Tony Blair new role includes making HOLOCAUST denial a criminal offense.

a reply to: stosh64

God also told Bush to go invade Iraq and cause the death of over a million people. I have no respect for the Bush family.

originally posted by: WilhelmTell
I'm not gonna say people weren't put into detainment camps, everyone including we Americans were doing it, but I am convinced alot of things have been kept from the public about what really happened so long ago. one anecdotal example I have was reading about how the "Death Camps" and "six billion" didn't really start apearing until the 60's when Israel was in a tight spot. Haven't looked into it enough though.

Maybe you should "look into" a subject before you form an opinion on it? .

The problem is any historian who wants to work on this will be denied and if he insists he will go to jail. People in France, historians, have been sent to jail because they were discussing the validity of some points of history, they didn't even deny that there has been a genocide, but they were discussing the scale of it and how those people have been killed. This law is very stupid and anyone with a bit of intelligence should refuse it. You cannot deny the intellectual right of historians to work on this specific subject, because for example in France what the law says is that "you cannot emit public doubts over the conclusions of the trial of Nuremberg", and that is most stupid because a trial like that cannot be trusted, because it was 1) only a few years just after the end of the war thus not enough information was gathered at that time and 2) the trial was held by the victors.

originally posted by: Gothmog
Why would anyone want to deny it , it is history. It is against the law in Germany , some states in the US , and a few other countries as well.

well, someone might not be convinced by the evidence, thus leading to the person doubting it all happened in the manner which we're told. a person might even evaluate the evidence and make their own assessment using their own mind...

but yeah, they should lock people up for that stuff.

I'm sorry I don't trust main stream sources on the Holocaust, main stream and "official" narratives can be nit picked and spin doctored into saying anything. Do you want me to tell you about Germans being upset with Jewish Bussiness owners, feeling Cheated by the Slave Treaties from world war one. Are you an Expert? I don't believe it. a very odd culture clash developed between Germans, and Jewish Germans, Familys struggling for 15 or so years until National Socialism generally saved the entire German Nation and people. Germans wanted to be unified and they tried their hardest to make one the most Successful and Advanced nations ever, short lived as it may be. Negative feelings towards the jews had intrenched itself in Europe for centuries, and it eventually became a full on culture war. The Germans didn't want the Jewish relgion in their lands and they did something about it, who are we as Americans to stop them? a Nation built on conquest and Genocide taking up arms against conquest and genocide? laughable. The Brits have their own fair share of atrocites and Conquests from Ireland to India! Empires with Colonial Holdings making themselves look better by demonizing Germany, not any better than demonizing jews in my opinion.

originally posted by: stosh64

originally posted by: Boeing777
a reply to: Blaine91555

The holocaust did happen without a doubt but more people were involved in it than just Hitler. Prescott Bush is just one of many.

How did I know that "blame Bush" would show up in this thread?

Shakes head and exits thread.......

slinks away as uncomfortable truth is revealed.......

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: projectbane
Denying the Holocaust is either a lie people tell due to their own hate, or they have been taught it by people who are not worth the time it takes to acknowledge they exist. Rational people with even basic critical thinking skills would never fall for such a lie in my opinion. They may not deserve jail, but they deserve to be scorned.

Disclosure: I looked into 'holocaust denial' for a period of time when I discovered several academic journal articles addressing inconsistencies in the historical record of World War II. Many of these inconsistencies or outright fallacies were in and around holocaust activities especially. As a rational person I felt I had to at least consider the idea that the events could be not as they appear.

However, after reading these articles in full and engaging in the appropriate research what I realized is that many historians have a fairly clear understanding of the events. Some of these understandings do not follow what I was taught at school and several documentaries I was shown were created by charlatans. I then realized that the holocaust had spawned a minor cottage industry of 'valor theft' style activities. These are people who wanted to turn history into a commodity or theme park ride and sell it back to us.

I guess all I'm saying is that the laws that allowed the hate speech that lead me to consider the holocaust's reality are the same laws that allowed me to read the truth from academics. If we are going to turn questioning history into hate then I imagine the next step is to ban certain religious beliefs and books. We would be becoming the country we hate.

