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For you rationalists out there, how do you argue this point?

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posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 01:05 PM
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One point before I begin. I will assume you mean God in a classical definition to let personal interpretation stay out of the discussion.

Free will can exist in a predetermined universe. One is soft free will which is a stoic move. The actions play out the way they will and you are free to determine your disposition towards it. The second is the multiverse.

If everything is predetermined and known before along our fourth dimensional line, every choice or deviation from that line exists in an alternate possible universe. This however is the apparent one and you can never realize the others, or know which one you are in, maybe looping between them all.

I don't know how what we call our world is structured but I can reconcile free will and predetermination enough to sleep at night.




posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 01:11 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Ghost147

Old religions are just hypocritical. You have to abandon some forms of logic to believe in them.


I agree. That's why I don't try to instil logic in those that are beyond-all-hope-religious. The one's that were just fed the information but are susceptible to rational thought, however, are the ones that can still be saved from the total-close-minded mentality.

I often find that discussing with the absolutely-religious individuals very eye opening for those who aren't so devout. They tend to realize just how bonkers some of the fundamentalist views are; then ironically the one's who try so hard to convert the masses actually drive them away due to their aggressive, out-there nature.



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 01:19 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

The moment a "free will" decision is made in this reality there is an immediate reaction. That action precipitates the following reaction. If there is a God that is all-knowing then it exists on a non-conform construct of time that is devoid of the constraints of this reality and would then be aware of any free will decisions being made in this reality before they actually do happen.

I agree with you on your stance about religion and I do not have a God, I have a higher power that I believe does know ahead of time what choices I will make and sometimes tries to warn me off of them. Still, ultimately, we do live in a world governed by the collective "free will" choices of others.



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 01:44 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

If he gave us free will and watched it to the end, then he now knows everything. Did he know everything that would happen before he created us? The texts are silent on this question.

I imagine a God so intelligent that he could forsee, within his mind, every action that would be taken before it happens and therefore before he said "let thier be light", he already knew what we would do with our freewill.

As a man I can do a pretty good job of knowing how my children will react in any given situation. I imagine the creator knows how we will react in every situation.

edit on 5-6-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

Yes, but what you're describing isn't omniscience. God is supposed to have total, absolute knowledge. True omniscience is just that. You knowing how your children will react is just an educated supposition. God knowing how we would react would be absolute and infallible. There is no room for error in that equation, and if it is absolute, then we cannot step outside his view. Therefore we are bound by his omniscience.



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 01:50 PM
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originally posted by: searcherfortruth
a reply to: Ghost147

The moment a "free will" decision is made in this reality there is an immediate reaction. That action precipitates the following reaction. If there is a God that is all-knowing then it exists on a non-conform construct of time that is devoid of the constraints of this reality and would then be aware of any free will decisions being made in this reality before they actually do happen.


would that not then be considered bound by omniscience, rather than really being free will though?



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 02:05 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

If you see it that way. Just because he knows what I am going to do, it doesn't change the struggle and education that is life. I have freewill regardless of what God knows about me and my future.

I can only see it from this one perspective. Anything other than freewill is a trap.

Also I don't believe that our freewill choices are predestined. But the outcome of those decisions has been predestined. If that makes since?
edit on 5-6-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

I fully accept that freewill exists. The issue I have is when people say there is a god, and then describe that god with specific traits. In this case it is omniscience.

If there is a god that knows all things, then he knows every choice you will make in the future. If he knows your future, and if people say he is infallible, then there is no way we could choose to do something that he did not already know we were going to choose. There for there is no free will if there is also omniscience.

There simply cannot be both. If, on the other hand, you believed that god was not infallible, or that he was not omniscience, then free will is perfectly compatible with life.

However, it is a logical fallacy to have both concepts exist at the same time.



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

For me it is simple and not contradictory. It's simply a puzzle that is slightly beyond our comprehension. But that is where my faith kicks in and where we differ.

