Should your freedom of speech protect you from the consequences?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Not if you can make a good case that the firing was because of race. People try to use excuses all the time in order to get away with firing someone because of race. They'll use performance, attitude, even clothing as their official reasons. But there are ways to prove the real reason why someone was fired.

Are there? Let's go back to the bus driver in the OP:

A county school bus driver in Georgia was fired in 2013 for posting about a hungry student passenger who claimed he didn’t have enough money to get lunch at school. “As a tax payer … I would rather feed a child than to give food stamps to a crack head,” the driver wrote. School board officials didn’t take the critique well, and in fact found no proof that the boy went without lunch. County school board policy stipulated that “disciplinary procedures” apply to employees who post on social networking sites and cause disruption to the instructional environment. The bus driver refused to recant and apologize, so he was fired.

How did his post "cause disruption to the instructional environment?" Did it affect how he drove the bus? Did his post cause children to miss school because they didn't want to ride the bus? Did his post have an adverse effect on the children's ability to learn? How many of those children read the bus driver's post? How many cared what he posted?

Should the bus driver have said, "Sorry, I was wrong. I would rather give food stamps to a crack head than feed a child." in an effort to keep his job? Should an employer be able to force a person to lie in order to keep their job?

It's pretty obvious that the bus driver's comment had no real "disruptive influence" to the "instructional environment," but that was the stated reason for the firing. Even if the school bus driver could afford to hire a good lawyer, how could he prove that he was fired because of race, or sexual orientation, or that maybe the guy was approaching retirement age and the county was looking to save some money by not paying out on his pension.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

What can I tell ya - you criticize your employer in public like that, and you can get your butt fired. It happens all the time. Why should it be any different for this guy? If he had a real problem, why didn't he simply call a meeting with the principal or school superintendent and discuss his issues with them personally?

If you were an employer and one of your employees posted something on Facebook trashing you, I think it might have an affect on your relationship with that employee from that point on, disrupting all kinds of things. Don't you?

Don't go on Facebook and publicly criticize the people who give you a paycheck. It's that simple.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: VictorVonDoom



Don't go on Facebook and publicly criticize the people who give you a paycheck. It's that simple.

Then you give the people who provide paychecks extreme power. This is how corrupt governments are formed - by giving jobs and contracts to supporters.

It's actually illegal to fire a government worker for political views (there are a few exceptions for high ranking people).

originally posted by: Daughter2


It's actually illegal to fire a government worker for political views (there are a few exceptions for high ranking people).

I don't think he got fired because he was a Republican or Democrat or Libertarian, because he has probably always been whatever political affiliation without repercussion for as long as he has been employed. He didn't get fired because he met privately with the school to discuss his issue. He got fired because he critized his employer in a very public way.

a reply to: kaylaluv

But he didn't criticize his employer. He simply stated a preference as to how his tax dollars were spent. I'm guessing it's not up to the school board to write the county's budget.

I don't have Facebook or any other social media besides ATS. If I had an employee trashing me on Facebook, I most likely wouldn't be aware of it. But if I was, it wouldn't bother me if they post what they believe is true. I try to live an honest life, and I'm not ashamed or embarrassed by anything I do. Except my pool playing on some nights.

I would say that if the school board had a problem with someone saying that they would rather feed children than give food stamps to crackheads, then that school board has bigger problems than what is posted on social media. Why would the school board have a problem with what the bus driver said? Would they rather give food stamps to crackheads than feed children?

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

He implied that the school should have found a way to feed this kid, regardless of what he had in his lunch account. You are focusing on that one sentence (about the crackheads) as if that was the one sentence that got him fired. What makes you think that?

I don't know if you have ever been a manager. I have, and I have had personal experience with certain employees with attitude problems criticize me to my other employees. This gets all the other employees, who might have been just fine before, all riled up. This causes all kinds of problem and disruptions for a manager. And this isn't even addressing the whole Facebook situation, where someone might have hundreds of "friends", including some influential people. And what if what the employee is saying is inaccurate? Now the manager's reputation is damaged unfairly. This can cause quite a bit of disruption.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

He implied that the school should have found a way to feed this kid, regardless of what he had in his lunch account. You are focusing on that one sentence (about the crackheads) as if that was the one sentence that got him fired. What makes you think that?

I thought that because that is what the original post had. Following the link in the OP and reading the bus driver's full post I can see that he also believes that it would be better to feed a kid who doesn't have 40 cents rather than throw the left over food away. Again, I don't really see that as a criticism of anyone. Seems like a good idea to me, why would the school board have a problem with it? I guess when the school board asked for a retraction and apology, the bus driver could have lied and said, "I'm sorry, I was wrong. It's better for the school to throw away leftover food than to feed a kid who couldn't scrounge up 40 cents." Then he could have kept his job.

I don't know if you have ever been a manager. I have, and I have had personal experience with certain employees with attitude problems criticize me to my other employees. This gets all the other employees, who might have been just fine before, all riled up. This causes all kinds of problem and disruptions for a manager. And this isn't even addressing the whole Facebook situation, where someone might have hundreds of "friends", including some influential people. And what if what the employee is saying is inaccurate? Now the manager's reputation is damaged unfairly. This can cause quite a bit of disruption.

Yeah, I've been a manager. Before that I was a Navy petty officer. That's where I picked up the philosophy, "It's a sailor's right to complain." When I was doing a job, I might complain, but I got the job done. If I was supervising, I didn't care if someone complained, as long as the job got done.

As a civilian, I was the same way. Complain all you want, just get the job done. My favorite way of dealing with problem employees went something like this: "This problem you are having, is it a personal problem or a professional problem? If it's a personal problem, keep it out of the workplace. If it's a professional problem, then deal with it like a professional."

As a small business owner, I don't see them as complaints. Somebody has a problem or an idea, it's up to me to see to it the job is done in a timely manner for a profit. If there is a problem, I fix it. If there is a more efficient way to do something, I make it happen. I don't care what someone posts on social media, the quality of the work coming out of my shop says all that needs to be said.

Of course, if someone is saying something that is not true, then that's slander, which is a legal matter.

Should CNN's speech on the fake news. . . should any media outlet be protected from the consequences of their speech?

Should your freedom of speech protect you from the consequences?

Of course, the answer is 'no'. The concept of 'freedom of speech' is often misinterpreted by many as to meaning that one can say whatever one likes and not be taken to task for it. That is not what is meant by 'freedom of speech'. Its meaning pertains to political thoughts and statements, and to the rebuttal of 'ideas' and 'ideologies'. It does not mean one can make statements directly about a person's genetic make up or their race. You can argue against culture and ideology, but not against the person directly. You cannot make statements that could lead to the incitement of others to act in a harmful way against the target of your vitriol.