Programmers...Could it be done in 6 Days if Virtual Reality?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Barcs
If the universe is a program then 99% of it is wasted space.

or 99% waiting to be explored.

That would be another possibility, the long term need of the people to explore, the world is feeling small now.

originally posted by: Thorneblood
a reply to: Krazysh0t
I just know i could.

Go on then.

a reply to: CynConcepts

I was thinking, if relating to ancient texts and assuming we are in a virtual reality it will have a creator. Now in the texts the creator said he liked to walk in the garden with his creations, he enjoyed this.

If there were others working on the project and there was disagreement as to how the system should be worked, the old Gods that struggled for domination and fought with each other could have been here as avatars also walking among us.

It could either be that they interact here for entertainment or they like feeling godly in a virtual reality where they are all powerful. Relating again to a game, if my mercenary fighters and other non player characters in my game had some free will it could become very interesting, them not knowing I was not like them but an avatar...or letting them know by showing my powers.

originally posted by: Thorneblood
In fact, i did attempt to explain it to you but you chose to ignore it in favor of your own belittling line of arguments in which you repeatedly insult me. And yet you believe i am the one losing the argument?

Belittling? I'm not the one that responded to every argument against the idea by saying that they lack imagination or responding to multiple paragraphs with one liners. Plus I addressed that post already. I'll do it again, with more detail so you do not miss it this time and use it as an attack.

One of the first mistakes I see being made in many of these posts is the notion of programming all of this manually. This form of creation as you seem to see it, well it's extremely limted. As the OP pointed out, using pre-established patterns and god like knowledge there would be no need to enter the formulas into some vast unintelligible language. You just need to know it, understand it and sort of imagine it being where you want it to be.

Again, you refer to the assumptions in the OP that I disagree with. You are assuming that all of these pre programmed patterns just happen to already exist and neglect to acknowledge that they would need to be created in the first place. How could you not include the programming of these so called patterns and templates as part of creation of the universe? You also assign yourself godlike properties and claim you know how to program a universe. It's a self defeating argument. Well duh, give anybody infinite knowledge and power, and obviously they could do anything. The problem is we are talking virtual reality, not omnipotent creator. That is just invoking creationism. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you are disguising creationism under the guise of "programming".

Think of the Matrix, think of Neo. Think of what we really define as VR, a fully immersive reality that intercepts the signals transmitted by your brain and causes appropriate actions in a controlled environment. If your brain is the controller, the keyboard, the mouse, then all that would be required to program a reality on this level would be your own damn mind.

I see nothing but assumptions and what ifs here.

You chose to ignore, ranting on about how im using magic and creationism to circumvent your agrument when in fact the whole basis of the conversation is magic and creationism as pointed out by the OP's initial post here..

Nobody's ranting here. Just stating the facts. The OP made 3 "points" and they were all assumptions. The original post didn't say anything about assuming the ideas are true or to not argue against them. If that's what he meant, then it wasn't very well articulated. In fact I don't see anything tangible about the OP at all. Programming a virtual reality is not the same an all powerful being creating the universe by saying "let there be light". If you can't see the difference between the 2 scenarios and do not realize that they are completely different concepts, then I don't know what to tell you.

Then having taken him up into the mountain, he hid him in a cloud and took him out of all earthly things... and he gave him a new birth as if he were a child in the womb... and revealed to him all that he had done in making the world in six days, showing him in six other days the making of the world, performing in his presence the work of each day.... (Cosmas 3.13)[30]

When Philo described the apotheosis of Moses on Sinai he said that he entered the darkness where God was; ‘...the unseen, invisible, incorporeal, and archetypal essence of all existing things and he beheld what is hidden from the sight of mortal nature’ (Moses 1.158). This is what the Qumran texts describe as the raz nihyeh, (4Q300, 417), what 1 Peter describes as ‘the things into which angels long to look’ (1 Pet.1.12).

This is supposed to justify your point or something? They are baseless quotes that cannot be verified.

