Bare with me and feel free to correct me

Hello all,

I rarely get involved in any religious debate or belief system posts on this site. I have loosely studied many different religions over my spare time, I dont mean just looking them up on a wiki or reading sites dedicated to X or Y, I have taken time to read actual text's and alas some translated which I feel lost the over all grandeur.

BUT

There has always been one thing that has confused me and its a personal belief which was reinforced at an early age by a priest. I was christened as a Methodist but certain subjects were rarely covered until I one day asked about something I had read, and it was a mix of death, judgement day and in a way punishment.

Now, this is where I get confused...... and as the title said, bare with me as I will try and explain what I thought and was then taught and will keep it short and simple:

When a person dies, they are not automatically judged. There was no real hell; just what would come instantly. A disconnection from god as you were... well.. dead. On the day of judgement (not the final day) all dead would once again walk the earth to be judged and once again it would not be "you be evil, STRAIGHT TO HELL WITH YOU", if you were found pure of heart etc you would be allowed into the true after life but if you had sinned (or as I put it been a d*ck to the n'th degree) you were found wanting and your punishment was to walk the earth attempting to atone for your sins once again completely disconnected from God's embrace. Once you had faced your inner demons and had atoned for your sin's you would finally be reborn into well... heaven.

I know this summery wont sit well with some people as it doesn't punish the wicked but when I asked a priest about this "understanding" I had grasped from reading the bible (at that age I tended to pick which parts I would read) and explained that I was confused that bad people would not be punished. Further more that it would allow truly evil people into heaven when god knew what they had done.

To which he replied:

"God did know, God does know but god gives you the choices in life"

Which then spurred me onto the question "What about Gods plan".

Now, what was said next almost blew my tiny mind and still does. Now I must say, this was not a wishy washy priest. He wasnt a new up n coming priest in the area... he was a well know, well established and very well liked priest who is sadly no longer with us but to hear this said... from someone like him.

"Who is to say God has a plan, In my eyes he gives his children free will to do as they please. We are his children and to that end children make mistakes. Be they simple mistakes or despicable acts, a father would always in the end forgive his children as God will us. To that end, I do not believe that God has a plan. This is why bad things can happen to good people".

Seriously, being young and him at the time seeming over 100 years old and strong of faith, saying no plan? not punishing evil apart from the disconnection? Him agreeing with my own reading of the "end times" then hitting me with that?

Now, in this present moment in time; I am agnostic. I have my reasons but I support all religions and their right to believe in what ever they wish and no... before anyone jumps in and says YOU SUPPORT ISIS or something like that let me point out. I support the idea of bettering ones self and if people need a book written X years ago to do it, then go for it. I dont support nut jobs who desecrate historic sites and kill people AND pigeons and yes I get the irony that nearly all main stream religions at some point have done the "whelp... better kill people" thing.

So, at this point most people reading would be asking what the hell Im talking about, and to be completely honest at this moment in time I really dont know anymore. I think I just needed to get it out of my system.

Peace and chicken grease

thekaboose

a reply to: thekaboose

The exacting specifics are unknown for those outside of the body of Christ.


You were born into a corrupt world.

Yashua / Jesus paid the price for us and anyone is free to accept it if they truly want to.

The Pharisees focused on the letter of the Law but missed the true spirit of it, which is given in Galatians 5:14: “The whole law can be summed up in this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change (Luke 9:23; Acts 1:8).

Forgiveness is not cheap, and it does not excuse the sin that separated us from God. It cost God everything to offer us the cleansing that pronounces us righteous before Him (John 3:16; 15:13).


In saying, “Go and sin no more,” Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection. He was warning against a return to sinful lifestyle choices.

With forgiveness comes the expectation that we will not continue in the same path of rebelliousness.

Rather than continue in the self-centered path that led us astray from Him to begin with, the forgiven can walk in God’s path (Luke 14:27). A move toward God is a move toward righteousness, purity, and holy living (1 Peter 1:16; Romans 8:29). We cannot experience the transforming power of forgiveness without being forever changed.

Once we lived only to please ourselves, but when we have been forgiven, our motivation changes. We now live to please God (Galatians 2:20).

When we meet Jesus, sin no longer holds its fatal attraction. Grace changes things. “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2).When we are born again (John 3:3), the power of the Holy Spirit breaks the power that sin once had over us (Romans 6:6).

When true Christians tell you that God will punish sinners for their transgressions after this life, you find it a little easier to turn the other cheek. They'll get theirs...eventually.

When your religious text glorifies conquest over the non-believer and instructs you to punish sinners yourself, and promises physical rewards of sin of the flesh.... well... you can figure it out.

a reply to: thekaboose

The phrase "back up ahead wow" come to mind while reading your post .Just because someone goes to college to receive a degree in religion to become a priest means little for a multitude of reasons .They could be damaged beyond repair with some of the crazy theology taught there so don't put too much weight behind what they are saying but use some salt . You may have a version of atonement that cant be supported by the Bible . Sure we can make mends to wrongs we may have committed towards other humans but there is a atonement towards God that only Jesus can fulfill .

