "kicked a$$" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Eradicated?
No, I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting that a historical image be "eradicated".

Really? Then I presume you've not seen this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

My point is this; I cannot control the perceptions of others, nor can you. Given that, and given that it is pointless to sweat over that which you cannot control, I really can't say that I care who perceives the flag as representing what.

a reply to: Rocker2013

I still dont understand the sick obsession some southeners have with their failed rebellion, I mean they lost, find somthing else to obsess over because the south will NEVER "rise again!"

Not only did they lose but they were defeated to the point that areas in the south took nearly half a century to recover. 1 in 5 military age male adults down there were killed. They were comprehensively defeated by most every metric. Given the ass kicking they received that flag is that of shame and defeat.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: eriktheawful


Btw I wouldn’t ban the flag. Just remove any and all governmental association with it to any degree.

Again: The flag in question is flying on a flag pole that is a war memorial.

It is not flying on or over a government building.

It's a memorial that is in front of the building.

Would it bother you so much if the memorial was located somewhere else?

a reply to: Drest

Although the south had great tactical officers they were strategically beat. Thus they still got their asses beat. Why? Because ultimately all those dead was entirely for NOTHING. The entire southern struggle was totally futile.
I suppose it depends on your definition of "getting your ass kicked." One could say that Sherman's March to the Sea (let alone being able to do it virtually unopposed*) is proof enough that the Confederates, by late 1864-1865, were getting their asses kicked quite thoroughly. Other people might consider the Reconstruction period to be demonstrative of the level of ass-kicking delivered.

The whole campaign in the West was an almost unbroken string of Confederate disasters.

Just a recap
1 in 5 southern military men dead. Southern rebuilding taking nearly half a century post war.

While the north seen economic gains as well as little to no reconstruction being needed.

If nothing else to the victors go the spoils.. and bragging rights.

We won, you lost badly, get over it.

originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: Rocker2013

I still dont understand the sick obsession some southeners have with their failed rebellion, I mean they lost, find somthing else to obsess over because the south will NEVER "rise again!"

Not only did they lose but they were defeated to the point that areas in the south took nearly half a century to recover. 1 in 5 military age male adults down there were killed. They were comprehensively defeated by most every metric. Given the ass kicking they received that flag is that of shame and defeat.

Sounds like you are the one with an obsession. Even though I'm not from the U.S., I am here on business very often, and IMO the southerners are the best Americans, the rest of you have never really impressed me the same way.

Your mentality seems almost child-like. How old are you anyway? Like really, "We won you lost" is the way little children speak. There is no "we" and "you" because there is only one America.

Most of them, like 95%, never think or speak about the Civil War, it's simply not something that's on their minds.

You however, seem to have a serious complex towards those people. I did notice that southern U.S. men were typically a lot cooler and "manly", so maybe that's where your complex comes from.

Face it, any Confederats soldier from that time would make you look like a female or little boy by comparison, all you can do is talk trash over the Internet, while their souls are where warriors go.

Repsect to the south from a Swede/German.

The U.S.A will have it's night of reckoning. You can't build a country on such sheer hypocrisy. At least the southern secessionists were straightforward with their evils, the U.S.A masks them with pretty words and deceptions.

You talk about "slavery" and yet you live on the labor of third world economic enslavement to provide all your petty amenities.

You talk about "kicking ass" when you can't even subjugate some goat-herding Afghani's who are defending their small village with AK-47s. You failed in Vietnam, Iraq, and Korea, and have never won a war on your own. Even with your superior technology you lose over and over again.

You talk about "human rights" and yet your government starts coups and proxy wars, destabilizing entire regions and leading to the death of thousands if not millions. Your government-backed corporations exploit the developing world to avoid safety regulations.

You talk about "democracy", and yet everywhere in the Middle-East you went, you left behind radical Islamic fascist groups.

You talk about "freedom" and yet your government targets its own citizens and implements 1984-like tactics. Also, your "freedom" only seems to apply to people living in the US, all other people around the world could burn for all you care.

