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What is the place in our society that Cathlyn Jenner or Bruce Jenner deserve to have?

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posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:12 PM
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My thoughts?

Who cares.

Why do people let this bother them? If they don't like the idea of it, turn off the TV and don't read the magazine. Walk away and don't allow it to be part of your reality.

It really is that simple.

What someone else says, does, or is has nothing to do with you and your reality -- until you allow it.

When you allow yourself to be worked up emotionally and mentally by someone else, you are giving away your power to them. Instead of having control over yourself, you are allowing another person to have control over how you think and feel.

And as for me & Jenner? I don't care. What that person does to their own body does nothing to mine. My world does not change because someone else changes their gender.




posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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it doesn't have any impact on my life, so therefore I have not thought about this situation, until now.

Bruce Jenner, was Bruce Jenner when he won his medal, therefore Bruce Jenner deserves to keep it. Bruce Jenner is still Bruce Jenner, minus a few parts, so this shouldn't even be up for debate.

Should Caitlyn have appeared on the front of Vanity Fair? They wanted her there, undoubtedly paid a decent sum, but it's got everyone talking, including us. Nice bit of marketing really, these publishers aren't foolish people, are they?



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:17 PM
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If Bruce/Caitlyn was the first person to publically announce they are transgender, I could see all this publicity. Just because Jenner is (semi) famous doesn't mean honors and accolades should be showered upon him/her.

As I've said before, he/she will have his/her 15 minutes of fame and then be forgotten like Lili Elbe, Christine Jorgensen...and Chaz Bono.

Much too much ado about nothing.

J



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

Deserve? How rude. They both are human beings.

Where are you coming from to ask where they "deserve" to be?

And should we decide the same thing of you?

"Deserve"?



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

Yes, we are not here to condemn, that includes Cathlyn Jenner. If Cathlyn Jenner is not hurting anyone but treating others as she would like to be treated, and loving her neighbour as herself - then no one is being harmed. She should be free to live with peace and joy.

Nature did not make plastic surgery, make-up, fake nails, wiggs, or any other unnatural thing people use to make themselves feel more beautiful, so it's best not to be hypocritical and judge.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:43 PM
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What do we do with Bruce? Where did he go?

If he doesn't exist anymore, should they file a death certificate on him and issue some sort of "birth" certificate for Caitlyn. Caitlyn did not win those medals and awards. They are not hers. Maybe she can keep them as momentoes of someone she once had a "close personal relationship" with. Bruce is "dead".

Is Bruce and Caitlyn two personalities of one very sick individual? Or, did Bruce successfully "kill" Bruce and give "birth" to Caitlyn.

Caitlyn/Bruce are not heroes in any since of the word. A hero sacrifices him/herself for others. Doing something for selfish or personal reasons is not being a hero.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 03:53 PM
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1) the medal belongs to Bruce Jenner, not Caitlyn.

2) vanity fair can put whomever they like on their magazine cover. It's their magazine.

3) same answer as 2, except change vanity fair to ESPN

4) everything that family does is completely calculated so yes. It also helps with ratings and money.

5) probably about the same level of impact that white kids had in the 60s when they learned that black people don't inherently carry diseases and white folks can share a water fountain with them

6) what?

7) you don't seriously think you can murder somebody as a man, declare yourself a woman, and get away with it...do you?



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 04:36 PM
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Man this is depressing. And I mean the backward attitudes from people I generally respect on this forum.

1. Caitlyn Jenner, not Bruce.
2. She, not He.
3. No one here has any right to debate how much freedom, respect, or rights another person should have. You do not deserve more freedom than someone else, based purely only your bigotry, ignorance or lack of basic Humanity.
4. This is not your life, get over it, and stop distracting your mind from your own problems by abusing others.
5. Stop being hateful just because it makes you feel superior to someone else.
6. Like it or not, people are interested in this story, so the media are giving those people what they are interested in. Complain all you like, won't change anything.
7. The suicide rate amongst transgender individuals is horrifically high, threads like this with so much childish ignorance do not help.

She is brave to have done what she's done so publicly (the ignorance from so many proves that), and what she's done will no doubt help a hell of a lot of other people too.

