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60,000 Manufacturing Plants Closed Since 2001

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posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 08:21 PM
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originally posted by: truthseeker84
I'm actually kind of on the fence about this issue.

Probably because I'm not very good with Economics, I just don't understand how these kind of problems can be solved.

For instance, we all love our iDevices very much, but how much would that iDevice cost if it was to be manufactured here in the U.S. where minimum wage is like hitting $15 USD/hr?

I'm actually in OEM manufacturing business for electronic components. I'm telling you guys straight up, there is no way any of us or manufacturing facilities like us can survive in this day and age by putting an assembly plant here in the U.S. It is simply not possible.

Guang Zhou, Da Lian, inner China is where you need to be. Otherwise you'll need to start up a plant in Africa or Mexico, there is no way a commercial scale manufacturing plant can compete with those kind of low monthly salaries.

The average Chinese worker at Foxconn, or plants similar to Foxconn like my company, makes about 1,800 RMB to 2,300 RMB a month. This is like average assembly worker wage in China now days.

Even at the highest amount of 2,300 RMB a month, that's roughly equivalent to about $380 to $400 a month in USD. Where in the hell can you find workers here in the U.S. that are willing to work for $400 a month? How can they survive on that?

The problem is, in China, if you make 2,300 RMB/month, you could get by in a rural city quite easily and comfortably I might add. So the workers are actually quite happy to make those peanuts, because the alternative for them, is either to starve on the street or do swat meets for life.

To me, it's about being real.

For business men, they are in it to make money. If I start a company, whatever it may be, I'm opening it for the sake of getting myself rich. I'm not here to save the planet, we're not here to save the Manatees guys... quoting Ben Affleck lol.. we're here for one reason, to get filthy rich. At least, that is most entrepreneurs line of thought, when they want to start a business.

Quite obviously, businesses tends to gravitate towards countries and laws that are either more lax towards their practice or extremely beneficial for their bottom line.

If you are the CEO of a company and you were informed that you can make $20 million more for your company, by outsourcing the manual labor work to China, wouldn't you do it?

It's more like, businesses are doing whatever that is beneficial for themselves. Is that truly wrong?

We want the jobs to come back, but how? iPhone 6 manufacturing cost from Foxconn is like $4.50/unit, you think we can compete with that here in the U.S.? I mean, I'm really just bad at Economics here, but like I said, I'm very curious to hear what other people's opinions are on this subject.

Like, how do you solve a worker wage at $400 USD/month overseas vs. an average hourly worker in U.S. makes at least $9/hr, 40 hours a week, that puts you at $1,440. There's no competition here.

Not only labor cost issues, but other laws as well. Tax laws, labor laws, environmental laws and regulations, manufacturing safety standards and what not, every little thing translates to a $. If by going overseas, establishing my manufacturing facility there, can save my company tons and tons of money.. then I must be stupid not to bring my empire over there.

You see, you want outsourcing to stop, then there must be incentives to keep said jobs here in the states. It all comes down to the bottom line.

If by keeping the jobs in U.S., it helps with the company's bottom line, they will do it.

If by keep the jobs overseas, it helps with the company's bottom line, then they will keep the jobs outsourced.

It's simple to me, but people just keep arguing about this with no obviously suggestions to resolve the problem from the core.



Good Post.

China is a Communist Country where workers have no rights and have been booted off their lands to go make widgets.
The difference is that Big Business has no right to move to China and sell back to us if it harms this country in accordance with the Constitution where this country comes first. Tariffs!

Big Business owns our government and wants Joey to compete with Chao in China or Apudi in India without any consideration for this country and that needs to change. They absolutely hate the Constitution because it interferes with their Corporate Globalist Utopia.




posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 08:27 PM
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This isn't going to be a popular post....

What if the majority of jobs (that are lost) were just fluff to make a largely unskilled labor pool motivated, to keep said system on life support...

What if people have become to unskilled, too supported, by having services provided to them only by a monopoly....

What if, like the Bond Bubble coming on, that your skills, your labor, was all just -- well-- pretty worthless as far as being able to truly support yourself.....keeping in mind the tentacle of control that the Leaders of Industry have.... They have established everything for us, while building there monopolies....

