Enacting a basic income for all Americans

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: beezzer

You don't understand the inevitability of what were saying and not only is it inevitable it's already here.

So personal responsibility is dead?

Is that what you're admitting?

a reply to: onequestion

I guess I am too, since half of everything I earn is taken from me at gunpoint to support a government and population that I don't want supported.

So much greed, right here. Captain greedypants, busting ass to scrape by.

Maybe if I had that other 50%, I'd donate it to things I cared about- like educating the next round of humans before they get completely screwed by this awful system we've created.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: beezzer

You don't understand the inevitability of what were saying and not only is it inevitable it's already here.

So personal responsibility is dead?

Is that what you're admitting?

A basic income doesn't mean the death of personal responsibility. If I had a basic income, I'd STILL pursue a job and try to work. You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

That's one of the most thought provoking comments I've seen in quite a while, and no, I don't think you're full o'crap. I've been pondering on this problem for months and you're quite correct in thinking the problem is going to develop very rapidly over the course of the next 30 years. I'd seen, for example, that whereas in the 1950's an automobile assembly line had 200 people on it. Today, Tesla runs an automobile assembly line with about 6 people and 20 robots turning out a new car every 30 minutes. My guess is that within 10 years that same assembly line will be run by one, incredibly bored individual whose job it will be to turn on the computer in the morning and place an order for X number of cars and then sit and look out the window as the fully automated line of robots churns out the cars per the order input in the morning.

But that begs the question...who's going to be able to afford to buy a Tesla car when no one has a job? The 1%? How many new cars are they going to buy each year?

So, yea...at least for some transition period, a mandated minimum income might be necessary.

a reply to: beezzer

You guys are missing the point entirely reread the post and understand the issue.

The issue is that the rest of the world is catching up technologically and educationally adding a larger pool of workers to an already dwindling pool of jobs needed to accomplish the goal of supplying the worlds goods with fewer and fewer people due to technology aka automation.

Carpentry work that used to need 10 carpenters cn now be done by one in a factory that produces 100 times more of the same quality craftsmanship.

That eliminates the need for small business carpenters while decreasing cost.

It takes money out of the local..

Wasting my times.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes.

a reply to: TonyS

Wonderful ability to see past the social implications of what were talking about with a 1950's thought paradigm perspective and understand what's happening.

a reply to: beezzer

Well let's just stop all innovation and go back to building everything by hand.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes.

When I lived in the US, I was on unemployment for 3 months. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. On top of the crushing boredom, I couldn't afford to go DO anything. I spent my time applying for jobs, travelling to interviews, and spent the evenings applying for jobs online. When I wasn't job hunting, I was basically staring at the TV waiting for death. I was completely miserable. Even if I had guaranteed basic income, I'd try to do SOMETHING to earn me extra money for playtime, and not just sit around collecting dust like an antique vase.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: beezzer

Well let's just stop all innovation and go back to building everything by hand.

Do what you want.

But when you're encouraging those of us who work to pay for those who don't, then I'm going to have an issue.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes.

When I lived in the US, I was on unemployment for 3 months. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. On top of the crushing boredom, I couldn't afford to go DO anything. I spent my time applying for jobs, travelling to interviews, and spent the evenings applying for jobs online. When I wasn't job hunting, I was basically staring at the TV waiting for death. I was completely miserable. Even if I had guaranteed basic income, I'd try to do SOMETHING to earn me extra money for playtime, and not just sit around collecting dust like an antique vase.

Good for you.

Do you speak for every person who is/was/will be unemployed?

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

It's an invalid and unproven argument.

They are grasping at straws.

a reply to: onequestion

Is personal responsibility dead?

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes.

When I lived in the US, I was on unemployment for 3 months. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. On top of the crushing boredom, I couldn't afford to go DO anything. I spent my time applying for jobs, travelling to interviews, and spent the evenings applying for jobs online. When I wasn't job hunting, I was basically staring at the TV waiting for death. I was completely miserable. Even if I had guaranteed basic income, I'd try to do SOMETHING to earn me extra money for playtime, and not just sit around collecting dust like an antique vase.

Good for you.

Do you speak for every person who is/was/will be unemployed?

No. I don't.

Would you stop working if you had Basic Income? Let's start a poll.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes.

