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Killing Them Softly

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posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 05:24 PM
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Allowing others to decide whether a person lives or not is a good debate, but I personally believe that individuals should be able to decide whether they are done with this World or not. ~$heopleNation




posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 05:36 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar

Hey I'm sure there's some hospices that do it the right way, but what I've heard are nothing but horror stories wrapped up and packaged as "care" and "dignity". People are free to choose what they think is best for their loved ones (unless they're not and the government/healthcare decides for them). I'm not stopping anybody. Just think at the least we need to take out the junk hospices, and give people more options. My paps already told me long ago if he had little quality of life left... if he was already essentially gone to let him keep his dignity and pull the plug already. I get it, and maybe some people do, and some people don't. All good.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 06:26 PM
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a reply to: ladyinwaiting


so they let nature take it's course. It was time, and to force him to continue to live under those restrictive circumstances (his body) was not fair.

I'm all for that. Trouble is, in the modern world, we are supposed to extend life as much as possible.

If someone is deathly ill, who's not going to call 911? When they arrive, they aren't going to say, its not worth it. Upon arrival at the hospital they do their best to stabilize or resuscitate.

In light of acceptable practices, nature doesn't enter into it.

Just by the by, I agree with you.

But I'm not a doctor, or a medic or someone that doesn't call 911. I don't really want to have to explain that my mom refused me to do that so I had to watch her die.

When my mom had her stroke, she didn't want me calling 911 until a nurse on a hot line convinced her it was okay.

This is critical time that could alleviate certain kinds of strokes or prevent worse ones. She is on a non resuscitate order as well.

They still won't let her die.

Shes miserable too some times, saying she wants to die. But they say thats depression.

Interesting life lessons. I sort of watch it all impassionately, its out of my hands.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 06:47 PM
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I lost both my parents last year. Cause of death, morphine overdose by hospice.

My Mom was begging for water. If it weren't for us, she never would have got any. How does a nurse live with themselves, refusing water to a begging patient?

Dad had congestive heart failure, so they promised morphine would make him breathe easier. It depressed his breathing, and he died. He wasn't in any pain. He didn't need morphine. Yet they brought it to him like clockwork.

You don't need hospice to allow people to die and with dignity and pain-free. Hospices are solely used to hasten the death process by morphine overdose and dehydration.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 07:21 PM
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originally posted by: CharlieAtTheGap
I lost both my parents last year. Cause of death, morphine overdose by hospice.

My Mom was begging for water. If it weren't for us, she never would have got any. How does a nurse live with themselves, refusing water to a begging patient?

Dad had congestive heart failure, so they promised morphine would make him breathe easier. It depressed his breathing, and he died. He wasn't in any pain. He didn't need morphine. Yet they brought it to him like clockwork.

You don't need hospice to allow people to die and with dignity and pain-free. Hospices are solely used to hasten the death process by morphine overdose and dehydration.







This is one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation. People send their relatives to Hospice, and they might not be aware of these kinds of events. I actually had to study what Hospice is in a course at a University, but the gravity, the reality of it didn't hit me until I had someone there.

Although all the ones I've experienced or read about give morphine injections much more frequently than the admit, and while ALL do not withhold fluids, most of them do. If anybody can explain why to me, I would like to know, other than to hasten death.

We need to be aware of this before we agree to go or let our loved ones go. Of course, we have to look at the other side as well, and try to make the best decision.

Do you mind if I ask............ do you regret the decision to permit them to go, or would you make the same decision?
(I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but I think your thoughts on this are important to those of us who might need to face this ourselves some day.)

So sorry for the lost of your parents. My Best.
liw



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: intrptr


This is critical time that could alleviate certain kinds of strokes or prevent worse ones. She is on a non resuscitate order as well.

They still won't let her die.

Shes miserable too some times, saying she wants to die. But they say thats depression.


Intrptr, do you mind if I ask your mother's age?