You may say, well, nursing is a skill!

Can a monkey do your job?

If a monkey can do your job, can a robot?



posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 08:37 PM
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originally posted by: rainbowbear
a reply to: jacobe001
America and it's people ,

Have been involved in the biggest, most perfect, and insidious public relations campaign since at least 1910.it involves churches, schools, and private business....
AMERICA...It's is better known as the land of the snakes.....
...and I think the rest of the world bought the lie that we were special, too...
The big question was/is how to control people. It's unknown if the experiment is over or if any results have been found....

That's what happened.


As a Veteran that was sold that I was protecting our "Freedoms" at a naive younger age, and as a citizen who was told I was living in the most "Free" country and as a voter, was told I am participating in free and fair elections and as a citizen that was told justice is not blind and applies to $$everyone$$ I realize how much of a propaganda filled psychological experiment it was.

Through out history, the one thing the top elite have always had to struggle with was a restless population always trying to overthrow them. Giving the people the illusion of choice in all matters was the solution and the scam is slowly being laid out in the open with the information age.



posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 08:45 PM
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originally posted by: rainbowbear
This isn't going to be a popular post....

What if the majority of jobs (that are lost) were just fluff to make a largely unskilled labor pool motivated, to keep said system on life support...

What if people have become to unskilled, too supported, by having services provided to them only by a monopoly....

What if, like the Bond Bubble coming on, that your skills, your labor, was all just -- well-- pretty worthless as far as being able to truly support yourself.....keeping in mind the tentacle of control that the Leaders of Industry have.... They have established everything for us, while building there monopolies....

You may say, well, nursing is a skill!

Can a monkey do your job?

If a monkey can do your job, can a robot?



I don't view them as benevolent in their plans if that is your thinking.
They have blocked off all means and polices to potential self sufficiency and living in the system is your only option and if you are not contributing to their system, you are a useless eater deemed for extinction.



posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 08:45 PM
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a reply to: rainbowbear

I agree, like when was the last time their wasn't a recession, we seem to have a permanent recession, limping from one financial crisis to the next, which keeps expectations low, while the people saying "Its the Recession" are getting richer by the hour. The latest generation have been conned, to the point where they expect far less than the previous generation, and have got to work twice as hard, to get what crumbs they can.

If its one recession after the other, then something is radically wrong with the system. But will never get its over hall, while the ones benefitting are doing well, and running things .



posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: rainbowbear

I agree, like when was the last time their wasn't a recession, we seem to have a permanent recession, limping from one financial crisis to the next, which keeps expectations low, while the people saying "Its the Recession" are getting richer by the hour. The latest generation have been conned, to the point where they expect far less than the previous generation, and have got to work twice as hard, to get what crumbs they can.

If its one recession after the other, then something is radically wrong with the system. But will never get its over hall, while the ones benefitting are doing well, and running things .


It is a pump and dump scheme and is intentional.

In 1994, Brooskley Born tried to regulate derivatives that were responsible for the 2008 crash.
About 15 Bankers stormed DC to put a stop to it. They said, and I quote, her actions would have caused the biggest financial crash since WW2.

The Top Bankers knew the fire they were playing with and what was also to come as far back as 1994.
It is all a rich mans game.



posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 09:11 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan,

my goal is to start a software company after finishing school. I don't want to do it to get filthy rich, I don't really care about my economic standing beyond reliable food and shelter. I want to do my part to end unemployment and low wages in the country. If I can employ 10 people at a good wage I would be happy, that would be 10 fewer people in poverty. We have 50 million that need jobs right now, if just 5 million people, a mere 2% of our population could do this we would solve the problem.

Outsourcing to China goes directly against that philosophy, I would be taking the ability to employ people here and exporting it, hurting the country I live in and paying rock bottom wages that don't even help the people in the country I move to. That's the very definition of evil in this world.



originally posted by: truthseeker84

You sound young and naive, but what you've said is very admirable. I do respect your views.

However, I can pretty much tell you flat out that that's not how the real world works. If all business owners are like minded as you are, we wouldn't be in this situation.

The real world however, doesn't work that way.