Considering that many of the concepts we are talking about here are most often used in video gaming, and yes that is my field, then to answer your mundane questions. I would use procedural generation for the universe, applying various statistical models and equations that i have learned or have access to. Which, while not complete, is human and obvious. I'm also a big fan of using concepts from Emergent Gameplay to invoke the various creative choices some players make when dealing with how to solve problems.

But there is NO universal pattern or model. That's what I've been trying to say. You are just making that up, as if there is a way to program consciousness or cause chemical reactions. It is chaotic out there. Debris is all over the place. All of that debris would need to be programmed to emerge exactly as it is today, but it is impossible to use computer code to describe physical realities or create consciousness.

As I am sure you are aware one of the big parts of being God, especially in the biblical sense, is infinite knowledge. The all knowing mind. Which, if i possessed, would include such things as the laws of physics, the nature of consciousness and well...everything.

If that's the case, then it is clearly about creationism and not programming virtual reality.

So when God made the heavens and the earth he didn't just throw up some pretty 3d assets (Also one of my skills) he invoked magic and yes IMAGINATION to place the stars in the sky and apply the basic programming for their function. He sparked conscious by giving us not only the light of the stars, but the light of intellect and knowledge, the spark of creation and humanity that makes us everything we are.

We are moving further and further away from reality. Why would he need imagination when he has infinite knowledge and power? You accused others in this thread of having no imagination because they considered that it's all assumptions and there are very tough hurdles to overcome in order to do something like that.

Instead of completely excluding God from the argument and focusing on the mundane reality of programming in the modern era, try to invoke the sense of awe and wonder you feel when you actually do get inspired by reality or gaming or whatever. Look at the vast emptiness of the universe that you see as wasted space and ask yourself the simplest of questions.

If I were a God, how would I fill the heavens?

That gets us nowhere. Anybody can pretend they know how it works or how it went down. In reality we are ALL equally clueless about the cause of the universe. I mean you keep bringing up god, but if he is all powerful and all knowing then why would he even need templates or algorithms. He could just snap his fingers and create everything. The problem is, that's just an appeal to magic. You are stacking the deck by claiming that we have to assume that the programmer is an all powerful being. Obviously an all powerful being could create a universe in days. Nobody's arguing that. They are arguing about whether it actually happened or not, and how it could be done or programmed. f you guys are just talking about god, then why even bring up VR? Is it programming or infinite power? Infinite power would mean a physical created universe. A virtual universe would indicate programming.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: Barcs

Are you trying to say they are NEVER used? I don't buy it, sorry. If the universe is a program then 99% of it is wasted space.

No of course it is a bad comparison, but we don't yet know how much space (empty space) in the universe is "used". We are both stuck with guessing.

I think it's safe to say that the empty space between stars and planets is NOT used as there is nothing there but debris.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: Barcs

Are you trying to say they are NEVER used? I don't buy it, sorry. If the universe is a program then 99% of it is wasted space.

No of course it is a bad comparison, but we don't yet know how much space (empty space) in the universe is "used". We are both stuck with guessing.

I think it's safe to say that the empty space between stars and planets is NOT used as there is nothing there but debris.

I am waiting...

but my belief is that there is life even there... in space and on every rock and in the alcohol cloud they found in space and the water they found in space "SCIENTISTS DISCOVER THE OLDEST, LARGEST BODY OF WATER IN EXISTENCE—IN SPACE
AROUND A BLACK HOLE 12 BILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY, THERE'S AN ALMOST UNIMAGINABLE VAPOR CLOUD OF WATER—ENOUGH TO SUPPLY AN ENTIRE PLANET'S WORTH OF WATER FOR EVERY PERSON ON EARTH, 20,000 TIMES OVER."
www.fastcompany.com...

a reply to: Char-Lee

I'm not denying that. Life itself hasn't been found outside of earth yet. Maybe it will someday. I believe it is very likely, but I have doubts about it being everywhere. Water doesn't automatically mean life. We've found water on the moon and Mars but no life yet. I'm not saying it's not there, but your argument is very heavily based on assumptions and beliefs. Is Thorne correct in saying that you are talking creationism and not actual programming of code? If that's the case then there is nothing really for me to argue and I apologize for wasting your time. I definitely can't deny that a being with infinite knowledge and power COULD create a universe in whatever time frame he wanted. That point is solid.

a reply to: Barcs

If you guys are just talking about god, then why even bring up VR?