I think you will have to rely on what the physician's tell you. Stroke patients FREQUENTLY experience depression following a stroke, usually due to the loss of a previously functioning area. I would let them treat the depression.
Additionally she has an End of Life Directive, and the doctor's and all medical staff will have to abide by what it says. Plus, you know, people can regain functioning following a stroke through various therapies -- physical, speech, whatever. Some people can take up to a year to get better, but they DO get better!



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 08:00 PM
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My father passed in a VA hospice. He had anaplastic thyroid cancer. The kind that once you detect it is pretty much too late. I remember helping him do springtime pruning in April and by August he was in the ground.

What struck me the most was that on the entire floor there was only one other patient who had visitors outside of staff and that has scarred me a bit experiencing the loneliness that those patients must have felt. My mother, sister and niece practically moved into the room and stayed with my father for just over a week.

The staff was wonderful but I have and do wonder if that was a function of having three generations of women constantly on watch, though I have to say I am also a vet who uses that same VA and over the years I have had no real complaints. It is a good VA in my eyes.

I guess the moral to not forget is that if you have a loved one in hospice... rally everyone to visit or stay. It may affect how staff treats your loved one.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 08:37 PM
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a reply to: Terminal1


The staff was wonderful but I have and do wonder if that was a function of having three generations of women constantly on watch,


I don't think there is any question that medical staff perform better when there is family present. It's human nature I guess, wish it weren't that way, but I've seen it too many times.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 08:39 PM
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originally posted by: ladyinwaiting


This is one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation. People send their relatives to Hospice, and they might not be aware of these kinds of events. I actually had to study what Hospice is in a course at a University, but the gravity, the reality of it didn't hit me until I had someone there.


I totally understand and appreciate your concerns but the problem I am seeing here is that a lot of people are painting Hospice in a very, very broad brush stroke as if it's run by some heinous central hierarchy when that simply isn't the case. Each state has their own laws and DOH regulations, each program runs a little differently and they are all governed by their own board of directors made up of Physicians, RN's, Nurse Practitioners etc...and the physicians who work for the Hospice programs all have their own approaches so I find it a little unfair to see such drastically over generalized depictions of varying hospice programs as if they are all operating under the exact same guidelines. It would be equally unfair for me to assert that everyone is wrong or bonkers because their own experiences with Hospice are so drastically different than what I have seen first as well as second hand. Personally, I would recommend Hospice in a heartbeat over any sort of long term inpatient program at a hospital.

I don't know where anyone else lives or how the hospice programs are run in your locales and please forgive me for treading very, very lightly here but I don't want to get anywhere near territory where I may infringe on HIPPA violations. My wife is an RN-MSN and a hospice case manager and the types of things I have been reading about would result in RN's losing their license and state medical boards coming after the physicians in charge with undue wrath so I honestly can not fathom how some of these things are occurring at all let alone continuing if that is the case. Where she works, they have to have a diagnosis that will result in expiration and they aren't admitting anyone just to kill them off and save medicaid/medicare a dime.

We're talking everyone from 97 yr old patients with congestive heart failure to 32 year old moms of 3 to an 18 year old girls who just wanted to get married before she passed away( My wife got an insane amount of donations in place, planned the whole wedding, took this girl shopping for a dress that was donated, took care of the flowers, the reception...everything. Her husband is my hero for what he went through because what was supposed to be a small private affair turned into a media circus where the girls mother ended up acting like a Kardashian but that's story for another threads!) to guys my age with ALS who were given a diagnosis of 2-4 years and went downhill so fast they barely made it 3 months. She has had patients who were on Hospice for over a year, some for more than 2, some for barely 48 hours because the patient or family was in denial and waited too long to try to get into the program.

There were even a couple of recent cases who were actually removed from Hospice and referred back to their GP because their terminal illnesses simply were not progressing and they were getting better. Patients need to be evaluated regularly to see if their illnesses are progressing or improving and they need to be 'recertified' on a pretty regular schedule. Nobody is saving a penny when they have round the clock aides and an RN driving out to their house to check on them regularly and making sure they have the proper amount of medications available!


Although all the ones I've experienced or read about give morphine injections much more frequently than the admit, and while ALL do not withhold fluids, most of them do. If anybody can explain why to me, I would like to know, other than to hasten death.


