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Police non-response time kills - New Jersey Gun/Carry Permits issue

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posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 08:53 AM
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So here is a case on the opposite end of everyone that is anti-gun that always uses the excuse of "the police should have been called". This shows that it does nothing.

A woman that had been abused previously, had a restraining order against a violent criminal, applied for a gun permit (which was pushed well past the limit of 30 days so she never got it), was murdered by the person she was trying to protect herself from because police did nothing.

This is sickening to me....she was stabbed to death at that....no guns used. Then he goes on to shoot himself at another ex's house. On top of that, even IF she had gotten a gun permit she would not, under NJ law, have been able to have the gun outside her house where she was stabbed to death.

I guess at least the criminal followed the rules and didn't have a gun outside the house....just a knife. And he again followed the rules by only using the gun on himself INSIDE his other ex's house.

So sick of the gun laws in some of the states here....I hope this case will change things in NJ for the better.

Source



Carol Bowne knew her best shot at defending herself from a violent ex was a gun, and not a piece of paper. And it was paperwork that left her unprotected when Michael Eitel showed up at her New Jersey home last week and stabbed her to death, say Second Amendment advocates, who charge local police routinely sit on firearms applications they are supposed to rule on within 30 days.

Bowne, 39, had a restraining order against Eitel when he killed her in her driveway last Wednesday, but she was still waiting for Berlin Township Police Chief Leonard Check to approve the gun permit she had applied for on April 21. Tragically, she had gone to the township police department just two days before her death to check on the status of her languishing application. In another indication of her fear of Eitel, Bowne had recently installed surveillance cameras around her home, and the equipment recorded the 45-year-old ex-con attacking her as she arrived home and got out of her car.

“She should have been granted that permit in a timely matter, especially given her status as a domestic violence victim,” said Evan Nappen, a New Jersey-based attorney who specializes in Second Amendment cases.




posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:01 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


…applied for a gun permit (which was pushed well past the limit of 30 days so she never got it), was murdered by the person she was trying to protect herself from…


There it is. Oh yah, you can have a gun for defense, once you get the permit, once you pay the fee and take the course and afford the firearm, purchase it, survive the waiting period, load it, keep it handy and hope to God you can get to it the one time you might need it during your whole life.

The odds weren't in her favor.

Her rights were definitely "infringed" upon by both the killer and the system. In fact the system enabled the killer.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:06 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Vasa Croe


…applied for a gun permit (which was pushed well past the limit of 30 days so she never got it), was murdered by the person she was trying to protect herself from…


There it is. Oh yah, you can have a gun for defense, once you get the permit, once you pay the fee and take the course and afford the firearm, purchase it, survive the waiting period, load it, keep it handy and hope to God you can get to it the one time you might need it during your whole life.

The odds weren't in her favor.

Her rights were definitely "infringed" upon by both the killer and the system. In fact the system enabled the killer.


Yeah....I find it crazy that the system thinks a piece of paper is going to keep a violent criminal away. Seriously? A restraining order is the answer? I say this mostly because I have had to take one out on a violent criminal and have my entire extended family put on it. The main difference here is that I live in GA and have no worries about carry, and THAT is a huge deterrent that the person named on mine has.

Sad that she tool ALL the steps, restraining order, paying fees, applying for permits, filing reports, even putting in security cameras, and she was still killed.

But I guess the crap lawmakers in this case are happy because HER cameras caught him in the act, AND he killed himself. No work for them and all that were involved are now dead.....how convenient.

Sickening.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:09 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

I can personally attest to this. When I moved to my current home town I applied for a new purchasing permit a few years later.

After months of waiting for, allegedly, my old home town to forward paperwork to my new one, a call and letter from my attorney magically induced them to find and process the paperwork.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:12 AM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe

So sick of the gun laws in some of the states here....I hope this case will change things in NJ for the better.


Well, you know where "hope" got this country for the past 6 years.

Sadly, I don't think this will change anything. How states can have such restrictive gun laws is beyond me. I'm generally an advocate of state's rights, but the 2nd Amendment doesn't only apply to the federal government, it applies to all citizens (as opposed to verbiage like, "The congress shall make no law..."). This is killing guaranteed individual freedom.

Glad I don't live in NJ...



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Vasa Croe

I can personally attest to this. When I moved to my current home town I applied for a new purchasing permit a few years later.

After months of waiting for, allegedly, my old home town to forward paperwork to my new one, a call and letter from my attorney magically induced them to find and process the paperwork.



That just sucks all around. They only do their job when forced to. Hopefully this case will be used to change the laws there for the better. This should not have happened. They expect a person to feel safe with a restraining order, then give no means for which that person can defend themselves. This is a VERY legitimate reason for a person to have a carry permit, and clearly shows that criminals, even without a gun, will kill.

Time for change people.......