BS. I have a company with 30 employees that are like family to me. 2 rookies make living wage, the long time employees make much more along with great benefits and bonuses, great bonuses. I live well but not fancy (I'm a hippy at heart, what would I do with diamonds and furs, gimme my garden clothes and a new bed to plant in any day).

I choose to invest my income in my family and give them a step up to start a business, pay down student loans, down payment on 3/2 home, purchase cars that get decent mileage and the A/C works, (lol, I remember those days of struggling, even had to pawn my flute back in the day).

My company does very well thank you, (5.5 million last year) and together we all realize that yes, it is possible to live a fulfilled life working together without selling out to China or wherever. Sounds corny but it's true.

I wish the best and high success for all of you in your endeavors,

STM
edit on 18-6-2015 by seentoomuch because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2015 @ 09:14 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

No it's not benevolence.--the recognition that we all have benefited from their engineering to some extent...yes, monopolized, privatized, yes-- but-- we have the fuel, ( yes, I know we should be light years ahead with some Tesla tech, instead of petroleum based energy, yes, I know that Westinghouse and or GE are withholding tech and that hurts you and I,) but still-- you and I have had ample leisure time to investigate, study, innovate, learn and to build a better model. It's basically not an either/ or-- it's also and--
They build, fund and innovate (and control) things that I benefit from on a daily basis....cars, computers, building materials cleaner sanitation....I realized a while back that the Banks manipulation would overvalue everything In the World....meaning labor as well...hence this tread.....

I think it's all about knowledge and the control ( monopoly) of that... And technology and innovation is a human art-- there's no "Govt" or CorporTion" that makes technology no matter what they report on the S and P----
Then the need to control, the human.

It's like a math equation to me. We will see the fruits of this but again-- I think it's regular market contraction.



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 12:56 AM
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a reply to: onequestion


The US government is currently spending $60 billion, every year, to restrain business activity. (And the EU is worse.) On top of that, reasonable estimates show that US government regulations cost businesses nearly $2 trillion per year.

And let’s be honest about this: The primary purpose of regulation is to give the friends of congressmen a business advantage. Why else would they pay millions of dollars to lobbyists?

So, the new jobs that should be spawned, will not be. Mega-corps own Congress and they get the laws they pay for. And mega-corps do not like competition.

Furthermore, the political-corporate-bureaucratic complex will bite and claw to retain every scrap of power they have, and small businesses will be their first victims. (They already are.)

www.freemansperspective.com...



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 03:57 AM
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a reply to: rainbowbear

3 years ago I was going on about the robot waiters that were coming to take away those service sector jobs. China and Japan have been developing and deploying them. In restaurants these days a robot serves you and takes your order. Whenever it finally catches on over here, those jobs will be gone.

I may have missed my prediction on when it will happen, but I promise it's coming. McDonalds is starting to use kiosks in their stores where you order without a cashier. These jobs will soon be gone. I think it's a good thing that we can supply humanities needs, wants, and desires with less labor but the question becomes... how do we then adjust the income system so that people are still self supporting when we don't have the jobs to go around?

Regardless of what we do with the minimum wage, this is coming and it will affect all of us. From the business owner who now has a new labor dynamic to the student trying to earn rent money while going to college.



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 07:45 AM
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originally posted by: peck420
a reply to: ufoorbhunter
Isolationism is not an option for any country that wishes to still be an independent country in the next 25 years.

The resources required, to continue on our current path, come in two flavours:

Cheap and dirty.
Expensive and clean.

If they choose cheap and dirty, there is going to be serious issues watering and feeding the current population, let alone any additional growth.

If they choose expensive and clean, they will have been grossly surpassed by the rest of the world while developing the resource production.


I'm not talking total isolationism, I.m talking isolation from countries that don't play fair on the manufacturing scene, namel China. If it was like the rest of us in the Capitalist world (including Asia) we could compete, but with an artifical currency they fix it to make their poroducts cheaper than ours thus driving our companies out of business. I say play fair or no trade.

For sure we need markets like China to sell to long term, blimey, what a market, over a billion people to sell our wares to
But they have to play fair



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 08:05 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter
Ah, so it is only "fair" if it benefits you...got it.

The irony of your post is that you make no mention of the unfair capital markets those countries must deal with when trading with the US.