Do you have any citations for this occurring? I don't doubt that shady things happen sometimes, I just have trouble believing it's such a regular occurrence. Again, this is based solely on my own experiences but that doesn't mean that I'm unaware of how scummy humans tend to be when it benefits themselves in some way. Where we live, it is illegal to withhold fluids from a patient and the entire team would be suspended and brought before a review board. As for morphine injections, I can't really comment on that because here, there are no injections given therefore it is the patient or their family or assigned caregiver who is responsible for administering morphine. When I say no injections, there is nothing injected IM or IV or SC. All morphine is in a liquid form that is given orally and is absorbed through the lining of the mouth/cheeks/throat. This is because an RN must be present at all times to give that type of treatment wereas designated caregivers can dispense oral medications. It is far more likely that a combination of medications are available such as a patch containing Fentanyl or Dilaudid for long term pain management with liquid morphine for severe breakthrough pain and oral pills for moderate breakthrough pain along with Ativan to calm them down sometimes because lets be honest... if you know you're dying, you're going to have some pretty serious anxiety in some cases! Anything occurring as you describe, with IV or IM injections being given off schedule is a huge no no and rather illegal and almost always a violation of written orders by the Physician. Nurses doing so without at least verbal consent over the phone and on a case by case basis should have their licenses pulled.


We need to be aware of this before we agree to go or let our loved ones go. Of course, we have to look at the other side as well, and try to make the best decision.

I completely concur here. Sometimes we simply can't believe or fathom that when we entrust our loved ones into someone else's care, that they will violate our trust as well as their medical mandate. We want to do the right thing SO badly that it just doesn't cross our minds that those in the medical profession and especially those practicing in Hospice, will not be going above and beyond. Otherwise why would they be doing that type of work right? The impression I get though is that you are referring to an in-patient type of set up as opposed to what I am referring to where you get to pass away with some dignity at home. I would not and will never go into a facility of that nature. I would rather go back to the VA then put myself in that position and I would have to already be dead before I go back to the VA



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Yes thank you, I am aware of all that. You sound like the doctors…

My mom is close to 80. She is an adult child, always miserable and demanding anyway. Now with the stroke, its effects and the multi visits to doctors, hospitals and all for tests, procedures, recovery, meds, more tests, procedures, endless problem for someone with a narrow comfort zone.

Don't fret, I am good at a taking care of her, am aware of all the risks and requirements for her. I can tell you are educated about it too. Thanks for the advice, it mirrors what we are going through.

Been a hella adventure for the last 5 months.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar


I am seeing here is that a lot of people are painting Hospice in a very, very broad brush stroke as if it's run by some heinous central hierarchy when that simply isn't the case


I seem to have missed all the vilification of Hospice. The OP gives positives and negatives, and other posters have been sincere with their thoughts and opinions, which is what I wanted.

Each state has their own laws and DOH regulations, each program runs a little differently and they are all governed by their own board of directors made up of Physicians, RN's, Nurse Practitioners etc...and the physicians who work for the Hospice programs all have their own approaches so I find it a little unfair to see such drastically over generalized depictions of varying hospice programs as if they are all operating under the exact same guidelines. It would be equally unfair for me to assert that everyone is wrong or bonkers because their own experiences with Hospice are so drastically different than what I have seen first as well as second hand. Personally, I would recommend Hospice in a heartbeat over any sort of long term inpatient program at a hospital.


Throughout the OP and the thread I have repeatedly commented " All Hospices are NOT Created Equally And that includes YOUR experiences/knowledge about them. See? You make these comments at the beginning of your post, but then quickly follow up with information based on what YOUR hospice experience shows. That information is true for you, but not for ME and not for other posters.


My wife is an RN-MSN and a hospice case manager and the types of things I have been reading about would result in RN's losing their license and state medical boards coming after the physicians in charge with undue wrath so I honestly can not fathom how some of these things are occurring at all let alone continuing if that is the case. Where she works, they have to have a diagnosis that will result in expiration and they aren't admitting anyone just to kill them off and save medicaid/medicare a dime


Nobody has said they are admitting people just to kill them off. Did you read the OP? There is always an admission criteria which has to be signed by a physician, or sometimes a team of medical staff. The life expectancy criteria varies, sometimes it's three weeks, or it can sometimes go as high as six months.