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

So sick of the gun laws in some of the states here....I hope this case will change things in NJ for the better.


Well, you know where "hope" got this country for the past 6 years.

Sadly, I don't think this will change anything. How states can have such restrictive gun laws is beyond me. I'm generally an advocate of state's rights, but the 2nd Amendment doesn't only apply to the federal government, it applies to all citizens (as opposed to verbiage like, "The congress shall make no law..."). This is killing guaranteed individual freedom.

Glad I don't live in NJ...


Yeah...I know what you mean. Unfortunately all I can do is "hope" for NJ as I don't live there and can only support from afar.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:15 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

The state police only issue a few hundred carry permits a year.

My friend got one who works with violent youth offenders only after he demonstrated that numerous threats to his life had been made. The average citizen can forget about getting one.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:19 AM
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Too many of the a holes should havbe been locked down for violence againts women. How many times a year do we need to hear about a women getting killed by an ex lover, the justice system is a joke up here in canada.

Violence againts women and children should be met with extreme justice.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Vasa Croe

The state police only issue a few hundred carry permits a year.

My friend got one who works with violent youth offenders only after he demonstrated that numerous threats to his life had been made. The average citizen can forget about getting one.



Maybe someone should push a law that anyone with a violent criminal restraining order should have armed protection by police 24/7. If they won't let you defend yourself then they should bear the responsibility of doing it and the blame when they fail...as they did in this case. Should be some culpability on the lawmakers/PD for cases like this.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


But I guess the crap lawmakers in this case are happy because HER cameras caught him in the act, AND he killed himself. No work for them and all that were involved are now dead…..how convenient.

Absolutely no LEOs were harmed during the making of that video.

The real reason behind the extensive laws to prohibit firearms in the hands of the Public.

Say she got to a phone, called 911, grabbed her gun and waited inside. You see how the cops would be fearing for their lives a they approach her front door? As far as they are concerned one less gun is one less threat to their safety, regardless who's hands its in.

Thats more than conjecture. Who stalled the permit process in this case? The PD.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Clearly the only answer here is to require a waiting period to buy knives.

/sarc



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:38 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Clearly the only answer here is to require a waiting period to buy knives.

/sarc


Or ban them.....



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:40 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Whoa now! Let's not get too crazy here. We don't want to violate any rights or anything. Oh wait, knives aren't covered in the 2nd amendment.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:51 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

No doubt 2nd amendment supporters will be accused of using this to "politicize".

You can't fix stupid.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:54 AM
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How's this propaganda any better than the anti-gun crowd's propaganda?

A member of my family was shot by a psychotic ex-bf against whom she had a restraining order. He laid in wait for her in a parking lot and shot her and her best friend at nearly point blank with hollow point ammunition fired from a legally registered handgun. Thankfully, they both survived and he offed himself thinking she was dead. She owns a gun but didn't have it with her but even if she had, she wouldn't have had an opportunity to pull it.

Point being, it's just as disingenuous to act as though guns are the answer to violent crime as it is to pretend that they're the cause.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Vasa Croe

No doubt 2nd amendment supporters will be accused of using this to "politicize".

You can't fix stupid.


Of course this is being used to politicize the discussion. Can't fix willfully ignorant either I guess.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian
How's this propaganda any better than the anti-gun crowd's propaganda?

A member of my family was shot by a psychotic ex-bf against whom she had a restraining order. He laid in wait for her in a parking lot and shot her and her best friend at nearly point blank with hollow point ammunition fired from a legally registered handgun. Thankfully, they both survived and he offed himself thinking she was dead. She owns a gun but didn't have it with her but even if she had, she wouldn't have had an opportunity to pull it.

Point being, it's just as disingenuous to act as though guns are the answer to violent crime as it is to pretend that they're the cause.


It's a better answer than restraining orders, police and laws. Please tell me how any of the previously mentioned would have saved this lady or your family member and friend? Had your family member had her gun on her then she may have had a chance at fighting back. Certainly screaming at the attacker that she had a restraining order, or he was breaking the law was not going to help.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 10:04 AM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Vasa Croe

No doubt 2nd amendment supporters will be accused of using this to "politicize".

You can't fix stupid.


Of course this is being used to politicize the discussion. Can't fix willfully ignorant either I guess.


My prescience thusly established, I am available for birthday parties and weddings.



posted on Jun, 11 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian

How's this propaganda any better than the anti-gun crowd's propaganda?


Because the firearms laws in New Jersey are draconian and there is a mentality by many that it is okay to make you wait to exercise your Second Amendment rights.

I can give you a litany of examples like my friend who went into the Montclair police department for a purchasing permit and was told, 'We are out of them for the year' (it was May). A call to a friend who then had an NRA attorney call the police department resulted us in retuning so the pissy pants sergeant could slap a new application on the counter and give us the look of death.







 
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