When I lived in the US, I was on unemployment for 3 months. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. On top of the crushing boredom, I couldn't afford to go DO anything. I spent my time applying for jobs, travelling to interviews, and spent the evenings applying for jobs online. When I wasn't job hunting, I was basically staring at the TV waiting for death. I was completely miserable. Even if I had guaranteed basic income, I'd try to do SOMETHING to earn me extra money for playtime, and not just sit around collecting dust like an antique vase.

Good for you.

Do you speak for every person who is/was/will be unemployed?

No. I don't.

Would you stop working if you had Basic Income? Let's start a poll.

Wrong.

First ask a poll if you would TAKE a basic income.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: beezzer

You don't understand the inevitability of what were saying and not only is it inevitable it's already here.

So personal responsibility is dead?

Is that what you're admitting?

A basic income doesn't mean the death of personal responsibility. If I had a basic income, I'd STILL pursue a job and try to work. You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes, because it's amazing what people will NOT do when they have no NEED to do it. How many times and how many people have said "eh, screw it, it's Saturday and I'm not going anywhere, I'm not taking a shower because nobody will see me anyway." That's basic hygiene.

Would everybody jump on the welfare queen welcome wagon? No probably not. But many would. A great many would I think.

As for all this unemployment versus jobs: people are quitting jobs at a higher rate than they're being terminated from jobs. People are being hired at a higher percentage than there are jobs that remain open. If there was this massive shift going on we would be seeing layoffs and discharges at a higher rate than there are voluntary quits. Hiring would be flatlined instead of fluctuating up and down with the economy.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
I personally believe Basic Income is an eventuality that will come to pass within the next 20 years. Moore's law continues to bring exponential innovation unchecked, and as technology improves, more work will be done via automation or AI.

I also believe it will be a point of major contention in the history of the nations as they move toward it.

The problem with that is then you have a large pool of people who are living for nothing, doing nothing. They proceed to have children who also grow up expecting to live for nothing, doing nothing.

It goes in ever expanding circles, and at some point becomes unsupportable.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: SpaDe_
What happens when the people who work to support the people who do not decide to stop supporting them or join them? How can you get something from nothing? This doesn't end in a utopian future for all, it will most likely end in dystopian future based on the way things are going.

In the future, when nearly everything is run and produced via automation and AI, only high skilled people with a drive to succeed will want, and fill jobs. You act as if once humans don't HAVE to work, humanity will degenerate into some dystopian hell hole with no hope of escape. There's a reason why people, after retirement, don't just melt into their couch and become one with the living room. They get bored, they want to create, or play. It's natural human tendency to want to stay busy, work, and play. Just because the NEED for work goes away, doesn't mean people won't still innovate, create, learn, and be HUMAN.

If the only reason I am working is to feed a bunch of people who aren't, and I have precious little left over to enjoy all the hard work myself ... why bother?

I can get more enjoyment out of life by not working at all.

Maybe you underestimate the amount of hours someone puts in to really succeed these days.

a reply to: beezzer

So your saying you wouldn't take the income you would rather work, but your premise is that everyone else would and do nothing?

Interesting logic.

I'm a boxing coach, Id probably still trade my services for things I love boxing.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
You assume if everyone had basic necessities that all desire to work would suddenly evaporate and we'd all be welfare queens.

Yes.

When I lived in the US, I was on unemployment for 3 months. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. On top of the crushing boredom, I couldn't afford to go DO anything. I spent my time applying for jobs, travelling to interviews, and spent the evenings applying for jobs online. When I wasn't job hunting, I was basically staring at the TV waiting for death. I was completely miserable. Even if I had guaranteed basic income, I'd try to do SOMETHING to earn me extra money for playtime, and not just sit around collecting dust like an antique vase.

Good for you.

Do you speak for every person who is/was/will be unemployed?

No. I don't.

Would you stop working if you had Basic Income? Let's start a poll.

Wrong.

First ask a poll if you would TAKE a basic income.

Usagi is grumpy today.

Okay, would you take a basic income? It's pretty safe to assume you would not.

Part two, if basic income was guaranteed to all citizens, with no caveats, and it was automatically deposited into a bank account or mailed to you weekly, would you work?