On a side note: I have no issue with ATS not wishing to entertain beliefs about the holocaust being fake. I do have an issue with a government forcing ATS to adopt that stance.

originally posted by: Pinke
On a side note: I have no issue with ATS not wishing to entertain beliefs about the holocaust being fake. I do have an issue with a government forcing ATS to adopt that stance.

a reply to: Blaine91555

What is the link between a jewish kid who gets racist hate and people who deny the genocide ? I don't see it.

originally posted by: WilhelmTell
History repeats itself in such a ironic way that now Jews are persecuting a group in their own homeland just as the once claimed to happen to themselves and relatives. I'm not completly dense on the subject, I just don't hold the Germans at fault for doing something countless other groups, including Americans, Brits, and Jews do themselves.

Oh, please do link me to the source for your stated claim.

First off, if Israel had the same intent as the Germans did during WW2 there would be NO Palestine. How you can compare the two situations requires a significant lapse in cognitive ability.

Please show me ANY evidence that the countries you listed had a plan and implemented that plan to exterminate a whole race of people. Links please.


Making statements does not make them true. Please provide sources to your claim that,

I just don't hold the Germans at fault for doing something countless other groups, including Americans, Brits, and Jews do themselves

For someone who stated,

Haven't looked into it enough though

You do have a lot of unsubstantiated opinions.

And last but not least,

I just don't hold the Germans at fault

WTF do you even say to that statement??? nazi apologetics seems to be more wide spread than even I thought.

There are some good WW2 history books I could recommend that may help your ability to stay factual on this subject.

'I don't really deny that they slaughtered millions of their people, I just don't care whatsoever.'
What a stand up guy

originally posted by: Urantia1111

originally posted by: Gothmog
Why would anyone want to deny it , it is history. It is against the law in Germany , some states in the US , and a few other countries as well.

well, someone might not be convinced by the evidence, thus leading to the person doubting it all happened in the manner which we're told. a person might even evaluate the evidence and make their own assessment using their own mind...

but yeah, they should lock people up for that stuff.

Hmm...not convinced by evidence (your words , not mine) . That may explain a lot in this world.

originally posted by: Boeing777
a reply to: stosh64

God also told Bush to go invade Iraq and cause the death of over a million people. I have no respect for the Bush family.

I am in awe for the fact that this being a holocaust denial thread, you were able to bring up Bush, not once, but twice now. Bravo.

Please forgive me for not following your thinking on this, but what you posted above relates to the OP how exactly?

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: Pinke
On a side note: I have no issue with ATS not wishing to entertain beliefs about the holocaust being fake. I do have an issue with a government forcing ATS to adopt that stance.

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

When I post as a member it is just my opinion. We are members first and have our own opinions on topics.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Sure thing. I wasn't responding to you as your mod status, was just making sure my opinion was clear.

originally posted by: WilhelmTell
I'm sorry I don't trust main stream sources on the Holocaust, main stream and "official" narratives can be nit picked and spin doctored into saying anything. Do you want me to tell you about Germans being upset with Jewish Bussiness owners, feeling Cheated by the Slave Treaties from world war one. Are you an Expert? I don't believe it. a very odd culture clash developed between Germans, and Jewish Germans, Familys struggling for 15 or so years until National Socialism generally saved the entire German Nation and people. Germans wanted to be unified and they tried their hardest to make one the most Successful and Advanced nations ever, short lived as it may be. Negative feelings towards the jews had intrenched itself in Europe for centuries, and it eventually became a full on culture war. The Germans didn't want the Jewish relgion in their lands and they did something about it, who are we as Americans to stop them? a Nation built on conquest and Genocide taking up arms against conquest and genocide? laughable. The Brits have their own fair share of atrocites and Conquests from Ireland to India! Empires with Colonial Holdings making themselves look better by demonizing Germany, not any better than demonizing jews in my opinion.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on ATS.

The repulsive twisting of history to enable empathy for what the Nazis did in WW2 is beyond my ability to comprehend.

