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Russia says will retaliate if U.S. weapons stationed on its borders

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posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 01:34 AM
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It doesn't matter what the west or NATO thinks with regards to crimea. None of those entities have any business or authority to sign any agreement with Russia on that topic. Crimea is a part of Ukraine and will remain so, even under Russian occupation, until Ukraine decides otherwise.




posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 02:04 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
It doesn't matter what the west or NATO thinks with regards to crimea. None of those entities have any business or authority to sign any agreement with Russia on that topic. Crimea is a part of Ukraine and will remain so, even under Russian occupation, until Ukraine decides otherwise.


As Russia has occupied Crimea since 1783, I really don't believe things are going to change. It's as Russian as Maryland is American. Ironically both occupations are similar in time. That's about the same length of time Americans have occupied British north America. Are you going to give back the 13 states Xcathdra that belong to Britain? Some Brits still view the thirteen as rightfully theirs. Can you hand them back?



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 03:12 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The failure in your argument is the USSR gave Crimea to Ukraine by law in the 1950's. The agreements signed after the collapse of the USSR recognized Ukraine sovereignty, including Crimea as a part of Ukraine.

Your scenario would be along the lines of the 13 colonies becoming independent with Britain recognizing the colonies. After 50 years Britain decides they want new York back and invades.

Like Russia the British would also be wrong thinking the claim is valid.

If your are going to use the history argument then turkey has every right to Crimea and Germany has every right to Kaliningrad.


edit on 21-6-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 03:37 AM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: Xcathdra
It doesn't matter what the west or NATO thinks with regards to crimea. None of those entities have any business or authority to sign any agreement with Russia on that topic. Crimea is a part of Ukraine and will remain so, even under Russian occupation, until Ukraine decides otherwise.


As Russia has occupied Crimea since 1783, I really don't believe things are going to change. It's as Russian as Maryland is American. Ironically both occupations are similar in time. That's about the same length of time Americans have occupied British north America. Are you going to give back the 13 states Xcathdra that belong to Britain? Some Brits still view the thirteen as rightfully theirs. Can you hand them back?


You left out alot how convenient for you. First Crimea be am an auto mouse state in 1921. It's stayed independent until September of 1942 where it was annexed by germany and incorporated with Ukraine.In 1944 soviets invaded Crimea and then under the pretext of alleged collaboration of the Crimean Tatars with the Nazi occupation regime, the Soviet government on orders of Joseph Stalin and Lavrentiy Beria deported the Crimean Tatar people from Crimea. It became part of russia in may of 1946. Then in in 1954 became part if Ukrainian SSR. It remained part of Ukraine until 1991 were it became an autonomous state of Ukraine.

So since 1921 russia owned it 8 yrs total. Ukraine 60 years I think they have a much better claim on the area then Russians. Especially since all Russians did is sent the people that lived there to death camps. Now who owned it the longest Turkey OR MORE PRECISELY THE OTTOMONS. Who to this day have a valid claim on crimea.Or the mongols with Ghengis Khan who took over the entire area. How gar back do you want to go armenians??But see you can't keep going back in history and use that because there was always somebody there before you. So Russia by gar has the weakest claim on the area. Oh and just so you know until Stalin forced the residents into death camps there were very few ethnic russians in Crimea. This is why Stalin annexed the area afraid it would return to Turkey.




edit on 6/21/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:00 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

I see you commenting on Crimea for over a year now and you still don't know basic historical facts.



It's stayed independent until September of 1942 where it was annexed by germany and incorporated with Ukraine.


So, by your account Crimea was independent state from 1921- 1942 ?

Crimea was part of RSFSR at that time, go read you history books again. And, btw the proper name for "OTTOMONS" is The OttomAn Empire.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:13 AM
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originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: dragonridr

I see you commenting on Crimea for over a year now and you still don't know basic historical facts.



It's stayed independent until September of 1942 where it was annexed by germany and incorporated with Ukraine.


