Lets discuss water baptism..

Originally posted by: DISRAELI

When we are "baptised INTO Christ", we become part of him, and on THAT basis share in his death and resurrection, as described in the following verses.
The action of immersion baptism expresses that belief;

This too is a residual expression of the Pagan ritual of sharing in the death of a loved one by being baptized at their funeral and/or memorial. People found it comforting to die and "be reborn" with their loved ones.

Paul reiterates that fact:

1 Corinthians 15:29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

a reply to: windword
Then at least you seem to agree with me that Paul in Romans is talking about immersion baptism; the acting out of the identification.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If I might interject an interpretation to the "fire" you're talking about in context with Matthew 3:4-12. Notice what John was doing, and who he was talking to in these verses. It seems fairly obvious that the fire John was talking about was revelation and conviction of sin. So the baptism of fire was Christ's ability to open the hearts of stone, and give them revelation of their sinful nature, leading to genuine repentance. Take that as you will, but the context seems self evident to me.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: windword
Then at least you seem to agree with me that Paul in Romans is talking about immersion baptism; the acting out of the identification.

Of course!

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: DISRAELI

Acts 19 states that Paul baptized people in Jesus' name who had already had John's baptism. I think this points toward John's baptism being different than Jesus', and even John said Jesus would baptize with fire. If you are baptized in Jesus' name you are baptized with fire not water.

Here is a link that proves that water baptism is not a requirement for the Holy Spirit, according to the scriptures.

carm.org...

Almost all modern Christians have been baptized only into the NAME JESUS. Because the doctrine of fallen sinners prevents them from accepting the path to perfection.

To except the Holy Spirit one must believe that they can overcome sin through him.

Modern Christianity teaches that it is impossible to follow the Holy Spirit. Christ said "be like me". The fallen are not like the risen.

a reply to: Klassified

I agree that is the Christian interpretation, but as you know, I find the Christian interpretations lack a base in reality. There is an underlying message to these allegories that is based in very natural functions and phenomena, I'm trying to find these meanings using real-world examples.

It is an outward, symbolic representation of one's inner being and the process that has taken place there.

Since we also know that it is said that where two or three believers gather, it is a church. Then why do we think it much be required for one to be dunked in water before an entire congregation in order to become a believer and receive the Holy Spirit?

a reply to: ketsuko
The definition of a sacrament in the Anglican catechism is "the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace".

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ketsuko
The definition of a sacrament in the Anglican catechism is "the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace".

The question is whether the sacrament is a requirement to receive the Holy Spirit or if you receive the Holy Spirit and the sacrament is used to show your changed/reborn life.

I believe it's the latter, but many think it's the former.

a reply to: ketsuko

I was always taught that the "receiving of the Holy Spirit" is supposed to be the baptism by fire.

Acts 2:4
And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

a reply to: ketsuko
I would agree with you and take it to be the latter, which is the pattern found in Acts.
I'm sure this is what Cranmer really meant himself.

a reply to: onequestion

I think I would disagree with what you call a Biblical perspective on water baptism. I believe that water baptism is merely a typification of what occurs at the moment of salvation. The Bible talks about water baptism and spiritual baptism. In my opinion, the saving Baptism occurs when a person accepts Christ and its done by Christ with holy fire.(We can go over the scriptures if you want). Water Baptism is public representation of the private decision you made.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: onequestion

I think I would disagree with what you call a Biblical perspective on water baptism. I believe that water baptism is merely a typification of what occurs at the moment of salvation. The Bible talks about water baptism and spiritual baptism. In my opinion, the saving Baptism occurs when a person accepts Christ and its done by Christ with holy fire.(We can go over the scriptures if you want). Water Baptism is public representation of the private decision you made.

This is exactly how I see it. That was well put and simple, thank you.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Yea, so many people see the word Baptism and immediately relate it to water without reading other areas of the Bible. Most people don't understand that a lot of the "rituals" done in the Church are meant to serve as physical symbols of spiritual changes and ideas. Many of the levitical laws are this way. For example circumcision, is meant to represent a circumcision of the heart. The animals sacrificed in the OT always symbolize the Messiah.(There may be some exceptions but I can't think of any) The Passover Lamb is the easiest to see imo. I mean Jesus died during this Day, its so obvious lol. Actually every feast day symbolizes something about Christ.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

SOME Christians make water baptism as a requirement of being born again. SOME Christians say that water baptism must be immediate.

When saying Christian theology, please point out which Christians believe which things, because we are a multiplicity of interpretations.

Interesting and fun topic. Thank you for posting.

From a Gnostic perspective (which I believe does not fit into the traditional context of Christianity,) I have come to understand the concept of baptism as a symbolical representation of each mind (or individual aspect of the Whole) being raised to the realization of being God (or the Whole) but we retain our individuality despite this deep knowing and/or new awareness while still being human.

We are each baptized at birth through a body of water and then once again upon death/resurrection (decent of the dove) when we shed our avatar and/or rise out of this body of water to once again remember our true self. Those who have remembered (come to this realization of being the God-Head, yet experiencing itself as if its not) before death, have been baptized on Earth.

When a body weighing up to 300 lbs is cremated, the amount of ash which remains weighs no more than 5 lbs and could be stored in a Campbell's soup can.

Q: So where did the rest of the pounds go?

A: It evaporated, because our body is (90%) all water.

I personally believe that we all become truly baptized upon death of the human consciousness and pass on. If one cannot enter into the kingdom of God (realization/divine gnosis) while they are born of water (still in human form) and the Spirit (always God), then they must emerge (be born out of/death of flesh) the water in which they, as Spirit (God), first entered.

True Baptism, to me, implies complete immersion (basking in the blissful Void of all that is). It is said that when Jesus rose out of the water -- the heavens opened (mind), and the (upper spiritual consciousness/God-Self) Spirit, in the form of a dove, descended upon him.

...the drop returns to its source - the ocean.

Baptism.