I hate to break the bad news to you, but the US is just as "unfair" when dealing with her strengths, as countries like China are with theirs.



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: truthseeker84

If it only cost 4.50 a unit why are they charging 600?

How couldn't they afford to make them in the US?


Here is only a few key reasons, there are a lot more of course, but here's a few popular and well known reasons:

1.

As the Times article pointed out, that’s just what President Obama asked Steve Jobs when they met last February. Jobs answered bluntly: “Those jobs are not coming back.”

Foxconn is contracted by Apple to assemble iPhones in a southern Chinese city, Shenzhen, and Foxconn employs 230,000 workers. The Foxconn campus has banks, supermarkets, bookstores, fire brigades, a police station, a hospital, and many other facilities. It is sometimes referred to as “iPod City.” The total employment generated by Foxconn’s work on iProducts is well beyond those directly hired by Foxconn, due to the so-called “job multiplier.. Imagine what kind of job opportunities would come to America if an iPhone factory were located here and hired 230,000 American assembly workers.

That is indeed a very appealing scenario, but unfortunately, a very bad one. The average manufacturing wage in 2010 is about $2.00 in China and $34.75 in America. By locating the same iPhone factory in America, Apple would add more than $25 billion in labor costs a year, which would completely wipe out Apple’s 2010 profit of $14 billion. Had we made the iPhone here in America, we would have deprived Apple of the resources to employ highly paid engineers to design, professionals to market, and young associates of Apple Stores to sell the cool products. Apple might have been bankrupted a long time ago.


Source: www.forbes.com...

So here we address the cost of labor.

2.


During that infamous Silicon Valley dinner with Barack Obama, the POTUS asked Steve Jobs, "what would it take to make iPhones in the United States?" And once upon a time, Apple would have loved to make the iPhone in the US of A. In fact, the old Apple prided itself on making products in the USA. But ever since the early 2000's, Apple has made most of its products outside the US. Why? It's a combination of not only cheaper labor but better labor, better factories and scale. According to the NY Times, who spoke with Apple executives:

Apple's executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers eventually involved in manufacturing iPhones. The company's analysts had forecast it would take as long as nine months to find that many qualified engineers in the United States.

In China, it took 15 days.
That flexibility, speed and scale in factory workers just doesn't exist in the US. Apple says it "shouldn't be criticized for using Chinese workers" because "the U.S. has stopped producing people with the skills we need." There just aren't enough skilled workers in the US that have that inbetween degree of high school and college. That's what Apple wants in its factory workers and that's what China gives 'em.

And though everyone cites how the cost of labor is much cheaper in China, the fact is labor is less important to a company's bottom line than supply chains are. And the reality is, all the supply chains to manufacture consumer electronics exist in China.


Source: gizmodo.com...

I specifically put BOLD text, in #2 for you. It is very important. When you start up manufacturing, you have to also consider where all of your components sourcing comes from as well. If everything you need to build an iPhone, all components needed are within a 25 mile radius of your plant, you have no idea the amount of money you can save/squeeze out.

Not only China is efficient in getting things done, it's pretty much a one stop shop.

So here, we addressed efficiency and cost savings again.

3.

"IPad, the Macs, the iPhones, they are all manufactured in China, and one of the major reasons is labor is so much cheaper there," Crowley said. "How do you convince a great American company to bring that manufacturing back here?"

Mitt Romney said the solution is "very straightforward." The United States must pressure China to stop manipulating its currency, he said, and the federal government needs to "make America the most attractive place for entrepreneurs" by lowering taxes. He supports reducing the top corporate tax rate to 25%, down from its current 35%.

President Obama offered a starker answer: "Candy, there are some jobs that are not going to come back, because they're low-wage, low-skill jobs."

Speaking strictly for Apple, Obama's assessment is likely correct. Apple (AAPL) has said that it directly employs thousands of its own workers in China, and about 700,000 assembly workers at manufacturing contractors like Foxconn put together Apple products. It would be almost impossible to bring those jobs to the United States.

Foxconn -- China's largest private employer and the manufacturer of an estimated 40% half of the world's consumer electronic devices -- pays its assembly workers far less than American labor laws would allow. A typical salary is 2500 RMB (U.S. $400), or about $18 a day.