Aside from some of the other things that you seem to be confused about the atonement issue seem to be the biggest . This is a good place to read and consider bible.org...

a reply to: thekaboose

When a person dies, they are not automatically judged. There was no real hell; just what would come instantly. A disconnection from god as you were... well.. dead. On the day of judgement (not the final day) all dead would once again walk the earth to be judged and once again it would not be "you be evil, STRAIGHT TO HELL WITH YOU", if you were found pure of heart etc you would be allowed into the true after life but if you had sinned (or as I put it been a d*ck to the n'th degree) you were found wanting and your punishment was to walk the earth attempting to atone for your sins once again completely disconnected from God's embrace. Once you had faced your inner demons and had atoned for your sin's you would finally be reborn into well... heaven.

I cannot give you knowable answers but only answers that are within my faith. My religion is first century Christianity,

I won't get into quotes of scripture but if you need them will gladly give them to you.

Before Jesus died all spirits of living people descended into Sheol in a conscious state and were separated the good from the bad. There were seven compartments in this underworld of Sheol which contained degrees of rewards and punishments. No one at this time had ever entered the celestial realm of heaven.

As Jesus was conceived through the Spirit of God, He brought the message from the Father that a new celestial kingdom was established and invited the justified spirits to ascend and live in the celestial world. As Jesus died He brought those good spirits from Sheol up to the new Jerusalem which became the first resurrection of the Adamic race. This was done as Jesus died and was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

From that point to this very day it is the faith of the first church congregation that as a proper person dies they die with consciousness and ascend into the celestial New Jerusalem to eat and drink of the food and water of life.

There are two more gatherings in salvation which have not happened as yet. These are known as resurrections. The first of these resurrections will be when God gathers the living good from the face of the earth and allows them to join those who are already in the New Jerusalem. What remains are the bad in the earth (Sheol) and the bad living on the earth.

Jesus then returns to this present earth as "The Word of God" and reigns on this present earth for one thousand years. Those living on this present earth during that one thousand years will continue to live and die as they had before "The Word" came to govern. After the one thousand years have expired there will be a short time before the second and last gathering takes place.

The last resurrection (gathering) is the end of this entire creation. All of the living will stand judgement and the good will once again be allowed into the celestial New Jerusalem while the bad will face the ethereal fire of destruction along with the bad who are in Sheol. The finality is that the good are then in one family in the celestial realm of New Jerusalem with a new heaven and earth. The bad from this world are destroyed in the celestial fire.

We do have two distinct points to consider in the NT. One is the rabbinic doctrine and the other is the doctrine of Christ Jesus. They are intermingled and must be considered in understanding their meanings. The rabbinic doctrine says that as you die your body lays in the ground and the spirit is contained in Sheol. A last day judgement comes when all of the dead bodies will unite with the spirit and stand in a judgment.

But the doctrine of Christ Jesus says that it is appointed once to die and then judgment. If you had a resurrection of the body in the ground then that body must die again and that would mean two deaths for the human body. Jesus declares that flesh and blood cannot enter His New Jerusalem so after the rabbinic resurrection that body which was raised from the ground must die once again. The last day in rabbinic faith is not the same as in Christian faith. The last day in rabbinic faith is the judgment of all people and then a golden age before the end of the world. The last day in Christian faith is the final judgment of the one who are alive upon this earth and the end of the world.

As you can see it can become confusing if you are not aware that the NT is a transformation from one doctrine to another and that even though one can quote a scripture, that scripture must be determined as being from the doctrine of Jesus not the rabbis. The Apostles were constantly being taught from rabbinic faith to that of the Christ Jesus. As you read, be careful and be sure that it conforms to that doctrine of Jesus.

Now do not think that I am saying that there is deliberate falsehood in the NT. What I am saying is that the Apostles were born and raised in rabbinic Judaism and that Jesus corrected some of their misunderstandings. Resurrection is one of these teachings of the rabbis that Jesus disagreed. Not that the Apostles deliberately penned error but that it was their rabbinic teachings that they repeated in many cases. Some critics will pick out these differences to support their hatred for Christianity.

Much appreciated, you sharing mire of yourself. The church and it's doctrines can be a mind screw for any who are young in the mind.

I just wish people could live their lives without a book written (now mass produced in factories) by man.

We were born here unconsciously. We grew up under every influence imaginable.

If anyone damns me after I die, they are in for a surprise. I control my destiny, my choices, my thoughts, what I do and where I go.

I don't see any shiny people holding my hand. This life is mine. And I fear not any god.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: thekaboose

The exacting specifics are unknown for those outside of the body of Christ.


You were born into a corrupt world.

Yashua / Jesus paid the price for us and anyone is free to accept it if they truly want to.

The Pharisees focused on the letter of the Law but missed the true spirit of it, which is given in Galatians 5:14: “The whole law can be summed up in this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change (Luke 9:23; Acts 1:8).

Forgiveness is not cheap, and it does not excuse the sin that separated us from God. It cost God everything to offer us the cleansing that pronounces us righteous before Him (John 3:16; 15:13).


In saying, “Go and sin no more,” Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection. He was warning against a return to sinful lifestyle choices.

With forgiveness comes the expectation that we will not continue in the same path of rebelliousness.

Rather than continue in the self-centered path that led us astray from Him to begin with, the forgiven can walk in God’s path (Luke 14:27). A move toward God is a move toward righteousness, purity, and holy living (1 Peter 1:16; Romans 8:29). We cannot experience the transforming power of forgiveness without being forever changed.

Once we lived only to please ourselves, but when we have been forgiven, our motivation changes. We now live to please God (Galatians 2:20).

When we meet Jesus, sin no longer holds its fatal attraction. Grace changes things. “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2).When we are born again (John 3:3), the power of the Holy Spirit breaks the power that sin once had over us (Romans 6:6).

When true Christians tell you that God will punish sinners for their transgressions after this life, you find it a little easier to turn the other cheek. They'll get theirs...eventually.

When your religious text glorifies conquest over the non-believer and instructs you to punish sinners yourself, and promises physical rewards of sin of the flesh.... well... you can figure it out.

How do you rectify your belief that when a Christian dies they go to heaven when John states that none have ascended except He who descended first?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If when a Christian dies they go to heaven does their spirit reunite with their glorified bodies on the day of the last trump if so why the need for the glorified body since your already with Christ in heaven?

a reply to: guitarplayer

How do you rectify your belief that when a Christian dies they go to heaven when John states that none have ascended except He who descended first? John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John states that Jesus said this while He was alive.

Tradition tells us that as Jesus died He then descended into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights and led the justified spirits from Sheol into the kingdom of heaven (New Jerusalem). This New Jerusalem is that kingdom of heaven that Jesus preached while alive. In other words the kingdom of heaven was not given to people before Jesus died and was the main reason He came from heaven to establish His Kingdom.

From that point on all justified spirits ascend into New Jerusalem upon death while the unjustified spirits continue to exist in Sheol. This is what is meant when said that those who accept Jesus will pass from death into life.

a reply to: guitarplayer

If when a Christian dies they go to heaven does their spirit reunite with their glorified bodies on the day of the last trump if so why the need for the glorified body since your already with Christ in heaven?

First answer is that we should be aware that the NT is a transition from rabbinic Judaism to the doctrine of Jesus. The last trump is understood by the rabbis differently than by what Jesus teaches. In rabbinic Judaism the last trump is the resurrection of every one who has ever existed. The spirits of everyone who has ever existed are contained in the underworld called Sheol. At the last trump- all of the dead will come up from the earth and return into their original state as when they died and then are reunited with their spirits which were in Sheol. Everyone will then be judged.

But this is not the end of the world as yet. All of the accepted souls will then enjoy a golden age of existence under a king from the house of David. This earthly Jerusalem will become the capital and seat of government for the entire world. The messiah king will live and die as any normal man and his offspring will then repeat this golden age till the end of this creation.

The second answer is that of Jesus. There are two resurrections that have not happened yet. These are actually considered gatherings by some. The first of these gatherings will happen immediately after a great tribulation which is also known as Jacobs trouble which plagues the world with all sorts of afflictions. Then all of the righteous people who are alive at this time will be killed and their spirits immediately judged and taken to the New Jerusalem. Here they are given a celestial covering (body) in the same image as they were on earth. In other words the spirit is the same substance but the covering (body) is a substance change from earthly to celestial. They are then given a new name written on a white stone with understanding of the universal celestial tongue. Here they eat and drink the fruit and water of life.

The Messiah will then establish His government in the earthly Jerusalem for one thousand years. People will continue to live and die during those one thousand years and many will learn to accept the Messiah. At the end of this one thousand years is the final trump when all of the living will instantly die and stand in a great White Throne judgment. The entire creation will at this time perish. Those who are in this last gathering will be processed the same as those in the preceding gatherings.

This is only a brief outline of the doctrine of Christ Jesus. The final trump of God is the end of His purpose of creating our creation. This can be confusing if you are not careful in understanding what the Apostles taught. You must remember that the Apostles were born and raised in Rabbinic Judaic teachings. As they were being taught by Jesus they had to transition their beliefs into His teachings. Even after the death of Jesus the Apostles were still in transition of doctrines. John revealed Revelation many years after Jesus died and taught things that were never revealed in the ministry of Jesus. This is why many people quote a verse from NT without realizing that it is rabbinic teachings and not necessarily the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

As it stands now. when a Christian dies, he or she will be completely conscious as a spirit and then be immediately judged. The doctrine of Jesus does not teach a resurrection of a dead body. Only the Spirit is judged once and then punishments or rewards. A naked spirit is a spirit in Sheol that has not the celestial covering (body). A resurrected spirit is a celestial spirit with a new body.

a reply to: thekaboose

All of this information simply seems to be your opinion, and don't get me wrong your entitled to your opinion but what makes it true?