I think the way each of us would define any god and or creator is the issue.

I have no preset notion God could be a creator who is a being of energy who created children through a virtual universe, that being could love us as I as an artist "even" love my creations and it is difficult to see any broken or destroyed.

My purpose is to learn and thinking, I value both of your arguments and you are making me think and look up what I can to read and learn more.

I find it interesting how many texts also including many American Indian creation stories say it was dark in the beginning, The world was lit as though a light was turned on very quickly. Not sure where I am leading with this thought it is just interesting to me.

a reply to: Barcs

your argument is very heavily based on assumptions and beliefs. Is Thorne correct in saying that you are talking creationism and not actual programming of code

Yes indeed I am only able to use my assumptions on much at this point in time.

I was hoping and am happy to have persons with computer knowledge to discuss the possibility of a virtual reality, I have been focused on how ancient texts may apply IF this were the case. Looking at the texts through this particular filter.

Scientists are talking about ancestors creating aVR universe as a historic document basically playing out their history but this feels wrong somehow. In the future if we have computers able to run sentient beings by the millions in a program what would be our purpose in doing so?

If we used an avatar and entered the realm we created, we could do miracles.

originally posted by: Barcs

I think it's safe to say that the empty space between stars and planets is NOT used as there is nothing there but debris.

Nothing there but debris? Scientist are now exploring those spaces now, since they realize there is more there than meets the eye. The planets stars and galaxies are all orbiting based on the effect of these so-called wasted spaces. Scientists are constantly striving to understand the universe on quantum levels. Dark matter is a pseudo name given to that wasted space that cause and effect has shown there is something there unseen at this time. I believe the notion that it is wasted space is no longer considered true, it has purpose.

archive.ncsa.illinois.edu...

genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov... module/Cosmogony/CosmogonyPDF/MilkyWaySurpriseST.pdf

a reply to: Char-Lee

In my opinion the brain is the processor. A CPU works with binary numbers or machine code. You can think of the chemical reactions in the brain as the machine code, and the brain processes the input and the body gives the output. The question is does consciousness arise from these chemicals? The answer to this question appears to be no, otherwise we could mimic the reaction in order to elicit certain emotional or behavioral responses. Rather I think the reactions in the brain are merely correlations with consciousness. You can think of it like this, the brain is the CPU and the chemical reactions are the machine code. The consciousness is the programming language.(Fitting as it must be added by minds ). The machine code and the programming language are not the same thing, but they both correlate together to give off a specific output. In the same way the Brain and all its inner workings correlate together with consciousness to give us the output of personhood that we all experience. That may or may not make sense as they are personal abstractions butt whatever...

Time itself could just be an elaborate illusion which only exists to the characters in the simulation which can be rewound or fast fowarded by those watching the show.

Someday, and a vast conjecture on how long, we will most likely develop a version of a quantum computer that could take on such a simulation task. If we could possibly supply it with an equation that accurately describes the fundamentals for the creation of the universe, a computer like this may instantly produce all possibilities instantaneously.

