Quantum mechanics needs no consciousness (and the other way around)

originally posted by: HotMale
So now you do at least agree that availability of path info matters.

So do you also agree that there has to be something to which it matters? You must.

Of course.

So if availabilty of info matters, it can only matter to something that is conscious.

This is obviously a conclusion you'd like to reach for some reason, which the evidence does not support. The availability can be created by the interaction of two non-conscious things, so that interaction is what matters.

No they seem to argue that if information is available, but not KNOWN to to the observer, the interference pattern still collapses, and that therefore, the role of consciousness is disproven.

The actual experimenters are saying that it is AVAILABILTY of that info to the observer is what matters. Big diffference.

Available means available. You're inferring in one case available means a conscious observers knows the available information but you haven't proven that. And if that's not what you mean, then there's no discrepancy, it's available but not known to any conscious observer, like the number in the sealed envelope that hasn't been opened.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Of course.

To what does it matter then?

This is obviously a conclusion you'd like to reach for some reason, which the evidence does not support. The availability can be created by the interaction of two non-conscious things, so that interaction is what matters.

Wow, denial much? Why even talk about availabilty then? You are saying here that availability actually doesn't matter.

If interference pattern collapse is caused by interaction with a measuring device, why are experimenters even talking about path info availability. Why are you even agreeing that availability matters?

Available means available. You're inferring in one case available means a conscious observers knows the available information but you haven't proven that.

What? I am saying that availabilty matters. If the info is available, the interference pattern collapses.

If the info was available, but is made unavailable the interference pattern doesn't collapse.

In both cases there was an interaction with a measuring device. The only variable for interference pattern collapse is availability of the info.

It does not matter if the info is actually known to the observer, what matters that it is potentially known by the observer. Otherwise there would be a possibility that reality would not line up with the observations, and the program will not allow for that.

This is shown in experiment after experiment.

Again I ask, available to who or what?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

You have simply put yourself into the box of Quantum Consciousness. You said:

So they explain the "which-path" information is available but that it has not been registered in the consciousness of the observer, because no actual attempt was made to extract the information.

Man that's a big box!!

Your statement supports what has been said by people like Penrose and Hameroff but it goes even deeper. What people have been trying to explain to you is which path information is more important than measurement or an interaction with any devices.

How do particles know when which path information is available? What you're saying is that consciousness is fundamental because which path information is available.

Look at the entanglement swapping and delayed choice quantum eraser.

Entangled particles are sent to Alice and Bob but they haven't observed which measurement has occurred. The particles were still detected information was just not known to Alice or Bob. At a time later Victor measures his particle and information is known. The particles with Alice and Bob are correlated with Victors future measurement.

How do the particles know that which path information wasn't available to Alice and Bob and how do they know Victors measurement when it hasn't even occurred yet?

This is the same with the quantum delayed choice experiment. This video lays it out pretty well and uses quotes from the actual Authors of these experiments.



This is what has been being said but you have to get unstuck from materialism to grasp it. I think you were the one who said it took you years to understand particles were not like marbles so maybe this is just the same situation.

This goes to the heart of QM. The reason you have weirdness in QM is because people try to reduce the particles final state with it's interaction with a measuring device.

This isn't the case. The final state of the particle is determined by whether which path information is available. This is why we speak in terms of probabilities and you can't predict which measurement will occur just like you can say a DVD player can measure the DVD it's playing but what DVD will be played by a Conscious Observer can't be predicted.

The Brain is just an advanced measuring device and QM tells us there's a difference between measurement and measuring device. Measurement is determined by whether which path information is available. The measurement just registers this result in the environment. This is strictly a non physical process based on knowing which path information.

We see this with the subjective universe theory which was explained using the math of Quantum Theory.

In his paper, "Non-computability of Consciousness," Daegene Song proves human consciousness cannot be computed. Song arrived at his conclusion through quantum computer research in which he showed there is a unique mechanism in human consciousness that no computing device can simulate.

"Among conscious activities, the unique characteristic of self-observation cannot exist in any type of machine," Song explained. "Human thought has a mechanism that computers cannot compute or be programmed to do."

Song's work also shows consciousness is not like other physical systems like neurons, atoms or galaxies. "If consciousness cannot be represented in the same way all other physical systems are represented, it may not be something that arises out of a physical system like the brain," said Song. "The brain and consciousness are linked together, but the brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness is something altogether different and separate. The math doesn't lie."

www.prnewswire.com...



So by your own words you condemn materialism to the dust heap of history.

Again, the reason people see QM as strange and counterintuitive is because they're trying to reduce it to the material. That makes no sense. The reason you can have a particle interact with a measuring device and the wave function evolves according to Schrodinger's equation yet you still can't predict what measurements will occur only the probabilities of them occurring is because knowing when which path information is available is more important than the interaction of a particle with a measuring device.

a reply to: neoholographic

This is fun and our efforts have not been fruitless.