Don't get me wrong, I love many Americans I've met, but this kind of hypocrisy cannot stand for long. That's why I laugh at all this pitiful self-righteousness and armchair activism.

Anyway, that's my take, I'm out of this thread.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: kosmicjack

Actually the North fired the first shots but I agree with all of your other ssentiments. The flag should not fly over any government buildings, local or state.

No, the first shot was a 10 inch mortar fired at 4:30 A.M. on the morning of April 12, 1861 by one Captain James, under the command of Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard and it exploded approximately 100 feet above Ft. Sumter.

Yup the southern general disobeyed orders by firing if I remember right, but your point still holds.

If the Confederate flag can be hoist above government buildings, so too should the Nazi flag and swastika or the Islamic State flag permitted to be flown anywhere one chooses.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) will call for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state capitol, multiple outlets reported Monday.

Haley is set to speak at a press conference at 4 p.m. ET Monday. According to CNN and AP, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) will join the governor and call for the flag to be placed in a museum.

Graham previously said the flag "is part of who we are," but that he would be "fine" with taking the symbol down.

Nikki Haley To Call For Confederate Flag To Be Removed From South Carolina Capitol: Reports

Looks like South Carolina is starting to relent to pressure on the flag. Both the governor and Senator Linsey Graham are now calling for the removal of the flag from the capitol building. Good move I say. A state government shouldn't be promoting a flag that at the very least represents a time of massive division in the country and at the most is a symbol of racism.

I have no problem with individual or private entities flying the flag (that is their prerogative), but it shouldn't be on any government buildings. It's almost like an "eff you" to the federal government by flying it.

You know what the funny part is? That "eff you" to the federal government is one of the, if not the most pertinent points of flying it in the first place. The Confederate Battle flag is more a symbol of Southern pride and a "rebellious" attitude than one of racism. The flag wasnt designed to say "hey, we hate black people" it was designed to show a rebellious, self sufficient attitude. The South didn't need the North and they sure as hell wouldn't be listening to some Yankee telling them what they should and should not be doing. I don't condone slavery and would not personally support the Confederations flag,but that's not what the battle flag is about.

originally posted by: Drest
The U.S.A will have it's night of reckoning. You can't build a country on such sheer hypocrisy. At least the southern secessionists were straightforward with their evils, the U.S.A masks them with pretty words and deceptions.

You talk about "slavery" and yet you live on the labor of third world economic enslavement to provide all your petty amenities.

You talk about "kicking ass" when you can't even subjugate some goat-herding Afghani's who are defending their small village with AK-47s. You failed in Vietnam, Iraq, and Korea, and have never won a war on your own. Even with your superior technology you lose over and over again.

You talk about "human rights" and yet your government starts coups and proxy wars, destabilizing entire regions and leading to the death of thousands if not millions. Your government-backed corporations exploit the developing world to avoid safety regulations.

You talk about "democracy", and yet everywhere in the Middle-East you went, you left behind radical Islamic fascist groups.

You talk about "freedom" and yet your government targets its own citizens and implements 1984-like tactics. Also, your "freedom" only seems to apply to people living in the US, all other people around the world could burn for all you care.

Don't get me wrong, I love many Americans I've met, but this kind of hypocrisy cannot stand for long. That's why I laugh at all this pitiful self-righteousness and armchair activism.

Anyway, that's my take, I'm out of this thread.

Might I ask what country you hail from? I'd be glad to point out every blemish and less than savoryactioon commited under your flag. Or are you to cowardly to come forth?

originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: Drest

Although the south had great tactical officers they were strategically beat. Thus they still got their asses beat. Why? Because ultimately all those dead was entirely for NOTHING. The entire southern struggle was totally futile.
I suppose it depends on your definition of "getting your ass kicked." One could say that Sherman's March to the Sea (let alone being able to do it virtually unopposed*) is proof enough that the Confederates, by late 1864-1865, were getting their asses kicked quite thoroughly. Other people might consider the Reconstruction period to be demonstrative of the level of ass-kicking delivered.

