Those in authority are God's servants?

a reply to: markosity1973

The bible is a complicated mess

This I agree with.

Matthew 11
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

I don't think Jesus would want it the way it is. The less complicated, the closer to truth it is.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: infolurker

The passage also states that rulers do not bear their swords for no reason on those who do good. The Roman authorities killed thousands of Jesus' earliest followers for trying to spread the truth, I don't see how the passage can be true with that fact in mind.

Paul is presenting the general purpose and practice of government which is to protect those who do right and to punish those who do wrong. Paul mentions the government “bearing the sword.” As far back as the covenant with Noah, God ordained that if someone deliberately takes another person’s life, his life should be taken (Gen. 9:6). This is in reference to capital punishment.

Now there have been many exceptions throughout history. Corrupt governments punish law-abiding citizens who speak out against the corruption and they reward evil doers who help keep them in power. But when governments function as they are supposed to, they protect law-abiding citizens and punish law-breakers.

When the government commands us to do something that is disobedient to God’s Word, we must resist the government and obey God. That is the context.

When the Sanhedrin commanded Peter and John to stop speaking in the name of Jesus, they replied (Acts 4:19-20), “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” Later, when the command was repeated, Peter answered (Acts 5:29), “We must obey God rather than men.”

The understanding is that all civil authorities are worthy of respect because of their office. But honor is only due to those who deserve it because they are honorable in their personal integrity, morals, and in the way that they serve. We should confront the evil behavior of rulers. John the Baptist confronted Herod’s taking his brother’s wife (Matt. 14:4). Jesus called Herod “that fox” (Luke 13:32), which referred either to his deceptiveness or his destructiveness.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

well like i said, Does that have anything to do with the history and creation of the human species and the governing authority over our planet?

No. That's just a collective of duds, 2000 years ago. Humans have been around for millions of years.

So any governing authority would be ancient beyond modern understanding in terms of contemplation of how much history and time has passed between our inception and and the inception of the planet which has existed far longer than anything else we can fathom in tangible reality. Because without this planet we humans would not exist here in this life. and if there is a million year gap, what then?

Is this cesar fellow older than written history? Can he summon Godly forces of which would be in heaven or space or is h just a man pretending? are they all just pretending? Should a person even question if there is a higher power in space. Sure people can believe in Aliens, But to actually know it. Sure one could debate if those aliens created us should you meet them. It's all within reason. It's just as within reason that the alien you meet couldn't of created humans is just lurking. But as a culture that has always had an ingrained knowledge that we were created that the likelyhood if what you are encounter may very well be your species creator. But that's a leaping assumption. Unless of course there are land marks and more defined chronicaled art renditions or texts to be even more sure.

I'm just elaborating this so that we can be real and take it into context. We both know Cesar was scammer. We both know this. Well you may have not of seen aliens so we may not beable to relate on that point because your potencial uncertainty. But from my understanding, being as old as we are. It would seem reasonable if humans were created that a guardian was placed on this planet which would be the ruling authority below the true authority itself which is God. And in religion that guardian is the Messiah. But if you don't believe in the guardian of Earth that's fine.
At least believe in the forces the guardian of earth wields over this planet. Fly flying dics with wings because there was lots of those depicted around the world lol.

But yeah i see you're point but you gotta be able to see perspectives from alternate points of view. Plenty of scavengers endorced the bible as long as they could pretend to be that endorced power by God.

a reply to: infolurker

Jesus did away with the "eye for an eye" ideology, so capital punishment goes against the teachings of Jesus. And name one government throughout history who has abided by what Paul says in Romans 13, I can't think of one except for maybe Sweden or Denmark, and they're largely atheist/agnostic societies.

Paul makes it very clear that ALL authorities were established by God, that they are God's servants, and to rebel against them is to rebel against what God has instituted. What if a government institutes a law that allows for unlimited and anonymous corporate funding of politicians who bend over backwards for that money? If you don't agree with it, you're rebelling against what God has established.

You're taking yourself around in circles.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

We already covered that.

When the government commands us to do something that is disobedient to God’s Word, we must resist the government and obey God. That is the context. But honor is only due to those who deserve it because they are honorable in their personal integrity, morals, and in the way that they serve. We should confront the evil behavior of rulers.

a reply to: infolurker

I'd have to say that you're using eisegesis.

Paul does not differentiate rulers who serve God and those who do not, he simply says that rulers (who MUST have been established by God) are God's servants for our good and do not bear their swords for no reason.

He does not say some will serve God's will and others won't, he simply says that all rulers are God's servants for our good and to rebel against what they institute is to rebel against what God has established.

Again, if you could name any ruling authority in history that has abided by Paul's words here then maybe you would have a point. Every authority has deceived it's people throughout history and fought unjust wars and unjustly killed its citizens.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Here, let's look at similar passages and their descriptions:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Romans 13:1

Let every soul be subject to the authority of the great, for there is no authority that is not from the same God, and those authorities who are from God are under orders.



