Can Muslims Answer These Conundrums?

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Mohammed died very painfully and crying out for mercy from allah for blasphemy.

Why would Mohammed cry out for mercy, his followers then waited four days for him to resurrect, which he never did. Mohammed died, therefore he cannot be is.

That's Hadith, should I post it?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

What proof?

A man said he was a messenger, that is all. Doesn't mean he was, only that he said he was.

By your requirement, then Joseph Smith is also an end-time prophet. Would you accept him as one?

Was Ahura Mazda also an acceptable god to you? If you say that Allah is merely the word for God, then you can insert any name to make it fit.

Would it be therefore acceptable to say "There is no God but Ahura Mazda and Mohammed is his messenger"? Acceptable, yes or no?

lol, see this is your problem, you are in such a rush to find issues with Islam that you don't bother to read the Quran in full before you come up with your issues.

It wasn't just the prophet that said he was the messenger, Allah in the Quran says that he is the last and final messenger sent to humanity, and after reading the quran, those who accept it as the word of God, accept everything that God has said in the book. Allah did not talk about accepting Ahura Mazda as a god (this is shirk), allah did not talk about Jospeh Smith as a Messenger either.

You really need to slow down and read more about what you are contending.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Mohammed died very painfully and crying out for mercy from allah for blasphemy.

Why would Mohammed cry out for mercy, his followers then waited four days for him to resurrect, which he never did. Mohammed died, therefore he cannot be is.

That's Hadith, should I post it?

Quran 33:40

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things.


^^ Allah is saying this in the Quran

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes bring forward the hadith of where you quoted that from.

a reply to: WarminIndy
I have to say, WarminIndy, you have a habit of being confused by confusions you yourself created. In this case, a lot of it seems to be applying english rules of grammar on another language.

For example, you make a big issue of the Shahada. Let me explain that here to you.
In it's entirety, it is:
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

An exact word for word translation of it would be something like:
لا (la): No
إله (ilaha): god
إلا (ila): but/except
الله (Allah): The God
محمد (Muhammad): Muhammad (or 'One who is praiseworthy', if you want to get technical)
رسول (rasul): messenger
الله (Allah): The God

Notice a lack of ises and wases and weres? Those are put there for your benefit. The arabic language features no copulas.

As far as "there could be many gods!" goes, here is what the Quran says in response to that:

Translation of Surah Al-Anbiya, verse 22:
If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!

Translation of Surah Al-Muminoon, verse 91:
No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have championed what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the things they attribute to Him!

As for Surah An-Nahl's verse 51, you brought up the multiple perspectives of narrative (1st and 2nd person, I guess?) in the other thread as well, I don't see how you find this so confusing. How would you expect God to talk about himself in a way that explains God, the supernatural, religion etc, in the form of a guidebook to everyone? If you're using this as some sort of proof that it was written by someone else, that makes no sense either.

And finally, with verse 62 of Surah Baqarah, you display a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam. The Sabians, the Jews, the (original, at least) Christians, worship the same God. The ancient Persians may well have worshiped the 1 God (according to Islam, every people were sent a messenger for their time and place, although some may have distorted the message later. Muhammad was sent as the last and final messenger for all mankind). There is only 1 God. God is God. Do you believe in multiple gods?

a reply to: WarminIndy

There is an ultimate irony of someone who believes that God, all powerful, had to incarnate into space time and die so people's sins could be forgiven accusing others of cognitive dissonance. If God is all powerful he didn't need to have a kid. We all can be forgiven without any intermediary. Also, Jesus himself in the NT asks God for not having to go through with the crucifixion. How can he be all powerful then? Cognitive dissonance. Like Paul arguing with Jesus original disciples to not follow the Jewish Law. Like who knew Jesus better? A man who never met him but had a vision (and used to persecute Christians) or the people who followed him around in the Flesh for a few years? Cognitive dissonance...

But if you feel a connection, who am I to question you on those things? To you your religion, to me mine.

But you trying to point out cognitive dissonance (with the poorest knowledge of Islamic thought possible) is laughable. I mean, it would be hypocritical of you to point out cognitive dissonance in Islam while missing the humongous plethora of cognitive dissonance in your religion, except your knowledge is too small to even make any kind of argument.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Mohammed died very painfully and crying out for mercy from allah for blasphemy.

Why would Mohammed cry out for mercy, his followers then waited four days for him to resurrect, which he never did. Mohammed died, therefore he cannot be is.