Finally, people here are sure showing a hell of a lot of interest in something they're complaining is getting so much interest.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 04:39 PM
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originally posted by: queenofswords
Doing something for selfish or personal reasons is not being a hero.


So you think it's "selfish" to tell the ignorant to f-off and live your life as you want to live it?

Wow.
Just wow.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: Shamrock6
1) the medal belongs to Bruce Jenner, not Caitlyn.

2) vanity fair can put whomever they like on their magazine cover. It's their magazine.

3) same answer as 2, except change vanity fair to ESPN

4) everything that family does is completely calculated so yes. It also helps with ratings and money.

5) probably about the same level of impact that white kids had in the 60s when they learned that black people don't inherently carry diseases and white folks can share a water fountain with them

6) what?

7) you don't seriously think you can murder somebody as a man, declare yourself a woman, and get away with it...do you?


Ugh, I wasn't even going to contribute to this thread but your no 1 is so small thinking I had to say something. First of all, anything someone accomplishes, accumulates, collects, wins, builds or whatever belongs to that person regardless of the gender they are. To suggest his/her medal to be stripped because of a gender change is so beyond critical thinking it's beyond me. What about property? Are you suggesting if John becomes Joan, all of John's possessions should be taken away? Because that's exactly the logic to follow your no 1. opinion. That's why no 7. is correct, because we are who we are and what we do remains with our identity.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 04:53 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

It's not easy for me to digest someone putting this massive amount of thought into another person's life. Is this deserved, is that deserved, what rights does the individual have.... good lord.

May I suggest you turn it off if you can and get on with your own life and leave Caitlyn Jenner's alone?



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 04:54 PM
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Caitlyn absolutely deserves the Olympic medals she won. If you were a teacher when you won an award, would you expect to lose it when you changed careers? I just let Olympic Committee decide, which they already have.

Whether she deserves to be in the magazine is entirely up to Vanity Fair to judge, not us. Same with The Arthur Ashe Committee.



4) Do you think the current campaign in favor of Jenner's right to change of gender in the Media is creating a Smog curtain around the fatal wreck in which he was involved in February of 2015 and being sued since May of 2015? ( There is any difference to be judged as a man or as woman in court ? ).


No.

I'm sure you can deal with a "shocking" story like this if you can deal with some of the horrendous tragedies that are happening in the world today. This is a feel-good story. Not a war or famine, you know?

It's not a mental health issue. No one dies. No one is born again. It's simply as it appears.

People have been transitioning for YEARS. And before medical science was able, transgendered people just dressed and acted like the gender they identify as. Today, they have more options.

I don't see why transitioning has to have any ethical implications.
edit on 6/4/2015 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 04:58 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom

Your position with respect to the topic is pretty interesting, I think it gives a new dimension to the discussion.

At first glance it seems like your proposal is the strategy of the turtle or he snail, that use their shells to protect them when the environment is no longer friendly, but thinking on it from more profound perspective I think it could be a valid way to deal with this for the ones that are shocked with this situation.

I only can applaud your self discipline, may I ask if you are buddhist by the way or what is the Philosophy that inspires your ethical position to this issue?

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 6/4/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Excuse me, but here no body is Judging Cathlyn as a human being, that is something only God has the position to do so.

First all, mine were just questions, and we are in a free country, even a child is in position to ask the same, we can ask what ever we want in America, and I didn't ask for his or her answer in particular.

May I ask when to formulate a simple question became a sin or a crime in this world?


it would be ironic that who is requesting space to take decisions starts to claim that there is no even right to ask about them, is not that a contradiction?

Now, many people earns good salaries, others not so good, some are even not comfortable with their payment and feel they deserve something more, in the same way that many people in life decide to overcome any kind of difficulties to rise themselves to a better situation in life, to get a promotion, to change career, to begin a business why? because they feel they Deserved that.

So to try to find negative connotations In the use of a so simple verb like to deserve sounds to me extremely negative and hypersensitive.


To deserve may have a lot of positive meanings, so your reaction intrigues me a lot. Here I see an attempt to close the discussion with no discussion at all, it looks like a new way to invoke the "right of privacy" as an excuse to create a new era of censorship of the public opinion.

A new question to append to the list inspired in your reply:

13) How a society can be it and not become a Jungle when there are who claim that it is correct to put the rights of the individual over the rights of the group? is not that an extremely egotistic and anarchist perspective?