Therein, one might possibly find a version of the universe that supports their beliefs. That is how wacky quantum mechanics can get, as the concept of impossible really does not exist.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

So Einstein's twin paradox can be solved using the idea of virtual time rather than physical time. You see a virtual reality would be subject to virtual time where each processing cycle is one 'tick' the information below is a great read for programmers:

Objective time should pass inevitably, by its own nature, needing nothing else, but virtual time
depends on processing cycles. In Conway’s Life simulation (Figure), pixels reproduce and die by
program rules. So blobs grow and contract until (often) a steady state is reached. For a pixel entity in a
Life simulation, time is measured by the events that occur to it. Many events constitute (for it) a long
time, while a few events are a short time. Time is the processing cycles experienced, and we measure
time like this in our world, as atomic clocks count atomic events.
Suppose a Life game that usually takes twenty minutes to reach a certain state is run again on a faster
computer, and reaches the same end state in two seconds. Re-running it takes less time in our reality,
but the virtual time doesn’t change, as the same number of events occurred. A being in the simulation,
seeing the same number of events passing, sees the same time passing. The simulation time depends
solely on the number of processing cycles that occur in the
simulation.
If a computer game slows down under load, like say in a big
battle, the player experiences game lag, as the screen slows
down. However from the point of view of an onscreen avatar
nothing changes, as they also slow down. If our world is a virtual
reality we won't in theory see load effects, and indeed relativistic
changes in space-time are undetectable to the parties affected.
However if processing is distributed, as here, people under
different local loads can later compare time differences, e.g. in
Einstein’s twin paradox, a twin travels the universe in a rocket
at near the speed of light and returns a year later to find his
brother an old man of eighty. Neither twin knew their time ran
differently and both still got their allocated number of life
breaths, but one twin's life is nearly done and the other's is just

Source

Ugh.

True AI, Moore's law.

a reply to: Barcs

I'm referring to the passages that claim a "day is as a thousand years" to God. This makes a day an inordinate amount of time, since it is describing what we would consider static, as being dynamic to a higher being... A human day is of course broken up into 24 measured hours.

Don't bother replying to this though, because other posters have already expressed my own thoughts.

originally posted by: mikegrouchy

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: mikegrouchy

how does one insulate the simulation from outside influence?

Would you need to if you were the one creating it? it would really only be your influence right? Unless a virus was introduced?

I know how to start and stop my computer that's about it soooo:-)

We can be fairly sure that our existence here on planet earth circa 2015 is not a simulation because no bot-gold-seller has popped up spamming the place with "Players of Earth, Resurrection rods, only 5000 souls @ Antares trading post." In fact a great deal of the angst present in the poetry of mankind through the ages is aimed at the apparent vast emptiness of the universe and our lack of "visitors" proving there is something else.

Outside influence.

Mike Grouchy

I have to completely disagree with this assessment. Like most things in this reality, I don't believe we can fathom what we don't know. One of those things, is inter-dimensional beings. You say we have no visitors, however I have personal friends and family who have experienced paranormal activity that defies the very notion that we're alone here... I personally feel we are being watched, very closely beyond a very thin veil.

You say our focus is aimed at the vast emptiness of the universe but fail to acknowledge why people have looked into mysticism and spirituality for answers to those questions... You shouldn't be so quick to ignore what is so obvious to others... There's a reason mankind has written about strange happenings throughout its history.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: CynConcepts

I was thinking, if relating to ancient texts and assuming we are in a virtual reality it will have a creator. Now in the texts the creator said he liked to walk in the garden with his creations, he enjoyed this.

There is an interpretation I think is worth considering. If the human was made in the image of God, does this mean we ARE avatars of God? Humans, made in the semblance of God, are how God chose to interact with the creation. The fall seems to indicate that this incarnate creator became lost in the creation and alienated Itself from the creator source. Hence the point of Jesus coming, to lead the people back to this primordial state and lead the way out of our mental dilemma.

Look around and see how unnatural our lives have become, surely we have lost touch with the purposed state of humankind.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

However from the point of view of an onscreen avatar
nothing changes, as they also slow down. If our world is a virtual
reality we won't in theory see load effects, and indeed relativistic
changes in space-time are undetectable to the parties affected.

This is really interesting, our days and years could be so incredibly slow or fast to the time of any creator. So like the book i am reading if the whole system runs really slow to conserve energy and computing power it would not matter in the least unless you were in contact with the outside.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

the brain is the CPU and the chemical reactions are the machine code. The consciousness is the programming language.

Then we would be real and the virtual world created by our minds?