What is the place in our society that Cathlyn Jenner or Bruce Jenner deserve to have?

a reply to: The angel of light

Rather than looking at this from a negative aspect, here's a positive thought process worth pondering:


Maybe this all just simply boils down to one thing...

Jenner is a brave soul who has decided to put herself out there for the world to see in an attempt to break new ground and get a conversation going on a subject that has been, for far too long, taboo up until now.

If not Jenner sticking her neck out and breaking the ice, then it inevitably would have been someone else at some point down the road.

Somebody has to be the first to push the conversation to the forefront, and Jenner seems to have succeeded at doing that.

Perhaps this is a good thing rather than a bad thing ?

21st century progress and all that...

Well this is unusual...
The first two replies said everything that needed saying.

Though it is amusing to watch Progressives struggle to wrap their heads around something they are so sure they want to champion.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

One thing is the gender with which a person has born and other the one he or she decides to get or transform into later. One thing is what nature has given and other what we can acquire artificially. You can't deny the past, you can create a new present and future, but what it was before is History and you can't rewrite it, the most you can do in a sane state of mind is to assign to the weight you consider useful as experience.

I know people that suffers myopia and they don't feel insulted if somebody ask about their optical problem, I know people that suffers autism and they don't feel insulted to recognize it, I know people that suffers astigmatism and they don't consider an insult to recognize that, or asthma or many other "wrong" things that nature can give.

Hellen Keller was born deaf, blind and Mute and she didn't went into the world successfully as one of the best authors this country and the English letters ever has produced by blaming others of the limitations she had since birth, it was precisely her admirable ability to deal with them and use them as a source of inspiration what made her an outstanding example of self superation.

Her example is the one of to assume what many consider a limitation as a challenge, seeing from the perspective of positive attitude.

I don't know why there is too much trend of self defense in a thread that since the beginning clearly stated that we are not coming here to demonize no body, I feel that there is a lot of self pity in to see the things in that way.

Everybody is above considerations of Gender a human being, and gender is not the principal attribute of an individual in the human specie, a proof of that are the natural hermaphrodites.

Gender has nothing to do with to be more intelligent or more virtuous, so why there is so much interest in to be obsessed with it?

why suddenly what falls of the chest of a person or from the belly of other becomes more important than anything else, so important that determines his or her happiness or respectability?

is that more important than to be honest, to be lovable, to be comprehensive, or to show more interest in what the person can do for others than what the society can do for him or her? Why it is more important to be male or female than for instance to be creative, to be helpful to others, to create something with ones talents?

Mr or Mrs Jenner won Gold medals in Olympia, it was not that enough to fill her or his life with satisfaction? he also married happily and got a family, Do you know how many people are in the world that never have had his or her fame and in spite of that they are not living of their self pity.

Happiness is nothing material , you can't buy or sell it, that is a mirage caused by the consumption materialistic mentality that has taken control of our society, happiness is like love, it is a state of mind, if you can't accept it just check a child and see that he or she can be immensely happy with really few things.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: CranialSponge

If I wake up tomorrow and decide I have been a tiger in a man's body all my life, and start walking around town roaring and chasing animals, will I be a hero for having the courage to be who I really am?

Or do I have to go through counseling first?

Your phrasing, "What place in our society does he/she deserve to have?" concerns me. I am not sure anyone "deserves" a place in society. Acceptance, by society or individual, is something to be earned not expected. It is your behavior and your demeanor towards others that will determine what role you will have in a society. If you act like a barbaric fool, you should probably expect to be treated like one, not welcomed with open arms and showered with gifts and praise.

When I was growing up the lgbt battle cry was "what we do in the privacy of our own homes is none of your business". But then it wasn't in the privacy of home, it was marching down the middle of Main street in chaps with the butt cut out. I think a lot of people felt like they gave an inch and were taken for a mile. Every concession made doesn't end the agenda, it only shifts it farther to the left. You can only stretch a rubber band so tight before it snaps back. I think this one is going to leave a mark when it happens.

The world is heading down the crapper and this guy is a major contributor. Who cares if he wants to play dress-up. He's a non-story.

Focus on the real issues - ISIS, the financial condition of the country, our failed foreign policy, our nutless president.

Gee, maybe Obama should go the Bruce Jenner route. Just a thought.

The common state (i.e. the most prevalent, standard state) of humans is that the ratio of sexual hormones will match the manifestation of the physical sexual organs.

Rarely, this normal standard development doesn't happen. Such an oddity results in gender dysphoria, or what is a non-standard ratio of hormones and or behavioral/psychological queues.

Such a state may be treated by:

1) Behavioral therapy.