What you see as impossible, I see as beyond my comprehension, but not past God's ability.

If what is infallible chose to teach infallibility through failure, I can accept that. This is a cause and effect relationship.
edit on 5-6-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 02:35 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

This is the perfect example as to why I created this topic in the first place.

It's not that this concept is beyond our comprehension, it's that reality is ignored and instead faith is used to prevent rational thought, thus saving your belief. Why not hold all your same beliefs, but drop the omniscient trait from your description of a god as it interferes with your need to be able to control your own fate (free will)?



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147
God knowing how we would react would be absolute and infallible. There is no room for error in that equation, and if it is absolute, then we cannot step outside his view. Therefore we are bound by his omniscience.


You're thinking that God's knowledge is your will, instead of thinking that God's knowledge is [of] your will?



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 03:16 PM
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"The problem is choice".



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 04:00 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

Religion provides 2 primary things: control for the overlords, and comfort for the masses.

If you take away the benevolent God, you remove the comfort for the masses (which will remove the control for the overlords).

You see the conundrum....



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 07:42 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Ghost147

Old religions are just hypocritical. You have to abandon some forms of logic to believe in them.


I agree. That's why I don't try to instil logic in those that are beyond-all-hope-religious. The one's that were just fed the information but are susceptible to rational thought, however, are the ones that can still be saved from the total-close-minded mentality.

I often find that discussing with the absolutely-religious individuals very eye opening for those who aren't so devout. They tend to realize just how bonkers some of the fundamentalist views are; then ironically the one's who try so hard to convert the masses actually drive them away due to their aggressive, out-there nature.


You make it sound like you are proselytising your non belief in God.
Your religion is so openly on display, you inerrant faith

You ever stop and think, look in the mirror and say.

"I have no evidence in anything, have seen nothing but I am a zealot", because you are and should say that.

I would consider you an absolutely-religious individual, that you are beyond-all-hope-religious, a zealot, a modern atheist Pharisee who thinks his better than everyone else


and just to be clear, your faith in atheism eclipses my faith in christianity


God is described as father Son and Holy Spirit though He is one, go figure.
You dont get all the answers



posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 03:07 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147

how can you argue with any religious fanatic
what is the point lol



posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 03:09 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan



sorry but I wished my dad was like you



posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 03:13 AM
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a reply to: MimiSia




posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 03:14 AM
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originally posted by: Ghost147
I placed this in general chat because the topic is on the nature of the debate/argument, rather than the actual implications behind it.

I'm very active in theological debating. Religion, to me, is nothing more than fairy tales for adults. I, personally, haven't found any evidence in the universe that suggests any form of deity had a hand in any of it; especially one tied to religious scripture (as the writings always contradict and disprove themselves).

So when a religion claims that their god is Omniscient, or "all knowing", they usually mean that this omniscience is constantly ongoing, and the god in question really does know everything about everything. They know the future, the past, the present, ever position of every atom in the universe and where they will all be in 1,000,000,000,000 years from now.

Those same religions tend to also claim that we have "free will".

The argument, of course, is that free will cannot exist when there is something out there that knows every decision that you will ever make, even years before you were born (or the planet formed, for that matter). If something knows every decision you will make, and they are an infallible being, then there is no way for us to escape their absolute knowledge of the future. There for rendering free will an illusion.

To me, this issue is beyond obvious. However, for the followers of the religions that believe this to be true, they have their ways of taking positions which don't really explain away the concept at all. They never fully grasp the problem at hand.

Now, I've tried every way I can imagine to explain how the two concepts cannot coexist, and still the conversation becomes entirely circular.

Perhaps I'm not finding the correct way to word my position, so I ask those who do understand the conflict to help me out here. How would you describe the issue to someone who is currently unable to accept it is an issue in the first place?