So, by your account Crimea was independent state from 1921- 1942 ?

Crimea was part of RSFSR at that time, go read you history books again. And, btw the proper name for "OTTOMONS" is The OttomAn Empire.


No you do it was an independent state that signed a treaty in 1921 along with Ukraine to become part of the USSR. Russia was also one of these states. It remained under independent control however until 1942. Putin didn't tell you this in his history lessons. You know like the one where he claims nova russia existed. It never did he made it up. Here's something you can learn go look at the treaty in 1921 apatently you need to see real history.
edit on 6/21/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:33 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr




No you do it was an independent state that signed a treaty in 1921 along with Ukraine to become part of the USSR.


No, you are wrong. USSR was formed in 1922.

RSFSR was formed in 1919, and the only reason why Crimea wasn't part of RSFSR is because this was the time of civil war in the former Russian Empire. Crimea was the main and last avante post of "White Russian army".




Wrangel's Russian Army[edit]
Formation of the "Russian Army" by Wrangel heralds the last phase of the Russian Civil War in the South. The Crimean peninsula was the White's last stronghold and had all of the remnants of the other White Armies that had been crushed in the South as well. The Army of the Caucasus, which had been part of the AFSR was destroyed in May 1920 by the Reds, the survivor's fled to either join Wrangel or to Georgia. By July 1920, Wrangel had 25,000 infantry, 5,00 cavalry, 13 tanks, 25 armoured cars, 40 aircraft, 2 battleships, 3 cruisers, 11 destroyers, 4 submarines and 8 gunboats. This expanded by October to 41,000 infantry and 17,000 cavalry. But despite the rise in manpower, Wrangel was unable to make a successful offensive towards Moscow and break out of his Crimean stronghold.

The Bolshevik 2nd Southern Front's final assault on the Crimea was successful and managed to defeat the last great White threat to the Reds. The survivors of the armies were evacuated to Istanbul by Foreign ships. In 1921 they were transferred to Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, where they were finally disbanded.

en.wikipedia.org...


I'm using available wikipedia articles that are not edited by Putin, so stop this ad hominem attacks. English language articles even often have western bias. I'm not even quoting you Russian language versions which are in many parts have more factual details ( though also more russian bias)

The fact that your false info getting starred is worrying, but what can I expect from "land of the free morons" lol ?
edit on 21-6-2015 by kitzik because: (no reason given)


Moreover, since Putin's Russia is essentially reconstruction of Russian Empire, Crimea belongs to Putin. Putin is the right heir to Baron Wrangel army lol
edit on 21-6-2015 by kitzik because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:46 AM
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a reply to: kitzik




I see you commenting on Crimea for over a year now and you still don't know basic historical facts.


Here you go something you should read...

Basic history of Crimea.


After the Bolshevik Revolution (1917) an independent Crimean republic was proclaimed; but the region was soon occupied by German forces and then became a refuge for the White Army. In 1921 a Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was created; Tatars then constituted about 25% of the population. During World War II, German invaders took the Crimea after an eight-month siege. Accused by the Soviet government of collaborating with the Germans, the Crimean Tatars were forcibly removed from their homeland after the war and resettled in distant parts of the Asian USSR. The republic itself was dissolved (1945) and made into a region of the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic; in 1954 it was transferred to Ukraine. In 1989, Tatars began to return from their exile in Siberia and Central Asia In 1921


www.encyclopedia.com...



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:51 AM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

And, where this contradicting what I said ?

Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was created in 1921 and was incorporated into Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic (RSFSR) as one of many similar "autonomous republics"




Turkestan ASSR – Formed on April 30, 1918, on the territory of the former Turkestan General-Governorate. As part of the delimitation programme of Soviet Central Asia, the Turkestan ASSR along with the Khorezm SSR and the Bukharan PSR were disbanded on October 27, 1924, and in their place came the Union republics of Turkmen SSR and Uzbek SSR. The latter contained the Tajik ASSR until December 1929 when it too became a full Union republic, the Tajik SSR. The RSFSR retained the newly formed Kara-Kirghiz and the Kara-Kalpak Autonomous Oblasts. The latter was part of the Kirgiz, then the Kazak ASSR until 1930, when it was directly subordinated to Moscow.
Bashkir ASSR – Formed on March 23, 1919 from several northern districts of the Orenburg Guberniya populated by Bashkirs. On October 11, 1990, it declared its sovereignty, as the Bashkir SSR, which was renamed in 1992 the Republic of Bashkortostan.
Tatar ASSR – Formed on May 27, 1920 on the territory of the western two thirds of the Kazan Governorate populated by Tatars. On October 30, 1990, declared sovereignty as the Republic of Tatarstan and on October 18, 1991 it declared its independence. The Russian constitutional court overturned the declaration on March 13, 1992. In February 1994, a separate agreement was reached with Moscow on the status of Tatarstan as an associate state in Russia with confederate status.
Kirgiz ASSR Formed on August 26, 1920, from the Ural, Turgay, Semipalatinsk Oblasts, and parts of Transcaspia, Bukey Horde and Orenburg Guberniya populated by Kirgiz-Kaysaks (former name of Kazakh people). Further enlarged in 1921 upon gaining land from Omsk Guberniya and again in 1924 from parts of Jetysui Guberniya and Syr Darya and Samarkand Oblasts. On 19 April 1925 renamed as the Kazak ASSR (see below)
Mountain ASSR Formed on January 20, 1921, after the Bolshevik Red Army evicted the short-lived Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus. Initially composed of several national districts; one-by-one these left the republic until November 7, 1924, when the remains of the republic was partitioned into the Ingush Autonomous Oblast, the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and the Sunzha Cossack district (all subordinates to the North Caucasus Kray).
Dagestan ASSR – Formed on January 20, 1921, from the former Dagestan Oblast. On September 17 1991, it declared sovereignty as the Dagestan SSR.
Crimean ASSR Formed on October 18, 1921, on the territory of Crimean peninsula, following the Red Army's eviction of Baron Wrangel's army, ending the Russian Civil War in Europe. On May 18, 1944, it was reduced to the status of Oblast, alongside the deportation of the Crimean Tatars, as collective punishment for alleged collaboration with the Nazi occupation regime in Taurida Subdistrict. On February 19, 1954, it was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR. Re-established on February 12 1991, it declared sovereignty on September 4 of that year. On May 5 1992, it declared independence as the Republic of Crimea, on May 13; the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine overturned the declaration, but compromised on an Autonomous Republic of Crimea within Ukraine. After the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, an internationally disputed referendum and Russian military intervention, Crimea was annexed by Russia in March 2014.
Yakut ASSR – Formed on February 16 1922 upon the elevation of the Yakut Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. On September 27, 1990, it declared sovereignty as the Yakut-Sakha Soviet Socialist Republic. From December 21, 1991, it has been known as the Republic of Sakha (Yakutia).
Buryat ASSR – Formed on March 30, 1923 as due to merger of the Mongol-Buryat Autonomous Oblast of the RSFSR and the Buryat-Mongol Autonomous Oblast of the Far Eastern Republic. Until 7 July 1958 – Mongol-Buryat ASSR. On March 27, 1991 it became the Republic of Buryatia.
Karelian ASSR – Formed on July 23, 1923 when the Karelian Labor Commune was integrated into the RSFSR's administrative structure. On March 31, 1940, it was elevated into a full Union republic as the Karelo-Finnish SSR. On July 16, 1956, it was downgraded in status to that of an ASSR and re-subordinated to RSFSR. It declared sovereignty on October 13 1991 as the Republic of Karelia.
Volga German ASSR – Formed on December 19, 1924, upon elevation of the Volga German Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. On August 28, 1941, upon the deportation of Volga Germans to Kazakhstan, the ASSR was disbanded. The territory was partitioned between the Saratov and Stalingrad Oblasts.
Kazak ASSR was formed on April 19, 1925, when the first Kirgiz ASSR was renamed and partitioned. Upon the ratification of the new Soviet constitution, the ASSR was elevated into a full Union Republic on December 3, 1936. On October 25, 1990, it declared sovereignty and on December 16, 1991 its independence as the Republic of Kazakhstan.
Chuvash ASSR – Formed on April 21, 1925 upon the elevation of the Chuvash Autonomous Olbast into an ASSR. It declared sovereignty on October 26 1990 as the Chuvash SSR.