2) Hormonal therapy.

or, what our degenerate society prefers:

3) Cutting off your penis, lobbing off your testicles, turning the skin inside out and forming it into the idea of a vagina. Don't forget to dress up in women's clothes, put on makeup, and prance around like you are a special snowflake.

It's someone like a lizard that lost a leg. Instead of growing the leg back, it just mutilates the rest of it's legs and shaves off the stumps. It doesn't forget to tell the other animals that it is now a snake.

Don't get me wrong. You can do WHATEVER you want with your own body.

It's just a bit primitive. Let's just wait until we can upload our minds into Avatars/Androids/Robots/Etc...

Instead, we are doing these embarrassing things.

The Aliens are laughing I tell you!

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

I'm actually a box of chocolate mints with the mind of a butterfly.

I was just born in this human body!

RESPECT ME! I'M NOT ILL.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Dear CranialSponge,

Let me refer to the vita of Bruce Jenner, because as far as I can see Cathlyn is still in her first year of life, legally talking about:

This is a man that grew up in a stable family, in a descent home, he did his first try to classify for international competitions in 1972, he couldn't but became famous at 27 years old, he got one of the most desired awards in athleticism in his first try in an Olympia.

He married first time at age 23, it is true that he divorced by he had two more chances and so married again in being still young. He had children in each marriage, a total of 6, He got a degree at 24 in spite of his battle with dyslexia. He was a personality long time before to take this decision.

Apart of the satisfaction of his achievements and the love that such a big family has given to him, he has the respect of his nation, of the world, the admiration of millions before to take this decision, young people that practice sport and believe in the fraternal spirit and principles of the Olympian code of ethics.

As Bruce he became business owner and also receive a lot of great opportunities in the media, acting in different roles in TV. He has been considered, in his masculine identity as a National Hero of the USA.

Now I have used the masculine pronoun all the time to enumerate those interesting positive aspects of the life of this human being because all of them were earned under a masculine identity.

We are not here to judge anybody, but I am just wondering why all those extremely desirable positive things were not good enough to make this person happy? there is a lot of people around the world that with much less than that have found satisfaction, serenity and inner peace.

Was the man of 65 years old less valuable or respectable to have earned the Arthur Ashe award years ago? was his battle with dyslexia and also his tremendous effort to finance his own athletic career not good enough for such recognition. As Bruce he worked in a job at the same time that was trying to classify for the Olympics, being his own sponsor , were not those real merits to gain that award. ESPY exists since 1993 and Billie Jean King ,a prominent member of the LGBT community got it in 1999.

What is the lesson here for the new Generations? that an almost unknown new legal person like Cathlyn Jenner deserved an award that during an entire life Bruce never received before? So now to decide change of gender deserves fame and recognition than sport, academic or professional merits can't even approach?

I am sure to don't be the only one to feel that there are very visible contradictions in the way society is reacting with respect to this decision, and I am not sure all the LGBT community also see this in a uniform way. After all it took entire lives of hard professional work to people like Pyotr Tchaikovsky, Rudolph Nureyev, Frida Kahlo, Michelangelo Buonarotti, Sergei Diaghilev, Martina Navratilova, Billie J King, Montgomery Clift, Rock Hudson, George Sand and others to receive awards and recognitions.

www.foxnews.com...

There are lot of admirable women around the world that deserve to receive recognitions and they know their effort is unnoticed, but has a tremendous social impact, they are probably the economic support of their families, some of the are single mothers.

How can you tell them that now they are competing not only with the traditional gender discrimination, plus facing the one of all the men that would follow this example and jump into the feminine scene?.

This is just a remark of how diverse are the reactions to the same fact and the way to understand positive attitude in life, as well as social Progress.

Jenner deserves all the respect of this world as a human being, as well as all the consideration, to be treated with dignity, but the fact to be a famous person does not mean that all what is doing is equally valid, could be an example to follow or even admirable. Just in February of this year this same person was involved in a terribly sad incident that took the life of a woman and caused injuries to eight more people.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

I think it is a very complicated situation. I personally do not know Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner)...to really understand why this person made the choices they did...I feel I would have to know them.

I am wondering what does Heaven think of all of this?

a reply to: The angel of light

What is the lesson here for the new Generations? that an almost unknown new legal person like Cathlyn Jenner deserved an award that during an entire life Bruce never received before? So now to decide change of gender deserves fame and recognition than sport, academic or professional merits can't even approach?

ESPN says the recipients of the award best embody the spirit of Ashe, a legendary tennis star, "possessing strength in the face of adversity, courage in the face of peril and the willingness to stand up for their beliefs no matter what the cost."