That's Hadith, should I post it?

I am still waiting on the source of this supposed Hadith...

a reply to: WarminIndy

Your previous thread:

I am a Christian so draw your conclusions of mine after this post.

This thread:

Garbage. A christian trying to manipulate some words ascribed to other religion. This thread should be on the bin.

originally posted by: mekhanics
a reply to: WarminIndy

Your previous thread:

I am a Christian so draw your conclusions of mine after this post.

This thread:

Garbage. A christian trying to manipulate some words ascribed to other religion. This thread should be on the bin.

So you can't resolve the condundrum either?

Listen, you can believe however you want, that is your right. The problem is that there are very many ambiguous and contradictory claims in the Quran, and these contradictions in the shahada are used to convert people who might not know otherwise.

I asked if they could be resolved, no one has other than to tell me "It's in the Quran, therefore it is true". I merely want to know why such a book would claim to be clear when it isn't.

Not one single Muslim has said on this thread "There are some Muslims who do this, or there are some Muslims who do that". One person mentioned Salafishm, but no one has answered why Muslims must say that Mohammed IS the messenger.

Just because the Quran says it does not make it so, and it is the same criticism heaped upon Christians to allow textual criticism. When a religion does not allow textual criticism, what does that say for the religion?

The religious leader WAS a man who people claim was named Mohammed, the man spread his "religion" at the point of death by the sword. And yet no one is addressing the fact that not one single verse in the Quran can be supported outside of itself, because Muslims on here do not want the Hadiths or Sunnah to be presented, because they know what those say. There is going to have to be more evidence other than a bunch of Muslims saying it is true, simply because the Quran says it is true.

WHAT evidence is there that Mohammed came to this "revelation" while in a cave by himself? Just because he said so is not good enough.

And THAT'S what you require of Christians to provide, so ask the same question of Muslims. And that is not trolling, it is asking for the same textual study to be examined by others outside of their faith. If that is not permissible, then please don't defend what is not permitted.

Well, I'm not a Muslim. (I'm a Taoist, doncha know? ), but religion is not science or maths. witness in this sense means "I recognise"/"I accept that". Don't be so logical or pedantic.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You have the debate skills of a 2nd grader. It's already been pointed out that there is no IS or WAS in the shahada. You haven't asked WHY Muhammad is included in the shahada, your whole trip has been the difference between IS and WAS and now that you've lost that debate you're changing the goal post.

The first part of the shahda testifies to the concept of unity, Tawhid. The concept has many philosophical implications to those who accept it, one of which is that spirituality and reality cannot be fractured. Metaphysically the concept of Unity has deep implications, as the Greeks like Pythagoras and Plato intuited through philosophy. Islam took it to another level compared to the Greeks, and to a believer it reminds one to never let something fractured become a source of worship, such as wealth, fame, humans, money, etc.. It also implied to see the connection of everything as that unity includes nature being the signs of Allah. But it's more than holism and all this too, so God's Unity is always beyond everything I just said as well, but it is also a philosophical consequence of that Unity, depending on WHO you ask. (Any philosophy can also become a thing of worship accidentally which is to be avoided.)

The second part, is that by stating that Muhammad is (was on Earth and is in the afterlife, as heaven is beyond our time and space) a messenger, the last prophet, one affirms that his historical life bears significance for our understanding of this Unity of God, and the Quran. Thus his character, which in Islamic thought is one of beauty, charity, truthfulness and justice, are historical examples of how a human being lives the implications of God's message. So By attesting to Muhammad's prophethood one considers the Quran's message for taking care of orphans, stopping female infanticide, as well as stopping usury. It;s a message that social justice and looking after the weak and poor must go along with spirituality. So obviously there are moral, social, philosophical, and spiritual implications stemming from Muhammad's prohethood. And between these two main poles of the shahda, there have been numerous ways that Muslims have understood themselves historically and within different cultures.

Obviously to you, who will only read anti-Islam sites versus deep books by Muslims, both these implications will only conjure all your demonized projections unto an self fashioned other. While I, who grew up Christian will continually lose respect for Christians (even though I know there are many good ones out there so I hate saying that) through your exemplar of misinformed arrogance. Other people on the fence with Christianity who are also considering Islam will read your poorly researched uninformed attempts at discrediting Islam and may also turn away from Christianity as they will associate it with your juvenile bigotry. Maybe they'll have the same experience as I has 11 years ago, where I was disgusted with my Christian teachers when I found out most of what they said about Islam is a lie. I was researching Islam heavily and wanted to have honest discussions about it, but most of them were just like you, spewing forth uniformed garbage that held no water for someone who has done their homework, so I took the shahada. It's like they thought that propaganda one liners would actually work for someone who was actually heavily researching reading and discussing with Muslims. Boy, do those propaganda one liners back fire.Thus you are making Christianity look bad, just as Muslims or people of all other faiths who are ignorant may make their religion look bad as well. Congratulations! assalam alaykum!

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Mohammed died very painfully and crying out for mercy from allah for blasphemy.

Why would Mohammed cry out for mercy, his followers then waited four days for him to resurrect, which he never did. Mohammed died, therefore he cannot be is.

That's Hadith, should I post it?

I am still waiting on the source of this supposed Hadith...

Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 724 Narrated 'Aisha: I heard the Prophet and listened to him before his death while he was leaning his back on me and saying, "O Allah! Forgive me, and bestow Your Mercy on me, and let me meet the companions

The man had said previously that Allah had already forgiven him of all his sins. So why the need to cry out for mercy and forgiveness?

a reply to: AudioOne

La ilaha illa Allah wa-Muhammad rasul Allah. There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah

Is that clear enough?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AudioOne

La ilaha illa Allah wa-Muhammad rasul Allah. There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah

Is that clear enough?

Your pulling my leg now right?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Dude, this is pathetic. What's with your ridiculous fascination with Islam? Seriously. I always see you spouting ridiculous stuff about my religion when you literally don't know what you're talking about. It's like a child who learns a curse word then starts using it in every possible scenario, whether it makes sense or not.

As for our declaration of faith: It makes perfect sense if you understood even the basic concept of Islam. Islam is nothing more than submitting to God. That's it. It has nothing to do with any region, language or anything else. Islam is nothing more than the conscious act of submitting to God. And the path of Islam is a path of trying to improve our standing with God.

So by declaring that there is no god but Allah, we're declaring that we are a believer. That phrase can be translated as either of these: 1. There's no god but Allah. 2. There's no deity but God. 3. There's no deity but Allah. If you had even a drop of respect & asked Muslims what experiences led us to convert to Islam, you'd see that most of us have had personal experiences which serve as proof to us. I know exactly the series of events that led me to drop to my knees & pray to God for the 1st time & they are clear proofs to me.

The second part depends on the denomination. Some Shiite denominations even add an additional part about the Prophet Muhammad's son-in-law Ali. When we acknowledge the Qur'an is genuine, it serves as proof that the Prophet Muhammad had to have been one of God's Messengers. Because he literally wasn't capable of composing the Qur'an, seeing as he could neither read nor write. But the Qur'an is so intricate, rhythmic, and full of knowledge that it's impossible for a person to have written it. Does that make sense to you?

Any other questions?

originally posted by: WarminIndy


Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 724 Narrated 'Aisha: I heard the Prophet and listened to him before his death while he was leaning his back on me and saying, "O Allah! Forgive me, and bestow Your Mercy on me, and let me meet the companions

The man had said previously that Allah had already forgiven him of all his sins. So why the need to cry out for mercy and forgiveness?

First point: This hadeeth is a FAR cry from what you put forward previously, proving that you are fabricating lies. At this point you have lost all credibility.

Second point: What is wrong with this hadeeth? Absolutely nothing, a Muslim is always seeking Allah for forgiveness throughout the day, through out their lifetime, constantly reciting Astaghfirullah in their head, this means seeking forgiveness. All Muslims will seek and cry for the mercy of Allah, especially before death or when death is near and there is a chance to seek forgiveness and mercy from Allah for anything bad that you may have said or any small sin or any sin for that matter that you may have committed.

Your knowledge of the Quran and Islamic practices is so weak, that I cannot take anything you write seriously any more.

I am wasting my time here, and will kindly exit this thread.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You do realize that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the SAME God...?

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam make up the majority of the Abrahamic Religions.

Abrahamic religions (also Semitic religions) are monotheistic religions of West Asian origin, emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him.

As of the early 21st century, it was estimated that 54% of the world's population (3.8 billion people) considered themselves adherents of the Abrahamic religions, about 30% of other religions, and 16% of no organized religion.