Kirghiz ASSR was formed on February 1, 1926 upon elevation of the Kirghiz Autonomous Oblast. Upon the ratification of the new Soviet constitution, the ASSR was elevated into a full Union Republic on December 3, 1936. On December 12, 1990, it declared sovereignty as the Republic of Kyrgyzstan and on August 31, 1991 its independence.
Kara-Kalpak ASSR – Formed on March 20, 1932 upon elevation of the Kara-Kalpak Autonomous Oblast into the Kara-Kalpak ASSR; from December 5 1936 a part of the Uzbek SSR. In 1964, it was renamed the Karakalpak ASSR. It declared sovereignty on December 14, 1990.
Mordovian ASSR – Formed on December 20, 1934 upon the elevation of Mordovian Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. It declared sovereignty on December 13, 1990 as the Mordovian SSR. Since January 25, 1991 it has been known as the Republic of Mordovia.
Udmurt ASSR was formed on December 28, 1934 upon the elevation of Udmurt Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. It declared sovereignty on September 20, 1990. Since October 11, 1991 it has been known as the Udmurt Republic.
Kalmyk ASSR was formed on October 20 1935 upon the elevation of Kalmyk Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. On December 27, 1943, upon the deportation of the Kalmyks, the ASSR was disbanded and split between the newly established Astrakhan Oblast and parts adjoined to Rostov Oblast, Krasnodar Krai, and Stavropol Krai. On January 9, 1957, Kalmyk Autonomous Oblast was re-established in its present borders, first as a part of Stavropol Krai and from July 19, 1958 as a part of the Kalmyk ASSR. On October 18, 1990, it declared sovereignty as the Kalmyk SSR.
Kabardino-Balkar ASSR – Formed on 5 December 1936, upon the departure of the Kabardino-Balkar Autonomous Oblast from the North Caucasus Kray. After the deportation of the Balkars on 8 April 1944, the republic is renamed as Kabardin ASSR and parts of its territory transferred to Georgian SSR, upon the return of the Balkars, the KBASSR is re-instated on 9 January 1957. On 31 January 1991, the republic declared sovereignty as the Kabardino-Balkar SSR, and from 10 March 1992 – Kabardino-Balkarian Republic.
Northern Ossetian ASSR – Formed on 5 December 1936, upon the disbandment of the North Caucasus Kray, and its constituent North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast was raised into an ASSR. Declared sovereignty on 26 December 1990 as the North Ossetian SSR.
Chechen-Ingush ASSR – Formed on 5 December 1936, when the North Caucausus Kray was disestablished and its constituent Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Oblast was elevated into an ASSR and subordinated to Moscow. Following the en masse deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, on 7 March 1944, the ChIASSR was disbanded, and the Grozny Okrug was temporarily administered by Stavropol Kray until the 22 March, when the territory was portioned between North Ossetian and Dagestan ASSRs, and the Georgian SSR. The remaining land was merged with Stavropol Krays Kizlyar district and organised as Grozny Oblast, which existed until 9 January 1957, when the ChIASSR was re-established, though only the southern border's original shape was retained. Declared sovereignty on 27 November 1990 as the Chechen-Ingush Republic. On 8 June 1991, the 2nd Chechen National Congress proclaimed a separate Chechen-Republic (Noxchi-Cho), and on 6 September, began a coup which overthrew the Soviet local government. De facto, all authority passed to the self-proclaimed government which was renamed as the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria in early 1993. In response, the western Ingush districts after a referendum on 28 November 1991, were organised into an Ingush Republic which was officially established on 4 June 1992, by decree of Russian President as the Republic of Ingushetia. The same decree de jure created a Chechen republic, although it would be established only on 3 June 1994 and carry out partial governance during the First Chechen War. The Khasavyurt Accord would again suspend the government on 15 November 1996. The present Chechen Republic government was re-established on 15 October 1999.
Komi ASSR – Formed on 5 December 1936 upon the elevation of the Komi (Zyryan) Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. Declared sovereignty on 23 November 1990 as the Komi SSR. From 26 May 1992 – the Republic of Komi.
Mari ASSR – Formed on 5 December 1936 upon the elevation of the Mari Autonomous Oblast into an ASSR. Declared Sovereignty on 22 December 1990 as the Mari Soviet Socialist Republic (Mari El).
Tuva ASSR – Formed on 10 October 1961 when the Tuva Autonomous Oblast was elevated[by whom?] into an ASSR. On 12 December 1990 declared sovereignty as the Soviet Republic of Tyva.
Gorno-Altai ASSR was formed on October 25, 1990, when Gorno-Altai Autonomous Oblast declared sovereignty; since July 3, 1991 it has been known as the Gorno-Altai SSR.
Karachayevo-Cherkessian ASSR was formed on November 17, 1990, when Karachay-Cherkess Autonomous Oblast was elevated into an ASSR and, instead of Stavropol Krai, subordinated directly to the RSFSR. It declared sovereignty on July 3, 1991 as the Karachay-Cherkess SSR.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:54 AM
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a reply to: kitzik