My Grandfather, who fought through Europe, and had pictures of the camps, must be writhing in his grave.

a reply to: projectbane

The way you capitalized Jews makes it read like you're some sort of Neo Sympathizer whether or not you realize it.

The HOLOCAUST happened. My grandfathers second wife was there and lost her family because of it. She only made it out because she was Blonde/Blue and young enough to be re-educated. She's German born from a Jewish family. She's also passed from this world, recently may God rest her soul. One of the sweetest, kindest and most silent women you could ever hope to meet.

Just sayin'....because blind raggard hate starts with little things....LIKE WORDS.

If you're so THREATENED by the protections given to others while you sit back and quiver in your chair spouting all manner of callous accusations, why don't you do us all a favor, grow a freakin' spine and attach it to a freakin' BRAIN.

Jerk.

A couple things. First, it should be recognized that there is a clear difference between A) evaluating evidence/asking questions/engaging in scholarly debate about the Holocaust and B) Outright denying the Holocaust. It is perfectly fine to take part in those listed under category A, however I believe it to be absolutely horrific to take part in category B. Denying the Holocaust is a farce and I personally consider it to be hate-speech to the highest degree. As far as I'm concerned, it would be akin to running around advocating for the re-establishment of slavery for African Americans. If somebody takes it upon themselves to deny the Holocaust in a public format, I am not opposed at all to that person being charged criminally.

Second, to the OP. You certainly have the right to speak your mind, but you come off as a bit ignorant and under-educated when you say "I have NO sympathy towards any jewish person who talks to me about it and I just do not care one bit. When we have starving children and rampant crime and our liberties are being dissolved by the day - i just do not care about Jewish plight at all. " I would highly recommend you watch the movie Schindler's List. It may just change your perspective a bit.

Third, @WilhelmTell...you said "one anecdotal example I have was reading about how the "Death Camps" and "six billion" didn't really start apearing until the 60's when Israel was in a tight spot. Haven't looked into it enough though" Now, first of all, it's quite alarming that you are under the impression that "6 billion" Jews were killed in the Holocaust. At the time of WWII, the world population was 2.5 billion. The number you were looking for was 6 million. Lastly, I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating by placing the words "Death Camps" in quotations. These death camps were documented to have existed, and represented one of the more gruesome methods of mass genocide our world has ever seen.

Here are some sources on British genocide:
ramanan50.wordpress.com...
newbritishempire.site11.com...
www.irishhistorylinks.net...
en.wikipedia.org...
allafrica.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
and Here is some information on American Genocide:
www.iearn.org...
www.hawaii.edu...
espressostalinist.com...
and Israel:
electronicintifada.net...
guardianlv.com...
en.wikipedia.org...:Massacres_committed_by_Israel
www.nytimes.com...
www.opednews.com...
www.theguardian.com...
With that being put out there, why don't you take it upon yourself to look in to the various attacks, wars, and atrocities that these and numerous other nations have commited. I'm not trying to bully jews or others by saying the Germans weren't the first, last, or worst, to do dark things to other people. en.wikipedia.org...
If this isn't good enough, and if you simply won't research yourself, then either you are dense or perhaps one of those paid shills I keep hearing about.

If you visit the Holocaust Museum in DC, there are volunteer survivors there that will talk to you. They are aging and the museum is vocal about this first hand account discussion time can't continue forever.

There were more than those of the Jewish origin that were caught up in the Holocaust, btw. The museum was really difficult for me, I was in tears the entire time and I don't feel my kids should go. If you're interested in going I would suggest you prepare yourself before hand. Something that's legal in DC but not t&c friendly may have helped me not be a crying mess in that museum.

a reply to: kayej1188

Some believe that those camps were not death camps but forced labor camps and the people who died there died mainly because of malnutrition and illnesses. So you see, there were camps but historians are denied the right to look into it.

And just to be clear, my grand father also fought WW2 under french flag(he was algerian, he has been made prisoner in germany). If you have seen the movie Days of glory, that's the story of my grand father right there.