But pay isn't the biggest obstacle. Various economists have estimated how much an all-American labor force would add to the cost of an iPhone and come up with figures ranging from $65 to $100 per device.


Source: money.cnn.com...

Here, we address the cost impact involved.

4.

The real stumbling block is speed. Unlike U.S. plants, Foxconn and other Chinese manufacturing operations house employees in dormitories and can send hundreds of thousands of workers to the assembly lines at a moment's notice. On the lines, workers are subjected to what most Americans would consider unbearably long hours and tough working conditions.

That system gives tech companies the efficiency needed to race products out the door. Plus, most of the component suppliers for Apple and other tech giants are also in China or other Asian countries. That geographic clustering gives companies the flexibility to change a product design at the last minute and still ship on time.


Source: money.cnn.com...

Here, we address many other problems, such as efficiency. Like American culture vs Asian culture. You think that lady sipping her coffee at the DMV, leaving at 3pm to go pick up her kids from school, is willing to be subject into the same working conditions as a Foxconn worker? Getting a wake up call during wee hours for a production assembly run?

Apple will get law suits faster than their product leaks here in the U.S.

There are many more other factors, I could go on forever:

1. Strategic shipping locations - China ports, available vessel routes cuts down freight time
2. Business practice laws, China vs U.S.
3. Environmental issues. In China, pollution is treated very differently. Here in U.S., can you even fathom the amount of money Apple would have to spend to grease the EPA?

The list goes on and on, but as another poster said, you don't want me to write an essay on why manufacturing is not coming back.



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 06:04 PM
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originally posted by: seentoomuch

originally posted by: Aazadan,

my goal is to start a software company after finishing school. I don't want to do it to get filthy rich, I don't really care about my economic standing beyond reliable food and shelter. I want to do my part to end unemployment and low wages in the country. If I can employ 10 people at a good wage I would be happy, that would be 10 fewer people in poverty. We have 50 million that need jobs right now, if just 5 million people, a mere 2% of our population could do this we would solve the problem.

Outsourcing to China goes directly against that philosophy, I would be taking the ability to employ people here and exporting it, hurting the country I live in and paying rock bottom wages that don't even help the people in the country I move to. That's the very definition of evil in this world.



originally posted by: truthseeker84

You sound young and naive, but what you've said is very admirable. I do respect your views.

However, I can pretty much tell you flat out that that's not how the real world works. If all business owners are like minded as you are, we wouldn't be in this situation.

The real world however, doesn't work that way.


BS. I have a company with 30 employees that are like family to me. 2 rookies make living wage, the long time employees make much more along with great benefits and bonuses, great bonuses. I live well but not fancy (I'm a hippy at heart, what would I do with diamonds and furs, gimme my garden clothes and a new bed to plant in any day).

I choose to invest my income in my family and give them a step up to start a business, pay down student loans, down payment on 3/2 home, purchase cars that get decent mileage and the A/C works, (lol, I remember those days of struggling, even had to pawn my flute back in the day).

My company does very well thank you, (5.5 million last year) and together we all realize that yes, it is possible to live a fulfilled life working together without selling out to China or wherever. Sounds corny but it's true.

I wish the best and high success for all of you in your endeavors,

STM


Read my post above, you'll get a better understanding.

I'm not here to measure dicks but.. $5.5 million what? Annual revenue or net earnings? Either or, it's too small to be considered a player nor an impact in the manufacturing industry.

Dude, I supply for companies like G.E. & Samsung, compared to them, I'm even embarrassed to mention my company's revenue, although it is in the hundred millions USD tier.

Though I'm glad to know that you are operating your business based on your own principals, I can tell you that when you're company becomes greater in scale and deals in manufacturing, your entire view on this subject would change in a heart beat.



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 06:15 PM
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a reply to: truthseeker84

Dude (as you like to say, you know that makes you sound like a 14 year old, right?) Maybe what's wrong with America is the giants like GE, Apple and Samsung. They've gotten too big to function on a human level. Maybe what we need are thousands/millions of companies like mine that still provide a LIFE for the employees.