Titus 3

1Charge them to obey Rulers and Authorities and to submit and be prepared for every good work, 2And not to insult any person, neither to be contending, but they should be humble and show their sweetness in all things to all people.

3For we also from the first were without intelligence and without conviction. We were deceived and Servants to changing lusts and were employed in wickedness and in envy. We were despicable and hating one another. 4But when the sweetness and the loving kindness of God Our Lifegiver was revealed, 5Not by works of righteousness that we had done, but by his own love he gave us life, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of The Spirit of Holiness, 6Whom he poured upon us richly by Yeshua The Messiah Our Lifegiver, 7That we would be made right by his grace and we would be heirs by the hope in eternal life. 8But the saying is trustworthy, and I want you also to be assuring them in these things, that they who have believed in God would be concerned to cultivate good works, for these things are good and beneficial for the children of men.


1 Timothy 2
1Therefore, I beg of you that before all things, you will offer supplications to God, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving, for the sake of all people, 2For the sake of Kings and Rulers, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil way of life in complete reverence to God and purity. 3For this is pleasing and acceptable before God Our Lifegiver, 4He who wills that all people shall have Life, and shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth. 5For God is One, and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah, 6Who gave himself a ransom in the place of every person, a testimony that has come in its time,


1 Peter 2

11Beloved, I beg of you, as wayfarers and as foreigners, depart from all these desires of the body that make war against the soul, 12And let your way of life be beautiful before all children of men*, those who speak wicked words of you, that they may see your beautiful works and praise God in the day of examination.

13Submit to all the sons of men* for the sake of God; to Kings, because of their authority, 14And Judges, because they are sent by him for the punishment of wrongdoers and for the praise of the workers of good. 15For it is the will of God in this way that by your excellent works you may shut the mouths of fools - those who do not know God, 16As free children, and not as persons who make their liberty a cloak for their evil, but as Servants of God. 17Honor every person, love your brethren, worship God and honor Kings.

a reply to: infolurker

I don't see how any of those change the meaning of what is being said. Even Peter says to submit to all "sons of men", a.k.a. kings.

Again, name any ruling authority in history that has followed the words Paul says in Romans 13. You'll be hard pressed to find any at all.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: infolurker

I don't see how any of those change the meaning of what is being said. Even Peter says to submit to all "sons of men", a.k.a. kings.

Again, name any ruling authority in history that has followed the words Paul says in Romans 13. You'll be hard pressed to find any at all.

Do you see anything anywhere about complying with Evil Deeds and Evil Orders.

Not once, anywhere, nada, zip. Why, because everything tells you to accept Christ and stop willfully sinning against your fellow man and yourself and get it out of your life. The intent is to comply with the just laws of a nation, pay your taxes and be a good citizen. There are numerous examples of calling out and resisting unjust authority in the new testament.

To imply that Christians are instructed to comply with wickedness and sin because an authority figure says so or an ungodly law is passed is completely asinine.

Also, even though almost if not all governments on earth are or were corrupt, they still had laws to follow. Look at most of the world today, you pay your taxes, follow the common laws like don't thieve, don't kill, etc.

I don't see where this is not making sense?

a reply to: infolurker

It's not making sense in Romans 13. What is said is that ALL governing authorities are God's agents for our good who do not bear their swords for no reason and are there to bring justice to the wrongdoer and NOT the one who does good. This has clearly never been the case for any governing authority, so the question is: why does Paul say that these governing authorities are God's servants who do his will and to rebel against them is to rebel against God?

Romans 13
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

The ones who rebel against the authority that has been established by God (see: ALL authorities, including today's American rulers) is to bring judgement against themselves.

Verse 1 says there is NO authority that hasn't been established by God, meaning ALL governing authorities have been established by God, including Hitler and Stalin. Those who rebelled against Hitler or Stalin? They brought judgement upon themselves because they went against what had been established by God.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Ever hear the term, "rod of mine anger"? God uses wicked rulers to discipline His apostate believers and to test the faith of His strongest believers, but it never ends well for the tyrant. God also uses just rulers to bless His followers and destroy the corrupt.

Therefore, all authority is established by God as He uses all authorities to bless and to punish.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
It's a fairly straight-forward rule-of-thumb proposition.

God is against crime such as murder, rape, theft.
So whenever the authorities take action against crime, they are doing God's work.
That is the reason Paul gives for their existence, the only reason he gives.

The opening statement about "all authority coming from God" is the inference he is drawing from their action against crime (as frequently, he states his conclusion at the beginning of the argument).
In other words, that is what authority is for, in principle.

Since that has been the original function of authority, historically, the statement holds good as a rule of thumb.