I can't answer the question for you but there is a very simple principle in rule of Law that says that the rights of an individual end where the rights of other individuals begin.

By the way I am pretty sure the photos of Mr or Mrs Jenner in the Vanity fair magazine were not taken against his or her will, so how is that to ask questions in private for acts that were performed in public?

Don't you think many women in this country can ask why a man is on the cover of one of their most emblematic magazines? how about a girl ? How about the other recipients of the Arthur Ashe prize? or the other men that have been recipient of the Olympic gold medals along history? how about a boy interested in athleticism?

Sorry if you feel offended but the questions on my posts don't cover only my personal interest on it but the one of many more people that is dealing with it as a social phenomenon.


quoted from Napoleon Hill, in his last book Your Right to be Rich,

You want to be rich. You deserve to be rich. Now claim your RIGHT to be rich!


www.youtube.com...


Henry David Thoreau from the Paradox of self sufficiency,
I think that I cannot preserve my health and spirits, unless I spend four hours a day at least—and it is commonly more than that—sauntering through the woods and over the hills and fields, absolutely free from all worldly engagements. You may safely say, A penny for your thoughts, or a thousand pounds. When sometimes I am reminded that the mechanics and shopkeepers stay in their shops not only all the forenoon, but all the afternoon too, sitting with crossed legs, so many of them—as if the legs were made to sit upon, and not to stand or walk upon—I think that they deserve some credit for not having all committed suicide long ago.


blogs.britannica.com...


Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 6/4/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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a reply to: FlySolo

Ugh. Your misinterpretation of my point is so small minded I just had to reply.

Bruce Jenner can do whatever he wants with his medal. The medal was earned. Nothing was done as either Bruce nor Caitlyn to merit stripping the medal away.

I see that my choice of wording was poor.

I do think point number 7, that something done as one gender doesn't disappear because a person switches genders, would've clarified that.

Deductive reasoning and such



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 06:15 PM
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originally posted by: The angel of light
By the way I am pretty sure the photos of Mr or Mrs Jenner in the Vanity fair magazine were not taken against his or her will, so how is that to ask questions in private for acts that were performed in public?


I'll give the benefit of the doubt here, but just so you know, saying "Mr or Mrs Jenner" and "his or her will" (insisting on using the male pronoun) is considered disrespectful by many and makes it pretty obvious how you feel about transgendered people. Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but that's why you come across (to me, at least) as decidedly NOT neutral on the issue.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light


Does Bruce Jenner must retain his Athlete Gold medal of the Montreal 1976 Olympic games, he gained as a man?



Did Catlyn Jenner deserve to be portrayed in the Cover of Vanity fair Magazine



Does Caitlyn Jenner deserve to receive ESPN's Arthur Ashe Courage Award?


Sorry, but this doesn't read as "Did Ms. Jone's apple pie really deserve the blue ribbon? It reads as opening a window to judge Ms. Jenner's life choices, and past history and honestly reads like a rethorical question. Sorry you don't like my response, but it's how it seems to me.


.. to try to find negative connotations In the use of a so simple verb like to deserve sounds to me extremely negative and hypersensitive.


I'm neither negative nor hypersensitive. I saw a negative connotation because there is a negative connotation.


the Transgender experience genuinely part of the Sexual diversity of a free and democratic society or it is perhaps a problem self image and therefore possibly of mental health?


This question has been repeatedly addressed by the psychiatric community. It is indeed a problem with self-image. A person experiences a particular gender on the inside, but it conflicts with the biologically assigned gender.


May I ask when to formulate a simple question became a sin or a crime in this world?


Of course it's not a crime, but it's interesting to note how much you can learn about a person from the questions they ask.


How a society can be it and not become a Jungle when there are who claim that it is correct to put the rights of the individual over the rights of the group? is not that an extremely egotistic and anarchist perspective?


I don't think what Ms. Jenner has done has turned our society into a "jungle". Changing her gender has not violated the rights of any group.


Don't you think many women in this country can ask why a man is on the cover of one of their most emblematic magazines?


There's not a man on the cover.


? how about a boy interested in athleticism?


It won't have any effect on them whatsoever.


) Does Bruce Jenner must retain his Athlete Gold medal of the Montreal 1976 Olympic games, that He gained as a man?

Of course, Those possessions belong to Caitlyn now. It's the same feet that ran the marathon. The same hands that threw the javelin. The same brain that offered all the enormous discipline it took to accomplish those things.

Look, I think you are making far too much of this. There is no big deal about a name change, or a TV show, or about teenagers seeing the cover of Vanity Fair. It's a person who was unhappy for decades, has raised her children, and is now saying "I want to be happy. I want to be free". What could possibly be wrong with that? It's not ours to say.

Change is difficult sometimes. The older folks were flabbergasted when the young men in the 70's grew long hair, as I am that young guys wear their pants around their knees.

But this is a social change and there is no stopping it. Welcome to the new world.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

1) I believe that it does not matter the Bruce Jenner who won the Gold medal no longer identifies with that person. Bruce Jenner won that medal. How can one rewrite/erase history by simply giving it back? Whether s/he gives it back or not would not change the historical fact of Bruce Jenner winning the Gold. It would only be symbolic gesture for selfish gain. It is a psychological marketing move to help establish the Caitlyn brand and gain more acceptance. If ANY Gold medal athlete died -- are the next of kin forced to return the medal because that person no longer exist...?

2) That is not for me to decide. I personally have never read Vanity Fair; therefore, I shall allow the dedicated readers to debate that one...

3) No, s/he does not deserve the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. There are far more suitable candidates in this world who sacrifice their free time and expose themselves to risk helping others in severely stricken parts of the globe. It was not an act of courage by Bruce becoming Caitlin. It was an act of self liberation. It was a self satisfying/gratifying act. It was purely for selfish reasons and not for others. Yes, this act may encourage others but, that is not worthy reason for the award. S/he didn't do it to encourage others. S/he did it strictly for self satisfying reasons.

4) No. I believe s/he should be charged with death by negligence. After all, s/he caused the death of a fellow human being. Unless it was a mechanical failure, then and only then should the case be dismissed. It appears to be careless driving that caused the death according to the information presented. Furthermore, gender should not play a factor in this case. Why should it? However, do the courts recognize Jenner as a woman by law...? If convicted does Jenner go to a women's or men's penitentiary?

5) I don't see how someone else's decisions in life that you never met, including the fact that the person does not know you exist, could have any impact on them in the way you suggest? Only a person who is extremely weak minded could allow Jenner's personal choices affect them.

6) None of my business how others choose to live their lives. MYOB!

7) Mental ping pong. Leave that for the law makers to sort out.



we are just discussing the ethical implications of the change of gender in the modern society


Look my friend, some of us spend time in other parts of the world where we witness children as young as 5 and 6 yrs old laying dead on the street with bullets in them still wearing their school uniforms. When we clean up that mess, then I will contemplate the ethical implications of this issue.

...which is a non-issue, IMO.






edit on 4-6-2015 by Involutionist because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:25 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

I can see how at first glance it would appear "turtle-like" *nods*

I see, hear, and observe my world -- but I choose to allow that which I believe will enhance me into it. In other words, if it doesn't add value or positivity into my life, I don't let it work its way into my reality.

There's an old saying... "Thoughts become things". I've liked this saying because I thought it held quite a bit of value. Everything you see around you that's man-made was once a thought, an idea in someone's mind. So yes, thoughts do become things.

However, where do thoughts come from? They ultimately come from our beliefs. So, it is more true to say beliefs become things.

We create the realities we live in based on the beliefs we hold. If something doesn't concern me, or enable me to achieve more of my potential -- it doesn't get added to my belief system.

You see, our beliefs influence what we think about. What we think about influences how we feel emotionally. What thoughts we have and feelings we feel directly influence the actions we take.

When you allow someone else's beliefs to trump your own, you are giving them permission to shape your reality in their own image. You are giving away your personal power to decide how you get to experience your life and see your reality.

I don't subscribe to any set philosophy or religion. Just like my life, I take bits and pieces I find from everywhere and make my own tapestry. A little Buddhist here, some Native American stuff there...some Greek philosophy...

It's amazing how so many people from around the world and in different times have all tiny shards of truth and knowledge, and if you collect enough of them -- you start to see that many of them fit together in ways you never would have imagined.




posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:30 PM
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All I have to say is...who cares?



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