I'm using available wikipedia articles that are not edited by Putin, so stop this ad hominem attacks.


The problem with what your using is this...


This article does not cite any references or sources


I also see this has been edited in May of 2015.


This page was last modified on 14 May 2015, at 06:26.


How do you know it wasn't edited by the Russian government...as there is no sources or references to back what is said on the wiki page.

Seems there would be at least one reference or source for this.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 04:56 AM
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a reply to: kitzik




And, where this contradicting what I said ?


Well you said what was said was wrong and I showed you it isn't.

And how about the source for that?



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 05:02 AM
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a reply to: kitzik




Crimean ASSR Formed on October 18, 1921, on the territory of Crimean peninsula, following the Red Army's eviction of Baron Wrangel's army, ending the Russian Civil War in Europe. On May 18, 1944, it was reduced to the status of Oblast, alongside the deportation of the Crimean Tatars, as collective punishment for alleged collaboration with the Nazi occupation regime in Taurida Subdistrict.


So in all of that this is what you have for proof?

Seems you missed alot of what happened between those two dates...why?



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 05:02 AM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I'm arguing that Crimea wasn't independent state from 1921 till Nazi invasion instead it was part of RSFSR.
Your friend dragondir said that Crimea Russian only 8 years from 1921, this is false. You can check thousands of documents from that era proving my point.
If you can show me opposite, do this.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 05:04 AM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h




Seems you missed alot of what happened between those two dates...why?



I didn't missed anything , all those past comments I'm arguing that Crimean Autonomous Republic was part of RSFSR from 1921.
Similarly like later from 1992 it was part of Ukraine.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 05:35 AM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
you can't keep going back in history and use that because there was always somebody there before you.



Very true. We need to forget about previous ownership and let Russia get on with it. Sevastopol has been Russian as long as north America has been the USA. The Russian Black Sea fleet isn't going anywhere soon
Indeed Ukraine itself isn't going anywhere soon. It will always be bordered by Russia and intertwined with its neighbour whatever outside influences attempt. The Russians run the show now........ Please get over it



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 05:51 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter




Indeed Ukraine itself isn't going anywhere soon.


I have great doubts about the future of Ukraine. I think it will be dissolved and partitioned between Poland, Hungary, Russia.

About the third of current Ukraine will stay as independent state or none at all.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 06:12 AM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: dragonridr
you can't keep going back in history and use that because there was always somebody there before you.



