Conspiracy - How Big Business Invented the Theology of 'Christian Libertarianism' ...

" Conspiracy - How Big Business Invented the Theology of 'Christian Libertarianism' ... "

and yet the Libertarian groups get hardly any votes.

successful ?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: greencmp

I wouldn't say they are exclusive but, they are certainly unrelated.

How can someone who holds conservative social views be a Libertarian? The very definition is to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

You can't be a social anything as a libertarian, liberal and conservative are the two sides of the socialism coin. They both endeavor to use the power of government to influence behavior. They merely have slightly differing agendas.

As long as it doesn't rise to violence or the abridgment of someone's rights, libertarianism is uninvolved and uninterested in private thoughts and activities.

originally posted by: xuenchen
" Conspiracy - How Big Business Invented the Theology of 'Christian Libertarianism' ... "

and yet the Libertarian groups get hardly any votes.

'Christian Libertarianism' isn't actually Libertarian. It's a mixture of capitalism and religion. The ideas of libertarianism were mixed with the sanctity of religion. Piety + Patriotism.

The article is really worth a read. www.alternet.org...

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, I consider myself a Libertarian and I am pretty sure I am not greedy and self-interested.

I didn't call you greedy nor self-centered, but you would be lying if you said that Libertarianism didn't promote such values.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Religious Right's social issues that a Libertarian does not have an issue with.

Libertarianism doesn't gel with any sort of religiousness, bastardized Christianity or regular. There are just too many precepts that if they were to be obeyed, would run counter to true Libertarianism. The religious right has too many values that are against self actualization and real Christianity is more Socialist in nature.

By the way, I'm a Libertarian. I've studied the concepts a lot. In fact, it came as a HUGE surprise to me that Libertarianism has become associated with the religious right, because I didn't identify with those non-Libertarian values and I wasn't prepared to use religious arguments to back up these various values. Not many know what real Libertarianism really is and entails. There are few on these boards who I would say do know.

To me, it makes sense if a Libertarian is atheist/agnostic, a-religious, or at the very least non-Abrahamic religious.

originally posted by: greencmp

You can't be a social anything as a libertarian, liberal and conservative are the two sides of the socialism coin. They both endeavor to use the power of government to influence behavior. They merely have slightly differing agendas.

As long as it doesn't rise to violence or the abridgment of someone's rights, libertarianism is uninvolved and uninterested in private thoughts and activities.

I was over simplifying the matter. Perhaps, since we are being exact, I should have said socially ambivalent.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I didn't call you greedy nor self-centered, but you would be lying if you said that Libertarianism didn't promote such values.

I have been a Libertarian for sometime and I have not felt that it promoted self-centrism or greed. While I will admit that I do enjoy making a lot of money my wife and I also do quite a bit of volunteering.

Libertarianism doesn't gel with any sort of religiousness, bastardized Christianity or regular. There are just too many precepts that if they were to be obeyed, would run counter to true Libertarianism. The religious right has too many values that are against self actualization and real Christianity is more Socialist in nature.

By the way, I'm a Libertarian. I've studied the concepts a lot. In fact, it came as a HUGE surprise to me that Libertarianism has become associated with the religious right, because I didn't identify with those non-Libertarian values and I wasn't prepared to use religious arguments to back up these various values. Not many know what real Libertarianism really is and entails. There are few on these boards who I would say do know.

To me, it makes sense if a Libertarian is atheist/agnostic, a-religious, or at the very least non-Abrahamic religious.

I am very much in agreement with what you wrote. When I came to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism was not the right path for me my interest in Libertarian views became more profound and involved.

originally posted by: beezzer
I, for one, am just glad we have another "Christians are idiot-dupes" thread.

We just don't get enough of these.

Would love to knowhow the leftists and progressives avoided the brainwashing!

I don't know that it has anything to do with "Christians are idiot-dupes" considering that in 1950, somewhere north of 90% of Americans self-identified as Christian. However, it does seem that in recent years, American conservativism has branded itself as the ideology of Christians.

a reply to: theantediluvian

And yet I wonder in how many churches in black neighborhoods have politicians pushed their campaigns and used the "bully pulpit" to push their agendas?

It is rather ironic that the US with it's separation of Church and state has organically? adapted it's political stances in line with religion.

Here in the UK where we are a Christian country, there isn't separation of Church and state, though the political ideologies are not of any religious slant, in fact it is rarely mentioned in politics, at least hasn't recently.

I don't suppose anyone on the thread wants to hear my opinion seeing as anything said that isn't pro gay /transgender etc (regardless of not being anti) is viewed by most Americans (at least as it appears on ATS boards) as being a fundamental, right wing Christian dinosaur (neither of those) but there it is anyway. An observation on the subject from a non American.

a reply to: FyreByrd

“the only antidote is a revival of American patriotism and religious faith.”

A tactic used by the very man that proved to the world that this tactic not only works, but will eventually drive an entire country to it's own demise; Hitler.

Ultra-nationalism and invoking the name of god has become the main tactics used by certain political ideologies. You're not a patriot unless you believe in god, country and regurgitate the same rhetoric/propaganda that their ideological leaders do.

Of course, this is to the detriment of not only the entire country, but religion and conservatism as well.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth

or some guys sporting zero hindsight making international policies.