There were even a couple of recent cases who were actually removed from Hospice and referred back to their GP because their terminal illnesses simply were not progressing and they were getting better


Yes, I am aware that happens also.


Do you have any citations for this occurring? I don't doubt that shady things happen sometimes, I just have trouble believing it's such a regular occurrence


The above referenced withholding fluids, and you also asked for links. Here's the deal. If your wife works for an agency that feeds and hydrates through IV means, then it is the exception. I have read there are a FEW who do, but the majority does not. As long as a patient can eat/drink on their own, or with a family members assistance, it's fine. But staff will not assist, and have signed documents at the time of employment stating they will NOT assist. They are not administered IV hydration in the home setting, or in the facility setting. As far as links --- family members can talk about this better than me. You can actually find a huge selection of hospice facilities, their criteria, what they do and not do, available right at your fingertips. There is also a poster on this thread who said his loved one died from dehydration and morphine.

I'm sorry you are horrified and incredulous, but it's nonetheless the truth.


. Where we live, it is illegal to withhold fluids from a patient and the entire team would be suspended and brought before a review board. As for morphine injections, I can't really comment on that because here, there are no injections given therefore it is the patient or their family or assigned caregiver who is responsible for administering morphine


Again, it is not illegal in most hospices to withhold IV fluids. As far as morphine, you are only familiar with the liquid form, because you only have "in-home" services who use liquid forms to drop in the mouth. It is also dropped in the mouth of the unconscious. Injections are typically given in the in-care facilities.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 09:30 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar


Anything occurring as you describe, with IV or IM injections being given off schedule is a huge no no and rather illegal and almost always a violation of written orders by the Physician.


Not when the prescription for the morphine/Ativan cocktail is written PRN. They have carte blanche to give it at will, and their first objective is to "keep you out of pain".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm NOT blaming the nurses. (well, maybe a little). It falls under the category of 'it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it". Would I want to be the one? Nope. Would I accept the service? Yes. Provided I met the criteria.



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 09:50 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar
I want to explain something to you. You are sincere, and I can see that. Your wife also works for a Hospice agency that lives by it's own rules, and they have some good ones.

My city started out with a "hospice team", that provided only in-home services, and additionally, team members would accept patients in nursing homes, and even in the hospital. We later launched a huge fundraising campaign to build a facility, as it was needed. The fundraising occurred over a period of several years.
We have a beautiful VA in my city. It's on about 40 acres, has a golf course, rolling hills, perfect landscaping, and a creek runs through it. It's beautiful. I'm not sure how the Hospice folks managed to acquire land on the property, but I think one very wealthy gentleman here purchased it for them. Anyway, the hospice was built on this beautiful property. It is stand-alone from the massive VA hospital. Volunteers keep the grounds up year round. There is something always in bloom. Each patient suite leads to it's own private courtyard, furnished with cushioned furniture and potted plants. It's lovely.

It has a full staff of RN's, LPN's, social workers, and of course it is all headed up by Physicians. Patients may keep their own physician, or use the Hospice physicians. I think there is a group of physicians who rotate on-call and visitation responsibilities. They have a Board of Directors, with Physicians, businessmen, and all the usual city big-wigs who serve on BOD's.

There is a kitchen for family members. Churches keep it stocked with roasted chickens, hams, baked cakes, pies. etc.

Why am I telling you this? Because I want you to understand it is real. Also understand that this beautiful, sophisticated place (which accepts Medicaid) does not have an IV machine on the property. Sorry. They administer 'the cocktail' prn, and I personally observed it to be every 40 minutes with my three different friends who were there, all under the age of 50.

Nobody is losing their license, and nobody is going to jail. It is all perfectly legal and is the conjecture in the OP.
It is legalized Euthanasia.