The Arthur Ashe Courage Award (sometimes called the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage or Arthur Ashe for Courage Award) is an award that is part of the ESPY Awards. Although it is a sport-oriented award, it is not limited to sports-related people or actions, as it is presented annually to individuals whose contributions "transcend sports". Often these transcendent figures are also athletes who have been at the top of their sport, such as Ali, Dean Smith, Freeman, and Caitlyn Jenner (formerly known as Bruce Jenner).

Arthur Ashe Courage Award

We live in interesting times. Many people around the world are not only ready to look at things differently, but are also willing to change their minds about things we've been more or less instructed to believe are always true. Reason - not tradition, fable, myth, persecution or judgement is about to win the day

Caitlyn is being given this award for being courageous. Your OP represents the thinking of a great many people. She went ahead and did what she had to do in spite of all of that. I'm pretty sure they put some thought into the people that they consider for this award. The fact that you don't understand why she deserves it and are willing to sit in judgement is where the courage part comes in

Pretty simple

a reply to: caladonea

Dear Caladonea,

As you have said this is an extremely complicate issue, and possibly in the future we would have a better perspective of it. This is not just a personal decision, it is a family matter, it is affecting the lives of 6 persons that Jenner procreated as their father, but also now is a political issue.

It is clear that a woman can't be father of anybody, that is absolutely clear, but he has decided , invoking his civil rights, to take a way the fatherhood of 6 innocent people that admired and respected him along all their Lives with a kind of love that can't be replaced easily. I am wondering where are the civil rights of those young men and women, plus the ones of their descendants?

I think there is enough space in the heart of God for people that for one or other reason were not called to live in a traditional two gender marriage.

Jesus was clear that not everybody was born for such a life, but also his only mention of this so special condition in the gospels is linked with the topic of divorce, that is interesting, and in some way intriguing. I believe is possibly one of the best signals he gave us of his gifts of prophecy, if you see what is going on right now in the world.

“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)

Notice that he linked two situations that apparently are not connected in the same talk, Divorce and other sexual preferences, why he did this? well again it is likely that Jesus knew in advance that we were going to see cases like this one in the future, and that now we have in front of us.

www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org...

sweettp.tripod.com...

www.gaychristian101.com...

Lets give a glance the entire chapter of the Gospel inn which this teaching was given:

St. Mt 19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

From the religious point of view if what Jenner says now is true he would have committed systematically adultery in his entire adult life, he has cheated three times against 3 women and moreover against his own children, that is a really grave sin.

That is not precisely something to be proud of it, or to be taken as an example of courage, because I don't see how to connect courage with to go in life lying to people that sincerely loved him. Maybe in Politics is possible, but in Religion there is no way to do it.

Who is guilty of all of this mess? Well this is something only God knows perfectly, but I suspect that not only Bruce or now Cathlyn are responsible, there is an entire society that must assume also its own responsibility in all the pain that those 3 women and six children are exposed to. I am afraid that educators, religious leaders and also political ones have their own weight of guilt on this sad outcome.

Anyway one thing is sure, the person we are talking about parented other people though the masculine line of reproduction and that is something a woman can't do, so in spite of what is right now politically popular to say he belongs to a very different category even in the eyes of God, He will never be treated or judged by God as a woman. That is probably why Jesus used the world Eunuch to refer to this condition .

I am worried and afraid of all the arrogance that exist in behind a claim that human Law can change what nature has done. To declare that a natural man is a woman or conversely is not so much different than to decree that God does not exist. When we put a human authority, a judge or a Physician to decree what is the new gender of a person is clearly turning the back to God. Be careful with that, What is the risk on all this? well in 1912 somebody said with respect to a fascinating work of a naval engineering that it was a Ship that Not even God could sink, and we all know what was the final outcome of such enterprise.

www.boweryboogie.com...

Now, in the code of ethics of the Olympic spirit it is unacceptable the act of cheating, there is no space for it in any competition. Perhaps at least in that aspect Jenner has something to show in his life that was genuine, I'm sure as an athlete he is an example, but there other areas in which he even has recognized that he didn't do what is correct and he feels his life failed dramatically.

How can a journalist takes advantage of all this human drama and use a person in such personal tragedy and confusion to make Money? or a political organization to take advantage of this to promote their cause? Now what is the credibility of an award that uses this sad situation to promote itself? Why instead extremely valuable LGBT people like Rudolf Nureyev or Rod Hudson that were not living their entire lives of a lie didn't receive that recognition to their courage?

I am sorry perhaps is a smart strategy, but there are many smart things that people do that are shocking from the religious point of view, so it is not needed to be an Angel to guess what God may think on them.

One thing is Sure Jenner case has taught to us with his life a lesson that we are not going to forget.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

one question - what has jenner got to loose ?

Surely a religious opinion of this would not be to judge, to love all human beings and welcome them to a loving society filled with compassion and understanding

Caitlyn has the Right to any freedoms and Privileges as any other Human Being for one...