The largest Abrahamic religions in chronological order of founding are Judaism (1st millennium BCE), Christianity (1st century CE), and Islam (7th century CE); the Bahá'í Faith (19th century CE) is sometimes listed as well.

Origins and history[edit]
See also: Canaanite religion and Arabian mythology

Judaism regards itself as the religion of the descendants of Jacob, a grandson of Abraham. It has a strictly unitary view of God, and the central holy book for almost all branches is the Masoretic Text as elucidated in the oral Torah. In the 19th century and 20th centuries Judaism developed a small number of branches, of which the most significant are Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform.

Christianity began as a sect of Judaism[n 2] in the Mediterranean Basin[n 3] of the 1st century CE and evolved into a separate religion—the Christian Church—with distinctive beliefs and practices. Jesus is the central figure of Christianity, considered by almost all denominations to be divine, one person of a Triune God.[n 4] The Christian biblical canon is usually held to be the ultimate authority, alongside sacred tradition in some denominations (such as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy). Over many centuries, Christianity divided into three main branches (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant), dozens of significant denominations, and hundreds of smaller ones.

Islam arose in Arabia in the 7th century CE with a strictly unitary view of God. Muslims typically hold the Qur'an to be the ultimate authority, as revealed and elucidated through the teachings and practices of a central, but not divine prophet, Muhammad. The Islamic faith consider all Prophets and Messengers from Adam through the final messenger (Muhammad) to carry the same Islamic monotheistic principles. Soon after its founding Islam split into two main branches (Sunni and Shi'a), each of which now have a number of denominations.

Lesser-known Abrahamic religions, originally offshoots of Shi'a Islam, include the Bahá'í Faith[n 8] and Druze.[21]

en.wikipedia.org...

Did you know that the Virgin Mary is mentioned more in the Quran and is more revered than in the Bible?

How can one call themselves a true Christian if they are ignorant of this basic fact: Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the SAME God; believe in the same Angels; historical figures such as Moses, Jesus, Mary, etc....?

In the Middle East the word for God is ALLAH. Jesus would of referred to God with the same label since he resided in that region...

Allah (English pronunciation: /ˈælə/ or /ˈɑːlə/;[1] Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤˈlˤɑːh] ( listen)) is the Arabic word for God.

The word has cognates in other Semitic languages, including Elah in Aramaic, ʾĒl in Canaanite and Elohim in Hebrew.

It is used mainly by Muslims to refer to God in Islam, but it has also been used by Arab Christians since pre-Islamic times.

en.wikipedia.org...

HOW do you witness that a man who lived and died 1,400 years ago IS?

To witness means that you actually have seen or heard Mohammed when he was here. That means that to logically make sense, then YOU have to WITNESS Mohammed IS a messenger.

The same way you believe in Jesus. Were you there 2000 years ago to witness Jesus' existence?

To witness means that you actually have seen or heard JESUS when he was here. That means that to logically make sense, then YOU have to WITNESS JESUS on the cross.

Please explain to us how you overcame your cognitive dissonance in order to fit this into your witness.

I suppose it is the same way many are ignorant of the fact Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the SAME GOD; ANGELS; AND PROPHETS of old.

"Cognitive Dissonance" shall surely play out now...huh?

a reply to: AudioOne

Amen, I happen to agree that Plato and Buddha were also prophets.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

Would it be therefore acceptable to say "There is no God but Ahura Mazda and Mohammed is his messenger"? Acceptable, yes or no?

Yes, you can say that because Zoroastrianism also teaches ONE God and one internal Holy Spirit that will guide all men to the truth.

The Quran says Allah has all the best names. And Ahura Mazda is my personal favorite.

Elohim, Brahman these are also a few of the fine names attributed to the ONE God who created everything.

So yes Mohammed was a prophet of Ahura Mazda because Allah and Ahura Mazda are the same God. Who also happens to be the father of Christ, our Messiah.

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

The Koran speaks of 2 different messengers. The Koran does not call Mohammed the last messenger. The Koran says that a messenger comes who unites the Jews, Christians, Muslims and Sabians.

Mohammed did not unite the religions so he cannot be the last prophet. This is a false teaching.

This is the same problem for the Jews not accepting Jesus as the Christ. The Jews believed all the prophecies about Christ would be fulfilled in a single generation and through a single man.

The Koran as well as every major religious texts calls for another prophet.