The whole campaign in the West was an almost unbroken string of Confederate disasters.

Just a recap
1 in 5 southern military men dead. Southern rebuilding taking nearly half a century post war.

While the north seen economic gains as well as little to no reconstruction being needed.

If nothing else to the victors go the spoils.. and bragging rights.

We won, you lost badly, get over it.

Maybe you missed the part where the Union took over 150,000 more dead thanthew Confederacy despite almost twice the military strength.

a reply to: beezzer

My biggest gripe is letting that little asshole have so much influence.

a reply to: seasoul

For a moment take slavery out of the equation, for in fact only a small percentage of wealthy Northerners and Southerners actually promoted and/or profited from this unjust institution.

Bull Feces. Slavery was the SOLE driver of the Southern Economy - the cotton and tobacco industries ran by the sweat of slavery. And northern industries craved those commodities produced by southern slaves.

Your assertion that slavery didn't mean much to anyone is revolting and insulting the intelligence of anyone who calls themselves a member of the human race.

Every one of the States that seceded, every single one of them, cited as the reason of their secession the issue of slavery - look it up - the statements they produced to justify their traitorous rebellion are online - Google is your friend.

And they took this treasonous route in spite of decades long and absolute control of Congress by Southern delegations hell bent on protecting slavery to the point of essentially declaring the entire Bill of Rights null and void ( freedom of speech, of assembly, of religion - all were banned) and a captive Supreme Court didn't blink an eye.

The following essay represents a perspective that many people in the world today who are struggling against tyranny can respect about the Confederate Battle Flag and the Americans who died defending it.

I repeat. Bull Feces.

Very few people died defending that flag. It is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The only people who did defending it were members of that Army. Period.

Displaying that flag at the South Carolina Capitol Building is explicit acknowledgment that the Army of Northern Virginia is in military occupation of the State of South Carolina. Why aren't the South Carolinian 'states rights' shouters up in arms about that? All you 'sov-cits' muttering inchoherently about a decoritive fringe on the US flag - why aren't you screaming about this very real symbol of Virginia's military agression against South Carolina, and indeed all of its Southern neighbors?

Name one other failed rebellion in the history of mankind that ever got to keep the symbols of their treason to rub in to the faces of the victors. Yes, Virginians died defending their battle flag. South Carolinians died defending theirs, Tennesseans died defending theirs. And they were traitors in open rebellion against their country - and they LOST.

Northerners died too. Scott Walker should note that Wisconsin's sons died putting down the rebellion that that ugly flag has come to represent. Michiganders. Men from New Jersey and New York. Vermont. Maine. Pennsylvania. Ohio. They died putting down a rebellion by traitors.

That is the heritage that 'some' people want to celebrate - a heritage of rebellion and treason, inhumanity and opposition to civilized well being. The heritage that you are defending.

You have no shame sir. The diseased ideology that divided the nation 150 years ago still divides the nation today thanks to wretched losers like you. It is time that you accept the fact that the war was lost by you 150 years ago because the winners will not abandon the field of battle to the losers 150 years after 'our' predecessors died to defeat that diseased ideology.

I reject your immoral "celebration" of Treason. The flag must come down.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Slavery cannot be extricated from the racism issue. Slavery is the genesis of racism.

In fact, you actually got that exactly right. Ideological attacks on the instution of slavery prompted the slavery 'parties' to invent racism and "invent" is exactly the right word.

Racism as an ideology was created purposely and specifically to justify slavery at a time when the abolitionist movement was 'threatening' to gain the upper hand.

People with interests in the slave economy came up with it whole hog, finding psuedo-religious and psuedo-scientific reasoning to 'prove' that Europeans were superior to the black races and 'natural law' dictated that they should be in a place of mastery over them.

Man, this is proving to be one tedious distraction.

Has the Civil War started yet or does someone need to get shot over an old flag to really get that going?