The statement only becomes a problem when people stretch it, in a legalistic and pedantic way, to cover everything that people in authority ever do.
That line of attack may be attractive to a community like this one, where obsessive hostility to authority in general may be combined with obsessive hostility to the Biblical God.
That is why this thread has been seen before, so, so many times.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So God uses rulers to punish the apostate but then goes on to punish those same rulers because they did exactly as his will dictated them to do?

So they were a pawn that was used and then are punished for being a pawn. Or does God forgive them for all the evil they committed?

If this is the case then why does Peter say this:

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

He says that "every human authority" was sent by God to punish those who do wrong and commend those who do right. Do all human authorities punish the wrongdoers and commend the ones who do right?

And by calling the emperor the "supreme authority", isn't he undermining what Jesus says here:

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Strange that Peter says the emperor has supreme authority here on Earth. No wonder kings and emperors have endorsed the bible for thousands of years now.

a reply to: DISRAELI

So why would God establish authorities that would end up doing evil time and again and be rewarded for it while here on Earth? We've seen all throughout history rulers taking advantage of the citizens, believers and unbelievers alike. Both believers and unbelievers are punished for crimes they do not commit while the rulers are never punished for their crimes.

If he can make the bible incorruptible then why not the authorities? And why would he establish so many different types of authorities and government structures throughout history that always end up corrupt? If he establishes all authorities then he's been changing them and their structures for thousands of years for no apparent reason.

OP Are you trying to show the corruption of Yeshua:s teaching to people who do not want to see?

You will have a hard time since their belief in god is connected to their belief in Paul (conditioned that way). The same problem as in Islam. You cannot remove the corruption/half truths that was implanted in Muhammad:s name in Quran and get them to follow Rumi instead. We all learn to seek within the area we are comfortable with and can clearly see. When the ability to seek become more advanced the seeking become farther and you can clearly see farther and know where to go.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The best way to take it is that he establishes the principle of authority (for the purpose of tackling wrongdoing) rather than each and every individual authority. Loose rein, not tight rein.
Humans being what they are, he has never been able to establish anything that was incorruptible. The human element always creeps in.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Romans 13
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This passage from Romans 13 establishes that all authority on Earth has been established by God. If this is the case then why is there so much war between different countries and thus authority figures? Why are there so many different types of government throughout history with differing ideologies? Some are socialist, some communist, some democratic, some theocratic, etc.

If God has established all authorities then why is there so much conflict in the world? If God established them all then why is he establishing them under so many differing government structures that cause wars and embargoes, etc. And why is there a two-party system in America, a supposedly "Christian" nation?

If God truly establishes all governing authorities then there would be no war, all leaders would share the same ideologies, governing authorities wouldn't put innocent people in jail, authorities wouldn't lie to the people to line their own pockets, etc.

Does God really establish all authorities? If so, he's done a piss poor job in my opinion.

The god of the bible is evil..

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Yes, evil rulers can be His pawns. The point is, God can use evil against evil, and those rulers already are forgiven. The question is whether or not they accept forgiveness.

Look at the case of the Apostle John's exile. God used it to bless him and the Church with the Book of Revelation, and the martyrs that died in Christ are commended for holding to their faith. The Book of Daniel also shows how God's sevants should respond to tyranny. The only time Daniel resisted authority was when his faith was challenged.

Just look up "rod of mine anger" in a concordance and start there. I believe Nebuchadnezzar was an example of an evil ruler who repented.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: infolurker

Jesus did away with the "eye for an eye" ideology, so capital punishment goes against the teachings of Jesus. And name one government throughout history who has abided by what Paul says in Romans 13, I can't think of one except for maybe Sweden or Denmark, and they're largely atheist/agnostic societies.

Paul makes it very clear that ALL authorities were established by God, that they are God's servants, and to rebel against them is to rebel against what God has instituted. What if a government institutes a law that allows for unlimited and anonymous corporate funding of politicians who bend over backwards for that money? If you don't agree with it, you're rebelling against what God has established.

You're taking yourself around in circles.

Everything, even Satan, is allowed by God's will, but that doesn't mean that we are to now start doing exactly what Satan would have us do.

Remember, there is an entire book of the Bible where God allowed Satan to test Job rather harshly. The only God did not allow is for Satan to kill Job. The point was that no matter how severe life got, Job would not turn from how God wanted him to live.

Yes, God allows our governments to be put in place, may even use them to punish, but that does not mean everything they do or demand is righteous. To say as much is to say that the Nazis are righteous or that ISIS is righteous or that Stalin or Pol Pot were righteous and that we should hold all of those examples up in esteem as perfect examples of God's way.

It always comes back to you and your relationship with God and what God has decreed to be a good life. Do you live that or not? And when another human being comes along and tells you to live otherwise, which authority is higher for you: God or that agency of man?

I walk with God. YMMV

a reply to: DISRAELI

The human element always creeps in.

And yet we are made in gods image...No wonder I know that the OT god jehovah is the demiurge