Step by little step our materialists are travelling into the realm of consciousness. They just don't realize it yet themselves, or do they?

Even in their "rebuttals" they are now making statements that actually support the very notion.

Like I said before, give it time and it will be seen as self evident.

a reply to: HotMale

What did you base your claims on originally before you found this, and why can´t you find that information again?

My original claims were based off my own knowledge of how QM works and simple logic. I haven't studied QM in several years so my memory on many things is fuzzy. Also I don't think any serious scientist would even bother trying the setup I proposed because they already know what the result will be.

No, it collapses based on availabilty of info, it doesn't matter wether we actually look or not, its about having the potential of having that knowledge.

I do not disagree with this statement, and it's clear to me now where our disagreement lies. In a double slit setup which records the path information and then erases it, there was a stage in that process where we had the potential to look and see which path it went through. Just because we erase it without looking doesn't negate the fact that we had the potential to know at one point in the process. Since we had the potential to know, that must mean the path data was there to look at if we made that decision, thus the wave function must have collapsed to produce the path data. Unless you accept the idea that our decision to look at the data is what ultimately collapsed the wave-function then there is no reason consciousness needs to play any role in that process. It is not so much the "availability" of the path data as it is the existence of the path data, whether we have the tools to make it available to us or not.

I should also mention, because I know you'll probably bring this up, in the quantum eraser experiments where the interference pattern is seemingly recovered by erasing the path data, there is actually no point in the process where we had the potential to know the path data. The wiki page on the quantum eraser experiment which you quoted earlier explains how the experiment actually works in detail. It says that since the first photon is forced to have a diagonal polarization, that forces its entangled partner to have the same polarization. This means there is a 50% chance that the circular polarizers will output clockwise polarized light and a 50% chance that they will output counter-clockwise polarized light. Since the result at the second detector will be a random mix of those two polarization states there is no possible way to determine the path data and there never was a point in the process where we had the potential to.

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: neoholographic

This is fun and our efforts have not been fruitless.

Step by little step our materialists are travelling into the realm of consciousness. They just don't realize it yet themselves, or do they?

Even in their "rebuttals" they are now making statements that actually support the very notion.

Like I said before, give it time and it will be seen as self evident.

Exactly, they don't realize they're actually arguing in favor of Quantum Consciousness and Consciousness being something fundamental to reality.

a reply to: neoholographic

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Looks like a nerve was hit.

a reply to: HotMale

A nerve was hit the moment you and him posted your lies.

The question is, did your lies exist before the nerve was hit?

originally posted by: HotMale
Looks like a nerve was hit.

I think God wants me to get my account banned so I am motivated to not waste time with you scum. So # you # you # you # you # you # you # you # you # you # you

You dumb piece of # liar... you piece of child feces wrapped up in a piece of # from a retarded gorrilla, you faggity #ing retard piece of scum liar satan faggot #ing piece of ill # #ing retarded #. I hate you as much as hitler, you satanic mindless drone of a retarded fart sucking piece of scum licking #y scum sucking fag #er retarded # smear of a # smear on # smeared on # you #ing fag.

Enjoy your non knowledge

originally posted by: HotMale
Looks like a nerve was hit.

Dishonest, nincompoop, liar, con artist, phony, sham, quack, faker, false, loon, dummy, evil, satan, illusion, denial, psychotic, dumb, stupid, child, scum

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originally posted by: HotMale
Looks like a nerve was hit.

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originally posted by: HotMale
Looks like a nerve was hit.

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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: HotMale
Looks like a nerve was hit.

I think God wants me to get my account banned so I am motivated to not waste time with you scum. So # you # you # you # you # you # you # you # you # you # you

You dumb piece of # liar... you piece of child feces wrapped up in a piece of # from a retarded gorrilla, you faggity #ing retard piece of scum liar satan faggot #ing piece of ill # #ing retarded #. I hate you as much as hitler, you satanic mindless drone of a retarded fart sucking piece of scum licking #y scum sucking fag #er retarded # smear of a # smear on # smeared on # you #ing fag.

Enjoy your non knowledge

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: HotMale
Looks like a nerve was hit.

Dishonest, nincompoop, liar, con artist, phony, sham, quack, faker, false, loon, dummy, evil, satan, illusion, denial, psychotic, dumb, stupid, child, scum

Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum Scum

This is sweet.

a reply to: HotMale

As true as all that is, and as much as you deserve worse.

I must say sorry and thank you. For being the Evil and Falsity which is responsible for motivating me to leave this site and stop wasting my time with Evil and Falsity. So thank you, it is in this way which the Devil contributes to Gods work.

a reply to: ImaFungi

Ok, one last advice, seek professional help.