"Bruce" was a name given at birth, it didn't define him as "Male" he has always been Caitlyn inside

He can call himself whatever he wants. He's still a man.

a reply to: Restricted

Says who? You? ? God? Science? Nature? Proof?

at least backup your beliefs

a reply to: ignorant_ape

one question - what has jenner got to loose ?

I think the fact that you asked it shows how far we've come - but more than that it shows how far you've come

Jenner has been famous and respected for certain things in his life for quite a while. He's what - 66 now? Why now do you think?

There's a reason why it didn't happen sooner. This story has been in the tabloids for ages now - lot's of ugly, insulting rumor and innuendo, nasty (seriously nasty) jokes all over the media, his reputation questioned, his sanity questioned...his place in heaven questioned - even denied by some

So, - it's an interesting question you ask

Is this a trivial story? Is his transition less stressful or meaningful now in light of the overwhelming amount of support he's received after he ended all the speculation and gave that interview?

He had a lot to lose and so much gain - just depends on how you look at it. Now? The same - but, I'm betting he's now wishing he'd done it sooner. If he had done it sooner however, he may not have received the kind of support he's getting now

Timing is everything I guess :-)

P.S. ignorant_ape - when I said that about how far you've come - it wasn't a personal judgement or criticism. It just showed me you don't see this as a big deal

a reply to: The angel of light

He will never be treated or judged by God as a woman.

Or, God will see Cathlyn as Spirit and focus on how Loving Cathlyn was instead of God being obsessed with things of the flesh.

Be careful with that, What is the risk on all this? well in 1912 somebody said with respect to a fascinating work of a naval engineering that it was a Ship that Not even God could sink, and we all know what was the final outcome of such enterprise.

So, are you saying God kills people just to show off? God is Love, not arrogance. Love does not harm others just to look "cool" or "powerful".

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

No, Dear Siramirabilis,

I have clearly said in almost all my posts in this thread that the only one that can Judge Jenner, and give peace to his tormented soul, is God. No surgery is going to do what God can for him(er), s(he) is deceiving itself if thinks that and waste the rest of his(her) life and resources in Physicians, politicians or specialists that primarily want to profit of him(her).

I just have pointed that the Arthur Ashe ESPN award committee are not this year awarding a Person, not a human being, but just an isolated action in his life, that was not the norm but the exception by the way.

This is a person that is 65 years old and has contributed to the well being of millions by promoting sport along all that span life, and happen that he needed to dress as a woman to get the Award, that is absolutely absurd and in some way contradicts the definition of courage.

Along History there were many LGBT people that lived entire lives facing their condition bravely like Montgomery Clift, Rod Hudson or Rudolph Nureyev, went out many years before the age in what Jenner came out. I'm mentioning here famous people but everybody knows valuable lesbian or gay people that are part of their communities doing something really positive in their jobs or careers.

Now, neither of these three famous gay men figures even reached their 65 birthday, but happen that they decided to live with discretion and reserving their private life for themselves and the ones they loved, and that marks a huge difference with this case.

Rod Hudson never went beyond his only marriage, he quit on that point any possibility to pass to History as one of the greatest liars, Nureyev and Clift never married and they are in spite of that loved my millions that admired their great talent as artists.

Elton John is another example of how a LGBT person can assume his role in society without hurting other innocent people, he decided to constitute a home with a partner and he is also a nice father. All these 4 guys are profiles of courage for the LGBT community in the world and none was ever been awarded for that.

Billie J King already won the Arthur Ashe Award, but Martina Navratilova was never recipient of it. Billie Jean King, former World No. 1 player, said in 2006 that Navratilova is "the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player who's ever lived." In 2005, Tennis magazine selected her as the greatest female tennis player for the years 1965 through 2005. Tennis historian and journalist Bud Collins has called Navratilova "arguably, the greatest tennis player of all time."

Navratilova came out from a country behind the iron curtain, Czechoslovakia, in times in which communism used to discriminate and condemn homosexuality in any gender as a capitalist decadent vice.

We have still alive in America a great figure that deserves several times more that award that Jenner, it is Ricky Martin, a beautiful person that decided to come out before to continue his entire life lying and however he has respected a lot his children to never expose them to these kind of scandal that affects the Jenner ones. Martin has been along many years activist of the protection of Children against sexual harassment.

Johnny Weir, the American Olympic medal in figure skating, is still so much young probably to gain the Arthur Ashe, but at his 30 years he has already shown the courage that Jenner didn't have in more than twice as long of life.

Sorry you are the one that shows to be unable to separate your admiration for Jenner of an objective evaluation of what he or she is doing right now.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness