Aliens exist: Here is the proof

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

of credible ordinary people. I saw my neighbor do this, I saw the criminal do that, I saw this in the car accident, I saw that in the fight, I saw my co-worker do this, the customer did that.

Nobody is going to question ordinary people doing ordinary things. Or are you trying to portrait abduction experiences as something ordinary?

I could claim that I've just returned from a short trip to Mars. Would you consider my witness testimony as credible?

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

of credible ordinary people. I saw my neighbor do this, I saw the criminal do that, I saw this in the car accident, I saw that in the fight, I saw my co-worker do this, the customer did that.

Nobody is going to question ordinary people doing ordinary things. Or are you trying to portrait abduction experiences as something ordinary?

I could claim that I've just returned from a short trip to Mars. Would you consider my witness testimony as credible?

Ya know, I get real tired of this whole inappropriately termed "witness testimony" crap...you should be aware that quite a lot of good, viable data can be extracted from such reports...

So, if you have what you think is a true "story" lets hear it...perhaps the story itself can validate and disclose the reality it contains...

originally posted by: metamagic
Humour aside, you seem to be saying that probability is the way the universe must operate -- that by its nature, the universe is uncertain, and this is what we see as probabilistic. A counter argument could be made that the universe is actually totally certain or deterministic so that the pattern of unfolding of events is fixed and immutable;

Yes, that is kind of what I'm saying. 'm also saying, that at present; data supports the probabilistic view, as opposed to the deterministic view. However, it might be a good thing for you to introduce yourself to quantum physics, string theory, and metaphysics idea that can be called "Enochian Physics". Many of the ideas are valuable to understanding.

Here is the question that experiment leads to: "Does "uncertainty" reflect an underlying property of the universe or does it describe the nature of my incomplete perception of a universe which is in reality totally deterministic?"

Don't forget, the central question of epistemology for millennia has been "How certain can I be about what I know?" It is still a open question.

In conjunction with the probabilistic view I also try to employ Bayesian Inference...this allows me to actually begin to quantify; "How certain can I be about what I know?"

The meanings of words are not fixed, nor are they arbitrary.

Well since we are talking about "proof" as differentiated from "mother"; how about we stick with a wee bit of convention...

I really have no idea what "type antagonistic" means so I cannot comment on that. Similarly, the rest of that paragraph makes no sense to me so you will have to excuse my not commenting on them.

Actually, it is rather simple...When I say that I am type antagonistic I am saying that "type" has little meaning or bearing in the instance. Thus things like "proof" either are or are not...there is no type or "kind" of proof...there is simply "proof". Similarly I don't take into account the "type" of life on a world...a world either has life or it does not. it does not matter if that life is simple or complex, or even advanced sentient...it is all simply "life".

And it does appear that I forgot an important definition, for "evidence"...perhaps because I think of these things as self-evident, others do not...

Proof: compelling evidence.
Evidence: relevant data.

There is much to be said about using a simple view and approach to this...for instance, getting rid of all the convoluting language and distracting crap will allow us to actually take a better look at what we are trying to discuss. Trying to introduce language that obfuscates the original point(s) only serves to keep the original idea hidden, and begin the process of confusing the original point(s).

The result is a discussion that des not inform or resolve anything.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

I tend to agree that we seem to have several standards for witness testimony and choose whichever one suits our outlook. On the other hand, it's not realistic to expect someone's personal experience to become a reality or fact for the rest of the population. When someone has an abduction experience, there's no acceptable way to convince others.

Last Sunday night, I had the full 'old hag' experience and it was momentarily quite scary. I awoke to see a shadowy female sucking two black tendrils of air (or energy) from me. The apparition's face was less than a foot from mine and was wearing something like a witch's hat slanting backwards from its expressionless face. I batted it away and suddenly gasped in a lungful of air like I'd just surfaced from a deep pool - soaked in sweat. To say that it was 'real' would be an understatement; it was completely realistic.

You can guess where I'm going with this? Yeah, it didn't happen in any 'real' way outside of my own perception. I'm not disputing the abduction experience here. I'm trying to point out that, despite millions experiencing 'black hag,' we don't then agree that such things have a physical reality. Unfortunately for abduction experiencers, the same terms apply to their experiences too.

This is it, for me as a child I experienced many things. I was very shy, so you can just image how terrifying everything was to me. If a teach shouted at me at any point I'd burst into tears. That was all my perception on the matter, as well as I'd link a seemingly horrifying situation to that of something I believe it could be.

For example here in Jamaica alot of people believe in "Duppy"(Ghosts) it's even been on our local news, here's a video
www.youtube.com...

It's him, himself throwing himself about. And it's fairly possible. If you believe enough you will do strange things. His belief is probably so strong that his mind has created a being for him. At 0:33 he moves before the chair moves which would suggest that the movement of his body is what pushed the chair. So it's actually about your perception, back as a child if my mother made a scary face, I always thought she became 'demon possesed' until I grew up. Luckily for me I did a fair bit of reading and was able to disprove these things to myself.

@Scdfa So if your mother was taken by a force and it created heavy trauma and you did not understand what was happening, you might just relate it to an alien incident, as for you and your brother, the same. But I do not discredit your story. But keep in mind neighbours would have to also witness this event you should probably try to get intouch with them and ask them what it is that happened. Going through hard times especially where trauma is involved your perception can be completely warped.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
I tend to agree that we seem to have several standards for witness testimony and choose whichever one suits our outlook. On the other hand, it's not realistic to expect someone's personal experience to become a reality or fact for the rest of the population. When someone has an abduction experience, there's no acceptable way to convince others.... [Your black Hag anecdote]....I'm trying to point out that, despite millions experiencing 'black hag,' we don't then agree that such things have a physical reality. Unfortunately for abduction experiencers, the same terms apply to their experiences too.

Your post wonderfully highlights why it is we can't generally take all testimony at face value. I couldn't agree more. But there are some huge differences in the alien & Black Hag situations, i.e., the same terms should probably not apply. Why? Aliens are predicted. Everything we know about the universe strongly suggests they should exist.

We now know that planets around other stars are the norm, not the exception, and we keep discovering exoplanets more and more like "Earth 2.0."

The math -- the same kind of math Fermi used in formulating his "paradox" -- predicts that intelligent extraterrestrials should have been here by now.

We've sent our own "UFOs" to other planets. In the same solar system, yes, but still, we did it in less than a century after our first powered flight.

We have respectable, Ivy League scientists urging that we look right here, close to home, for signs of visitation or even presence: "search for alien artifacts on the moon," say Paul Davies, et al., or even "search for alien cities" in our asteroid and Kuiper belt, say others.

Add to that the million or more UFO sightings, and clearly, what we have here over the last 70+ years is several lines of thought and evidence converging onto one idea: ET is probably here. A large portion of the population has no trouble accepting this, & more and more accept it each day.

Where most people draw a different line, as you imply, is at the entity or contact cases. Our brains can't deal? Until the last year, I had difficulty accepting it. Now my thoughts are: well of course they're taking a closer look at some of us. Alien craft --> alien occupants --> alien occupants examining us.... Is there a single good reason those three things wouldn't be happening together? Especially if we keep in mind that the occupants / abductors may be artificial?

And consider, if today we found less intelligent life on Mars, does anyone doubt that we'd soon begin planning some sort of "bag and tag" program to study it?

I'm not disagreeing with you here Kandinsky, just piggybacking, really. But when you say (re: no UFOs vs.UFOs vs. abduction) that people "seem to have several standards for witness testimony and choose whichever one suits our outlook", I think you're exactly right. I'd just want to emphasize that it's probably not always a "choice" as to which standard a person will apply?( See the text excerpt inserted just below.)

And while it's also 100% true that, as you say, "there's no acceptable way [for abductees] to convince others," I think it must be pointed out that those 'others' have a DUTY here, too: the duty to recognize the kinds of natural emotions and biases which come into play when determining witness believability, and to adjust that standard appropriately. The duty to allow themselves to be convinced, in other words. Hynek discusses it all pretty well, in my opinion:

We come now to the most bizarre and and seemingly incredible aspect of the entire UFO phenomenon. To be frank, I would gladly omit this part if I could without offense to scientific integrity: Close Encounters of the Third Kind, those in which the presence of animated creatures is reported....

Unfortunately one may not omit data simply because they may not be to one's liking or in line with one's preconceived notions. We balk at reports about occupants even though we might be willing to listen attentively to accounts of other UFO encounters. Why? In this 'festival of absurdity', as Aime Michel has termed this part of the UFO phenomenon, why should a report of a car stopped on the highway by a blinding light from an unknown craft be any different in essential strangeness or absurdity from one of a craft from which two or three little animate creatures descend?

There is no logical reason, yet I confess to sharing a prejudice that is hard to explain. Is it the confrontation on the animate level that disturbs and repulses us? Perhaps as long as it is our own intelligence that contemplates the report of a machine, albeit strange, we still somehow feel superior in such contemplation. Encounters with animate beings, possibly with an intelligence of different order from ours, gives a new dimen­sion to our atavistic fear of the unknown.

Our common sense recoils at the very idea of humanoids and leads to much banter and ridicule and jokes about little green men. They tend to throw the whole UFO concept into dis­repute. Maybe UFOs could really exist, we say, but human­oids? And if these are truly figments of our imagination, then so must be the ordinary UFOs. But these are backed by so many reputable witnesses that we cannot accept them as simple mis­perceptions. Are then, all of these reporters of UFOs truly sick? If so, what is the sickness? Are these people all affected by some strange 'virus' that does not attack 'sensible' people? What a strange sickness this must be, attacking people in all walks of life, regardless of training or vocation, and making them, for a very limited period of time - only minutes some­times - behave in a strange way and see things that are belied by the reliable and stable manner and actions they exhibit in the rest of their lives....

The fact is, how­ever, that the occupant encounters cannot be disregarded; they are too numerous.... The reader will discover for himself that there is a very great similarity in accounts of occupant cases in reports from over the world. He will learn that they are similar not only in the de­scription of the appearance of most humanoids but in their reported actions.... Clearly, it is not only kooks who report humanoids.

It appears, in short, that we cannot subdivide the UFO phenomenon, accepting some parts and rejecting others. We must study the entire phenomenon or none of it. Encounters of the Third Kind must in all fairness be included in this book.

(From Hynek's "The UFO Experience," available on amazon (starting at $1.43!) ... or at scribd.)

Very illuminating. Is there any reason (beyond our discomfort with it) that the same ideas don't apply to Close Encounters of The Fourth Kind? We must be careful, yes, but tending to accept the word of abduction witnesses is not nearly the same as tending to accept the word of Old Hag witnesses. Alien abduction fits coherently into an entire, broad body of evidence and scientific expectation.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: 321Go
a reply to: TrueMessiah

Not in the least does it make sense. Edward Snowden had access to everything but came up with nothing. Of course, according to your theory, he could be in on the conspiracy too. Yes, he reveals that the US and UK are covertly spying on everyone, but he must not tell us about the aliens!

Sorry but I'm not following you here.
The discussion was about the importance of eyewitness testimony. How do we know if Snowden knew anything about aliens at all?

If you don't follow what the implications of what I've written are, then perhaps you should think a little harder.

Let's assume there is an ET cover-up, even that they walk among us (or whatever your particular flavour of conspiracy happens to be), a security and contingency plan must be in place. That would involve the agency ultimately responsible for their safety and concealment, but also it must include by default the 'regular' agencies of CIA, NSA and FBI – each responsible for their own areas of security and enforcement.

Edward Snowden had access to the entire NSA database and copied all of it, including those electronic links to other agencies. He has now revealed everything contained within that file structure – all of the secrets are now out and in the public domain. But where are the aliens? Not one mention of alien cover-ups. If there was ever a time to reveal a massive governmental secret such as this, it would be now. Instead, there is nothing.

Without realising it, Snowden has become the most authoritative, authentic and damning alien conspiracy debunker of all time.

originally posted by: Scdfa

The big questions come next.

We should begin to address them. Let's have a discussion where it is understood that aliens are here, and tackle just what that means. Anyone would be welcome to post, but we must resist the urge to be drawn back to the 'yes or no' and stay focused on more important questions. Questions like:

Why are they here?
What can we learn from their behavior?
Are they benevolent?
Why the abductions?

And the really important questions?

What are there plans for the human race?

And most important of all.

Can we stop them?

What defense do we really have against them?
Can we stop the abductions? The abductees sure can't.

Things get heavy once you get past the first question. Let's go there.

Nice to hear from you again Scdfa. I think you're completely right, it's time, once for all, to move forward.

My approach on 'what's next' is to force the US government to release whatever information they really hold on the subject. How do we know they must know a bit about it? Simple, actually. The US government should be one of the most concerned, specially during the post WWII era, about controlling its air space. It's just naive to asume they stopped investigating UFO reports after Blue Book. Did the sightings stopped? Did the abductions stopped? Not even close. It's perfectly logical to asume there must be people out there doing some heavy research on the subject, since a long time ago actually. Have this information reached the news? Not at all, so, it's kept secret, illegally, I must add.

To obtain some answers, it's not enough that a couple of researchers send some letters here and there. It won't make any difference. I only see one way to achieve this, and it's by coordinated civilian pressure. A massive protest, in every possible city, in order to force the government to eventually admit what's going on and what they do know. It's a start, just a start.

The point is, you need to start somewhere. Abductees already told what they experienced, summits already took place, press covered the gatherings, nothing really happened. And certainly you can't get anything from the 'aliens' either.

We're talking here of a historical event, maybe the most important event ever recorded in our entire history as civilization. We need to take, collectively, some action. But, before that even take place, the vast majority of the people must be correctly informed on the subject, to fully understand its implications. And sadly, we're not yet there.

error

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

wow wtf !! , must be going senile misspelled & Missing words ..

Apologetic here ,, right .. perhaps that they are from earth from a more advance civilization

Some where hidden , but as i said during the Cold War and World War II both sides blamed each other on these Objects ,, The Finding Out that the UFOs were from Neither sides ...

Its Hard too, Deny those facts of the existence of OLD NEWS Paper Clipping

Talking about Fiery Balls Of Light , or Spherical Objects Following a Bomber Squadron or Fighter Pilots in WWII

See here ..
Toronto Daily Star Jan 1945
newspaperproject2012.wordpress.com...

Here is Something to Do ... In Google Search ..

Type ; Newspaper July 29th 1952

the go to images & enter

and see how many Different News papers you will see in that particular Date
of interaction of the Air force and UFOS from town to town state to state.

and Since 1946 & 47 Before the Roswell Incident during, and Heavy through out the Decade of the 1950s

These Strange Objects where all over the place. Now ... you have the CIA Trying to say that it was theirs , these Strange UFO Objects. Claiming they were the U2 Spy Plane and the SR71 Reconnaissance Prototype in the 1950s ? I Doubt most Would be that ignorant ...

Well the skunk works were making different kinds of planes that's for sure .. in a place called Groom Lake , what we know now as Area 51 ,, but these People that saw these UFOS are are telling a different story of the Shape either Spherical or Disk Shape.. I don't think there was Spy Reconnaissance planes or Fighter Planes with that Shape ... but this is what the majority of Civilians and Certain Military pilots has seen in the 40s to the 50s

but the Skeptic.. part is Those Shapes are Literately Plastered on the Covers and Illustrations
In Science Fiction PULP Magazines Since the 1930s and Digest since the 1950s

Amazing Stories , Astounding Stories , Fantastic Adventures, Air Wonder Stories , Startling Stories IF , Galaxy Magazines

so its either the Writers of those Stories or the Illustrators seen these shapes or was told by the one's that actually seen these Strange Objects , OR Those Civilians or Military & Commercial Pilots Has told a Fabricated Story to the public media , from Reading those Pulps & Novelette/Digests of Science Fiction Magazines .. or they Actually Seen them..

Below are just a few of those Cover and Illustrations




Amazing Stories 1928 the Saucer Disk Shape and Spherical Ball



Modern Electronics ( 1912 ) a Flying Dome Saucer ?


1930's




So who Knows ...

So its Either Somebody read too many pulp science fiction mags

OR

Someone actually has seen these objects, way back then and Told the Story to the Writers or Illustrators of those very same mags

a reply to: Wolfenz

I could care less about old newspapers that published 3rd hand accounts of UFO sightings. Chances are I've already seen them anyway. They are stories;They are interesting anecdotes; But they are proof of nothing.

a reply to: 321Go

The alien stuff, as far as security classifications, are way above everything else, including designs and blueprints for atomic bombs and other weapons.
They are NOT on any database, nor any computer network.

Those records are "eyes only" meaning only one copy of a document in some super secure records storage, and they aren't connected to any computer network.

If Snowden had access to "Everything" then we would be seeing documents pertaining to Special access programs and black ops of all types and scopes. But those records share the same security problems, and they simply are not in any database.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: 321Go

The alien stuff, as far as security classifications, are way above everything else, including designs and blueprints for atomic bombs and other weapons.
They are NOT on any database, nor any computer network.

Those records are "eyes only" meaning only one copy of a document in some super secure records storage, and they aren't connected to any computer network.

If Snowden had access to "Everything" then we would be seeing documents pertaining to Special access programs and black ops of all types and scopes. But those records share the same security problems, and they simply are not in any database.

Is military has somethING called The Secret Internet Protocol Router Network (SIPRNet). It's there version of the Internet and can only be accesed from secured stations. If the government knew anything about aliens it would be there. And no people like snowden can't get access to the network only cleared operators who work in government. This is not access they would give contractors they have front door they can use to pass emails.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Have you ever played a game and make up the rules along the way so that regardless of what happens you win? :/

Why is it first assumption that anything other worldly would be hidden. Because you can find no proof you jump to say the government hides it from us, and of course many workers are in on this and they can't provide proof or they'll die? But people who disclose things are ridiculed instead of killed in most cases.



I can just imagine the amount of controversy he sparked in that clip.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: 321Go

The alien stuff, as far as security classifications, are way above everything else, including designs and blueprints for atomic bombs and other weapons.
They are NOT on any database, nor any computer network.