Very true. We need to forget about previous ownership and let Russia get on with it. Sevastopol has been Russian as long as north America has been the USA. The Russian Black Sea fleet isn't going anywhere soon
Indeed Ukraine itself isn't going anywhere soon. It will always be bordered by Russia and intertwined with its neighbour whatever outside influences attempt. The Russians run the show now........ Please get over it



So in your world it's ok for Russia to invade it's neighbors and the rest of the world should just get over it.And you wonder why countries flock to NATO FOR Protection. It's exactly that attitude that Russians are somehow superior to others. Russian nationalism is incredibly dangerous. It's THE Same attitude that swept through Germany before world war 2. Look at the statements we hear out of the Kremlin. They reserve the right to protect ethnic Russians in any country. Hitler said the same thing and used it as an excuse to invade poland. Just like then there were no Germans I'm danger in Poland it was an excuse. Putin has followed Hitler To t He letter. Even staged a false flag as an excuse for invasion. He's removed independent media in Russia just like Hitler. Hitler was a fascist so is Putin there is no diffrence in the twos stance of the world.

And sadly history is repeating itself the US has gone into isolation and tired of war. Just like before and Europe is attempting to handle it. Though oddly with a strange twist Francois hollande is playing the role of Churchill. Who ever thought the French would be the realists. Like his statement just a coupleasure of days ago.

"If we don't find not just a compromise but a lasting peace agreement, we know perfectly well what the scenario will be. It has a name, it's called war," Hollande told journalists in the city of Tulle in central France.

So just like last time Europe is approaching a conflict and the US is plugging it's ears and trying to pretend it isn't happening. Just like last time I see a scenario where Europe ends up in direct conflict with Russia. The US will try to stay out of it once again this will last up to the point that the battle moves from a non NATO country to a NATO one. And then it's 50 50 to go nuclear. All because Russia can't leave it's neighbors alone and chooses to bully them financially and militarily.

The other major diffrence is the US doesn't have to build up forces they have them meaning they can hit hard from the start. Russia 20th non nuclear option could last maybe 4 months. And there is the danger their only option is to launch nukes. This is why Putin is playing a dangerous game and people that support his actions bring us one step closer to the end game.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 06:27 AM
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Totally agree. Russia already has taken control of much of its Russian regions, a few more to come. Poland will get its bit back too, Hungary as you say will probably take some. Ukraine as Putin once said is not a real country and now we are seeing the reality of this. It is the Iraq of Europe, you can't expec people of different language and religion to rub along forever. They will always go their own way and nothing is forever, evrything changes sometime. The only prize to be decided is Odessa, very strategic and mixed too. I bet Vlads got his eye on Odessa.



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 06:37 AM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
The other major diffrence is the US doesn't have to build up forces they have them meaning they can hit hard from the start. Russia 20th non nuclear option could last maybe 4 months.


Russia is the biggest country on Planet Earth by a mile my friend. It can last longer than four months. It has resources that are the envy of every nation on this planet. Russia will last the course just like USA will (assuming they have the stomach for it) and will take heavy casualties where EU and USA bitch at home when they lose a few thousand and the people won't back more foreign adventures. I'm no pro Russia fan boy, not at all. I just see the way they have been treated since 1991 and dismembered and pushed around and surrounded by the West and sort of feel sorry for the. I'm a Brit and we support the underdog. Maybe Russia has its faults but it also has its pride that was destroyed in the 90's and now is back on its feet again and wants some influence in what was and is still its back yard. Good on them

edit on 21-6-2015 by ufoorbhunter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2015 @ 07:44 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter


It is the Iraq of Europe, you can't expec people of different language and religion to rub along forever. They will always go their own way and nothing is forever, evrything changes sometime.


Picts, Celts, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Normans... no wonder Britain is a failed state. Yes, Putin has his eye on Odessa; you're proof he has his eye on London, as well. Putin's goal is nothing less than world conquest:



en.wikipedia.org...



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