I understand that some people simply will reject all information in order to protect their belief system, those are not generally the ones I'm trying to help. It is the individuals who have simply been mislead and fed false information that are the individuals I'm trying to reach out to and converse with.



so your only posting this to ask for help in convincing others of your stance? has it occurred to you that it might actually be you who has a flimsy stance?

it is not sensible for you to say god simply knows what the future WILL hold, when more likely he instead simply knows what all POTENTIAL futures can hold, and your free will is the one rogue element in the mix which no matter your decision he knows the outcomes, this would allow you your free will while also allowing an omniscient being,

also, i hadnt yet even included the concept of time to such a being, you perhaps can try and think of the position of one who exists outside of times constraints as one who is at the end of time, when in the future no one in the past has free will because of course by then their decisions have already been made, but that isnt to say they didnt have free will at the time of their decisions,

you cannot look back on your ancestors and say they had no free will simply because you can see now the decisions they made after the fact,
similarly a god could not say you do not have free will simply because he can already see the decisions you have made, him being in the future.

the problem with you feeling this means you have no free will is basically you failing to realize that a god would not exist solely in your present moment, it is akin to your ancestors feeling they have no free will simply because they know that their lineage can look back and see what decisions they made in the past.

in the moment of a decision, think on how others will know what decision you make after wards. does the fact they are going to know your decision mean you have no free will before the decision? of course not.

lets say some other dude had a time machine and could go back in time and watch you make a decision that he already knew you would make having come from the future, does that mean you didnt have free will? simply because he had advance knowledge? no of course it doesnt.

you see i think you are summing up the idea of an omniscient being in your OP as if it is some simple concept, i argue that the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient being who exists in all of time and space is not a simple concept to grasp or argue at all, it is rather a vague notion we can barely imagine.



posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 03:20 AM
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originally posted by: borntowatch
You ever stop and think, look in the mirror and say.

"I have no evidence in anything, have seen nothing but I am a zealot", because you are and should say that.


On the contrary, I do have evidence for my position. That is why science is not faith based. We simply draw conclusions around the evidence we find.


originally posted by: borntowatch
I would consider you an absolutely-religious individual, that you are beyond-all-hope-religious, a zealot, a modern atheist Pharisee who thinks his better than everyone else


and just to be clear, your faith in atheism eclipses my faith in christianity


Well, I'm not quite sure how I could have "Faith in atheism" considering it is a stance without belief. On the contrary to your claims, I am not a "modern Atheist", more so of a militant one; within reason of course. If an individual (religious or not) makes claims that state god is this or that, or the universe is driven by a deity, or that so and so scientific theory is [Misinformation here], then I will readily correct those falicies.

Do I think I'm better than everyone else? Of course not. However, there are a lot of individuals out there who make claims that are completely irrational or simply ignorant. Why should we condone the action of correcting those claims?



originally posted by: MimiSia
a reply to: Ghost147

how can you argue with any religious fanatic
what is the point lol


I find that the best way to show others how religious fundamentalism is so obscure and inaccurate is by debating a religious fundamentalist (RF). The "RF" usually tends to be very short tempered and make excessively bold and unsubstantiated claims. The readers, who may not even be part of the conversation, tend to be very turned-away from a RF due to their disposition alone. It also allows external readers to see the extreme version of religious theological views, whilst also learning what scientific/rational arguments have to say.

It's not so much trying to change the mind of the RF, but more so those that choose to watch from the sidelines.



posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 03:23 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147



The argument, of course, is that free will cannot exist when there is something out there that knows every decision that you will ever make, even years before you were born (or the planet formed, for that matter). If something knows every decision you will make, and they are an infallible being, then there is no way for us to escape their absolute knowledge of the future. There for rendering free will an illusion.

To me, this issue is beyond obvious. However, for the followers of the religions that believe this to be true, they have their ways of taking positions which don't really explain away the concept at all. They never fully grasp the problem at hand.


I am afraid your mind is too small to comprehend that paradox.



edit on 6-6-2015 by kennyb72 because: add quote




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