Those records are "eyes only" meaning only one copy of a document in some super secure records storage, and they aren't connected to any computer network.

If Snowden had access to "Everything" then we would be seeing documents pertaining to Special access programs and black ops of all types and scopes. But those records share the same security problems, and they simply are not in any database.

Is military has somethING called The Secret Internet Protocol Router Network (SIPRNet). It's there version of the Internet and can only be accesed from secured stations. If the government knew anything about aliens it would be there. And no people like snowden can't get access to the network only cleared operators who work in government. This is not access they would give contractors they have front door they can use to pass emails.

Absolutely NOT

I'm just sure. Alien data is not on any military network.

I worked in classified programs on Kirtland AFB for Sandia Labs which is on base there. They have other labs besides there, but the point is, the networks you are mentioning do not have a lot of things on them, they are need to know only and the average Joe with access to those networks don't have need to know. Alien data isn't on any network ANYWHERE like I said before.
Thanks for the giggles.

PS What makes you think the government knows everything that can be known anyway? Government doesn't know anything about most SAP programs anyways.When President Carter demanded from then CIA director Bush, data on aliens, he said "you don't have a need to know" and he wasn't told anything.
Besides that, all the really juicy insane stuff that are the substance of special access programs are so highly classified, that even their level of security is classified. No copies are allowed, no paper trail, no digital trail of any kind PERIOD. The very idea that you think something like that would be on the SIPRNet is beyond hilarity.

a reply to: tanka418

What story would you want to hear? I am sure I can come up with something.

After reading 22 pages I've come to the conclusion that the thread title should be changed to:

Aliens exist: Here is the... POOF!!!

And not just Governments - even the higher top secret level departments in intelligence agencies. Even those with access and compiling the most secure eyes-only data. Do they actually know? Or are UFOs just as unidentified to them as they are to every one else. And instead of hiding the truth they are hiding the fact they have no idea.

We as humans are fortunately blessed with the obsession to identify and know everything. Not knowing is our darkest fear. Even believing something without proof is more comforting than not knowing. Within this subject there is one particular case (even though there are many) that I find thought-provoking. The first crop circle that a record was made of. At the time a newspaper article reported it and though it was unexplained it was attributed to the devil working that man's fields while he slept. At that time when something unexplained or mysterious happened the answer we as humans jumped to was religious. Not knowing would scare us more than believing a demonic religious entity was working the fields at night.

What this case makes me wonder is - are ETs the new "religion"? In the sense that it fills the gaps that our knowledge cannot? The article depicting the circles on that field is pointed out today as proof of Extra-terrestrial life visiting Earth. We still don't know - or at least I speak for myself. Are we just replacing the Devil with ET as we deal with what escapes our knowledge?

a reply to: ACarva

Yes, it's essentially a new religion. If you compare it to Christianity on any level you'd see it's the exact same scenario.

"Jesus spoke to me" - "I've been abducted, and shown the future and informed"
"There are angels and demons" - "These beings are good and bad, currently the bad is here and the good is trying to save us"
"God can do all things" - "Aliens are so advanced we can't even begin to understand their tech"
"I believe god exists, never seen him yet but he must!" - "Aliens exist, I THINK what I know what I saw and no way it's anything else"

They essentially don't know what happened to them or what they saw, so the safest bet is to assume it was aliens. As well as if you propose open minded thinking you're practically shouted at for being a blasphemer. Many people who follow the faith that aliens exist are in heavy denial, they have as much proof as the man who claims to have spoke to jesus last night and is the new prophet and they should be taken seriously.

Then basically intertwine, since joining this forum my belief of intelligent life interacting with earth has fallen flat. Life is out there but not interacting with us, as far as I'm concerned.

a reply to: SuspiciousTom

I often think that the day it is announced we found extra-terrestrial life most people on Earth will be heavily disappointed. They'll turn on the news and it will be said life was found on Mars or some such but it will be a bacteria or an insect or some form of plant and everyone will just shrug it off. Reason is that we're not really all that interested in finding life. That good ol' question "Are we alone?" doesn't apply to life. We know we're not alone - there is an immense number of other living beings in our planet itself. We don't want them in our house even - there's so much life that we buy pesticides and are obsessed with cleanliness with the single intention to keep them all out!

What we want is a mate. We know we can't have a proper conversation with any of the species in our planet... so we're hoping that out there we can find a species that has a selfish intent just like us and that excels at technology just like us, and is capable of love and hate just like us, and most of all... that is very curious about us because we so special.

We want a galactic beer buddy.

Just like we used to want a divine beer buddy.