I don't want my company to expand, it's fine as it is. As it is we have the distributors begging for more product, but Dude, if we keep it at these levels people are talking about how it's always sold out fast, and they rush to clear the shelves. Pricing is key to making this method work without expanding and I really wouldn't be surprised if you had my product in your home.

And Dude, what company have you started and ran and made a great profit from? You can talk, but can you do the walk? I seriously doubt it.

STM
edit on 19-6-2015 by seentoomuch because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2015 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: seentoomuch
a reply to: truthseeker84

Dude (as you like to say, you know that makes you sound like a 14 year old, right?) Maybe what's wrong with America is the giants like GE, Apple and Samsung. They've gotten too big to function on a human level. Maybe what we need are thousands/millions of companies like mine that still provide a LIFE for the employees. And Dude, what company have you started and ran and made a great profit from? You can talk, but can you do the walk? I seriously doubt it.

STM


I was born in 1984, I'm not a 14 year old


The dude, was inserted in a condescending way perhaps. I don't mean to disrespect, but rather pointing out the fact that your small company really shouldn't be used as a role model of comparison to giants like G.E. or Samsung. You can't and shouldn't compare a Mom and Pop shop to Walmart. Both operate very different, therefore cannot be compared neither morally nor ethically.

Things are different, your world view is different when you're sitting at the top. How many employees do you have? Estimating your $5.5 mil revenue, I put it somewhere between 5 to 15 staffs or perhaps less. I'm real happy for you and your workers, that they are being well treated. Are you asking companies like Apple to do the same? to 80,000 of their employees world wide?

Perhaps yes, with millions of small timers like yourself, perhaps we would be better off. I never disagreed with that, I also didn't put down another poster who had a dream of taking care of his employees. I'm simply telling you that in the real world, when your company becomes as big as any fortune 500 or fortune 1000 companies, and you happen to be in manufacturing, there is just no way you can "WALK THE WALK" yourself.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not here to measure dick with you, so there's no point on telling you how many businesses I profited from. I can tell you this much, as of 2015, I am among the top 20% earners in this country, for my age group.



posted on Jun, 20 2015 @ 09:05 AM
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originally posted by: peck420
a reply to: ufoorbhunter
Ah, so it is only "fair" if it benefits you...got it.

The irony of your post is that you make no mention of the unfair capital markets those countries must deal with when trading with the US.

I hate to break the bad news to you, but the US is just as "unfair" when dealing with her strengths, as countries like China are with theirs.



How can it be a fair playing field when China artificially suppresses the value of its currency to dominate the world of manufacuring? Sure cheap labour helps the Chines but they also undercut foreigners by keeping their currency cheap. That is simply not fair. Their environmental record is also poor, this helps them keep their products competitive. China quite simply does not play fair. If China didn't exist things for most countries maufacturers would improve. You can't compete with slavery, it's not fair



posted on Jun, 20 2015 @ 11:53 AM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
How can it be a fair playing field when China artificially suppresses the value of its currency to dominate the world of manufacuring? Sure cheap labour helps the Chines but they also undercut foreigners by keeping their currency cheap. That is simply not fair. Their environmental record is also poor, this helps them keep their products competitive. China quite simply does not play fair. If China didn't exist things for most countries maufacturers would improve. You can't compete with slavery, it's not fair

So, again...it is only fair when it benefits you.

Boohoo.

China wouldn't be required to artificially deflate their currency, if the US didn't artificially inflate the value of products made in China.

Valuing a good based on it's sales price in another country, not on said goods value at manufacture, is what causes the problem. And who is it that did that? It wasn't the Chinese. It was Western bankers that needed to artificially inflate their "economic growth" charts.

Your sorry excuse of 'fairness' is nothing more than complaining about a bribing the refs and still losing the game.



posted on Jun, 20 2015 @ 12:12 PM
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Hypothetically, if you can move your workforce overseas and pay someone less who does the same job equally well then what's the moral failing???? It just makes business sense. Why would you hire someone who wants more money, but doesn't do an equivalent amount of work? Maybe you don't need to pay 2x for 1.1x productivity because you're doing fine as you're?

IMHO, US workers forgot how to work. They ask exorbitant wages and benefits but do not compensate you. And the government overtaxes everything, forcing you to be as international as possible. If you can build a part of your business in another country because the taxes are lower, WHY NOT? I'd do what makes sense.