Lol. Exactly

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
I have been a Libertarian for sometime and I have not felt that it promoted self-centrism or greed. While I will admit that I do enjoy making a lot of money my wife and I also do quite a bit of volunteering.

It's the core ideas of Libertarianism I'm talking about. The idea that you can keep yours and don't have to donate to anything if you don't want to. I'm not trying to say that individual Libertarians are greedy and self-centered. Also, just because it promotes a greed and self-centeredness, doesn't mean you as a Libertarian can't donate your excess income to charity or anything. Greed is just a basic part of the ideology. It's just a fact.

I am very much in agreement with what you wrote. When I came to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism was not the right path for me my interest in Libertarian views became more profound and involved.

Libertarianism made a LOT more sense to me after I stopped being Christian as well.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
It's the core ideas of Libertarianism I'm talking about. The idea that you can keep yours and don't have to donate to anything if you don't want to. I'm not trying to say that individual Libertarians are greedy and self-centered. Also, just because it promotes a greed and self-centeredness, doesn't mean you as a Libertarian can't donate your excess income to charity or anything. Greed is just a basic part of the ideology. It's just a fact.

I guess I see it different as not choosing to donate does not make one greedy or self-centered in my opinion. You may have mitigating circumstances that are none of anyone's business or do not agree with the specific cause(s).

Compulsory charity is not really charity, but I am sure you well know this.

Libertarianism made a LOT more sense to me after I stopped being Christian as well.

I think I act more 'Christian' now than when I was a member. For one thing, I do not go around judging people for what they want to do based on a contrived and dogmatic paradigm.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
I don't suppose anyone on the thread wants to hear my opinion seeing as anything said that isn't pro gay /transgender etc (regardless of not being anti) is viewed by most Americans (at least as it appears on ATS boards) as being a fundamental, right wing Christian dinosaur (neither of those) but there it is anyway. An observation on the subject from a non American.

You may be surprised. Most Libertarians would like to do away with the anti-discrimination laws. And regardless of how I argue the laws on that matter, I would like to do away with them as well. My biggest incentive to argue FOR enforcement of the laws comes from the Constitution and the 14th Amendment. AS LONG AS these laws exist, they should be applied equally to EVERY citizen. That doesn't mean that I (or you) am homophobic or racist.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

You may be surprised. Most Libertarians would like to do away with the anti-discrimination laws.

This Libertarian agrees with you.

And regardless of how I argue the laws on that matter, I would like to do away with them as well. My biggest incentive to argue FOR enforcement of the laws comes from the Constitution and the 14th Amendment. AS LONG AS these laws exist, they should be applied equally to EVERY citizen. That doesn't mean that I (or you) am homophobic or racist.

This Libertarian agrees with you again.

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: FyreByrd

I assume there is a link to the whole article?

mind reading isn't my specialty today.

Opps -- my bad --

www.alternet.org...

It's a nice history piece. I only knew about this 'shift' from the side of the religion side - that the wealthy are blessed by heaven because they have money and the poor are sinners a la "The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power" by Jeff Sharlet.

It's nice to have the story from the corporate side.

Both wanting control and in bed together to maintain it.

originally posted by: beezzer
I, for one, am just glad we have another "Christians are idiot-dupes" thread.

We just don't get enough of these.

Would love to knowhow the leftists and progressives avoided the brainwashing!

It would be called "Critical Thinking". Conservatives used to do it too. They taught it in non-sectarian public schools for decades as well.

The thread nor the article is 'anti-Christian'. It's a factual account of recent history - the religion 'recruited' by business PR types just happened to be Christianity as it was (and still is) the dominant religion of those they wanted to influence. It was a purely business decision and a very cynical one at that.

Thanks for the intelligent input.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: theantediluvian

And yet I wonder in how many churches in black neighborhoods have politicians pushed their campaigns and used the "bully pulpit" to push their agendas?

From the article:

Initially, businessmen outsourced this campaign to an unlikely set of champions: ministers. Though this decision seemed unorthodox, the logic was laid out clearly in private. “Recent polls indicate that America’s clergymen are a powerful influence in determining the thinking and acting of the people in the economic realm,” noted one organizer, and so business leaders should “enlist large numbers of clergymen” to “act as minutemen, carrying the message upon all proper occasions throughout their several communities.”

Business was recognizing just that!

You might want to read the article.

It's not saying it's bad for the country or good - just documenting the cool and calculating manner of Big Business in the the use of religion in 'public relations.

Imagine no religion, it's easy if you try.

John Lennon tried to save the world, and no one listened.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: FyreByrd

“the only antidote is a revival of American patriotism and religious faith.”

A tactic used by the very man that proved to the world that this tactic not only works, but will eventually drive an entire country to it's own demise; Hitler.

Ultra-nationalism and invoking the name of god has become the main tactics used by certain political ideologies. You're not a patriot unless you believe in god, country and regurgitate the same rhetoric/propaganda that their ideological leaders do.

Of course, this is to the detriment of not only the entire country, but religion and conservatism as well.

Shall I quote Sinclair Lewis now - and get into a whole other topic area?

I was trying to keep the thread informational.

But if you insist:

Attributed to Sinclair Lewis:

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

- Sinclair Lewis

not a direct quote from Sinclair Lewis, but a description of Sinclair's point about nationalism and religion in It Can't Happen Here