And to say the obvious -- they were going to die anyway! And they were unconscious, so they were unable to eat or drink. I still maintain that I would rather die a month or two early and not in pain, then have the extra time in pain and anxiety. But that's me. Everybody has to do what they think is best for them, of course.
edit on 6/22/2015 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 10:13 PM
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originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Yes thank you, I am aware of all that. You sound like the doctors…

My mom is close to 80. She is an adult child, always miserable and demanding anyway. Now with the stroke, its effects and the multi visits to doctors, hospitals and all for tests, procedures, recovery, meds, more tests, procedures, endless problem for someone with a narrow comfort zone.

Don't fret, I am good at a taking care of her, am aware of all the risks and requirements for her. I can tell you are educated about it too. Thanks for the advice, it mirrors what we are going through.

Been a hella adventure for the last 5 months.


Sheesh! I know it's annoying when people tell you things you already know. Sorry. (Here I go again, but----
Some of this you describe simply sounds like personality quirks. But nobody knows that better than you. I hope she gets better, sincerely I do. And you too! Taking care of an aging parent is totally exhausting. Yeah, I've been there. Twice. As the only 'daughter' it fell on me to be the 'primary care provider". I swear, I've never been so tired as I was when I was going through all that. Exhausted and in a weird daze of some sort. They didn't go to hospice though. They both died in ICU at the hospital -- five years apart.
edit on 6/22/2015 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 10:49 PM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr


...... the use of psychedelics to help people come to terms with death. I think it's a great idea and has had great results with terminology ill patients. It helps them lose fear over their impending death. It's a wonderful idea, but with government controls over such drugs, it's considered illegal.


Wood, surely you can find someone to assist with this experiment?

'Ain't nobody's bizniss but your own', ......... as they say. : )

I've heard some of that stuff can elevate blood pressure and dramatically increase heart rate though. Do your research please.
For whatever it does, you don't want to make matters worse. (I know I sound like a mama sometimes, sorry)
edit on 6/22/2015 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2015 @ 11:01 PM
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a reply to: ladyinwaiting

There have been multiple small studies performed - Harbor-UCLA, Mclean Hospital, NYU, and Johns Hopskins Bayview Medical Center. '___', psilocybin, and MDMA have been shown to greatly reduce stress and anxiety of one's impending death.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 06:45 AM
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a reply to: ladyinwaiting


Taking care of an aging parent is totally exhausting. Yeah, I've been there. Twice. As the only 'daughter' it fell on me to be the 'primary care provider". I swear, I've never been so tired as I was when I was going through all that. Exhausted and in a weird daze of some sort. They didn't go to hospice though. They both died in ICU at the hospital -- five years apart.

Talk about parallel universes! Except for the dying part… haven't been there yet. But I will be when the time comes.

As a 'primary' I know exactly how you feel. Sounds like you get the human achievement award.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 11:18 AM
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I've only known one person who went to Hospice. I wasn't privy to any of the treatment issues because I wasn't a relative, but I do know she died very quickly after getting there. They said she just stopped breathing. Her brother told me he thought they gave her too many morphine shots, but I think she was close to dying when she got there.



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 12:07 PM
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edit on 23-6-2015 by TNMockingbird because: double post!



posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 12:11 PM
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There are people that defend hospice...and claim that it's just making the people comfortable.

The bottom line is, it's cheaper to slowly increase the pain meds which cause respiratory failure than to keep them alive in a hospital.

My aunt died this way, after they kept ramping up her pain meds. She basically suffocated to death. My fiance's step father died in hospice care from the exact same thing -- to much pain medication retarding his breathing. My fiance's cousin is an RN, and she was appalled at the doses that were being given by the hospice worker.

As an RN in a hospital she knows a thing or two about IV drugs, and she said it was pretty obvious to her what was going on with the doses of morphine and whatever else the hospice cocktail was.

We already have legalized euthanasia in America -- it's called Hospice.

For some, maybe it really is the best option. I just know that I don't want to go out drooling on myself, whacked out of my gourd without any sense of where I am, gasping for breath.



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