What's happening is the fat americans are waking up to a bigger world and suddenly realizing they have to compete with them. And they're performing pitifully. Students are failing. Workers are failing. It's so bad foreigners come here to get formally educated and do great, proving the problem isn't our schools but our parents. Our parents aren't pushing students to excel and to pursue work at the level they should.

Sorry I have no sympathy. It can't be simpler.
edit on 20-6-2015 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2015 @ 12:50 PM
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originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: truthseeker84
I'm actually kind of on the fence about this issue.

Probably because I'm not very good with Economics, I just don't understand how these kind of problems can be solved.

For instance, we all love our iDevices very much, but how much would that iDevice cost if it was to be manufactured here in the U.S. where minimum wage is like hitting $15 USD/hr?

I'm actually in OEM manufacturing business for electronic components. I'm telling you guys straight up, there is no way any of us or manufacturing facilities like us can survive in this day and age by putting an assembly plant here in the U.S. It is simply not possible.

Guang Zhou, Da Lian, inner China is where you need to be. Otherwise you'll need to start up a plant in Africa or Mexico, there is no way a commercial scale manufacturing plant can compete with those kind of low monthly salaries.

The average Chinese worker at Foxconn, or plants similar to Foxconn like my company, makes about 1,800 RMB to 2,300 RMB a month. This is like average assembly worker wage in China now days.

Even at the highest amount of 2,300 RMB a month, that's roughly equivalent to about $380 to $400 a month in USD. Where in the hell can you find workers here in the U.S. that are willing to work for $400 a month? How can they survive on that?

The problem is, in China, if you make 2,300 RMB/month, you could get by in a rural city quite easily and comfortably I might add. So the workers are actually quite happy to make those peanuts, because the alternative for them, is either to starve on the street or do swat meets for life.

To me, it's about being real.

For business men, they are in it to make money. If I start a company, whatever it may be, I'm opening it for the sake of getting myself rich. I'm not here to save the planet, we're not here to save the Manatees guys... quoting Ben Affleck lol.. we're here for one reason, to get filthy rich. At least, that is most entrepreneurs line of thought, when they want to start a business.

Quite obviously, businesses tends to gravitate towards countries and laws that are either more lax towards their practice or extremely beneficial for their bottom line.

If you are the CEO of a company and you were informed that you can make $20 million more for your company, by outsourcing the manual labor work to China, wouldn't you do it?

It's more like, businesses are doing whatever that is beneficial for themselves. Is that truly wrong?

We want the jobs to come back, but how? iPhone 6 manufacturing cost from Foxconn is like $4.50/unit, you think we can compete with that here in the U.S.? I mean, I'm really just bad at Economics here, but like I said, I'm very curious to hear what other people's opinions are on this subject.

Like, how do you solve a worker wage at $400 USD/month overseas vs. an average hourly worker in U.S. makes at least $9/hr, 40 hours a week, that puts you at $1,440. There's no competition here.

Not only labor cost issues, but other laws as well. Tax laws, labor laws, environmental laws and regulations, manufacturing safety standards and what not, every little thing translates to a $. If by going overseas, establishing my manufacturing facility there, can save my company tons and tons of money.. then I must be stupid not to bring my empire over there.

You see, you want outsourcing to stop, then there must be incentives to keep said jobs here in the states. It all comes down to the bottom line.

If by keeping the jobs in U.S., it helps with the company's bottom line, they will do it.

If by keep the jobs overseas, it helps with the company's bottom line, then they will keep the jobs outsourced.

It's simple to me, but people just keep arguing about this with no obviously suggestions to resolve the problem from the core.



Good Post.

China is a Communist Country where workers have no rights and have been booted off their lands to go make widgets.
The difference is that Big Business has no right to move to China and sell back to us if it harms this country in accordance with the Constitution where this country comes first. Tariffs!

Big Business owns our government and wants Joey to compete with Chao in China or Apudi in India without any consideration for this country and that needs to change. They absolutely hate the Constitution because it interferes with their Corporate Globalist Utopia.


How do you think capitalism manifested if not by violently/coercively enclosing common land/resources in so forcing people into wage labor?




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