It amazes me when I read about US healthcare.A question for you USAers.

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: grainofsand
Lol.
So being forced to pay makes you a better person?

I am willing to pay more if it is dedicated to healthcare.
This is not a pissing match about who is a better person or not though.
Some issues are pretty obvious, and I am happy for my taxes to pay for poor people to get fixed.

a reply to: grainofsand

Perhaps you care little about fellow man. I don't, I care lots.

This is a horrible statist argument to guilt-trip people into being slaves.

From the left: if you don't use government to rob your neighbors, you hate your neighbors

From the right: If you don't use government to murder your neighbors, you hate your neighbors.

Let me correct you: I love human beings, and I want human beings to be 100% free, because there is absolutely zero reason for them not to be.

If you use government to rob and kill, it is you that hates his fellow man.

Honestly, all economic strife in the US can be traced back to government.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

So, how would you fund healthcare for people who are poor then?
I like general taxation even though I have paid tens of thousands more than I've got back over the years.
I have issues with some other welfare services but medical health? Nope, that is paramount. You can't force a lazy bastard to work if they are suffering an ailment.

*Edit*
Fix the ailment, then force them to work, pretty simple as I see it.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: SlapMonkey

It'll cost you in state taxes but easily do-able.
I am happy for some (British citizen) bum who has paid nothing into the UK to get healthcare when they need it, even though my taxes pay for it.
I have issues with paying them benefits to sit on their arse but if they need to be fixed medically then I am happy for my taxes to fund it.
They have no excuse to be unavailable for work when we have a healthcare system that fixes the lazy bastards as well.

I'm not advocating for a state-run system, I just said at least it'd be better than a federally run system.

Homeless people always had access to healthcare here, like I said, at no cost to them. We still paid for it, just in the form of fifty dollars for a bottle of Aspirin.

I think you overestimate the apathetic humans in this world--if they don't want to work, there will always be an excuse, regardless if your taxes supplied them with a tetanus shot, or an I.V. for dehydration.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

So, how would you fund healthcare for people who are poor then?

Let me try an answer, here: How about a mix of private donations and, if necessary, local taxation. And I'm talking about at the municipal/county level, not state, because the farther you remove the source from the need, the less appropriate the funding will be and the less efficient the administration will be.

We could easily--EASILY--raise enough funds to be able to give minimal preventative care to those in need just by private donations alone, I would argue. But, with our governmental bureaucracies (I hate trying to spell that word) in the mix, it doesn't give us a chance to give that a try. Add in local tax dollars, and a system like that would be set.

And that doesn't even include giving up Medicaid, which already existed prior to Obamacare, but it is administered so recklessly that more money is wasted than used for the proper purpose, imo.

I like general taxation even though I have paid tens of thousands more than I've got back over the years.
I have issues with some other welfare services but medical health? Nope, that is paramount. You can't force a lazy bastard to work if they are suffering an ailment.

*Edit*
Fix the ailment, then force them to work, pretty simple as I see it.

Sorry, I can't get behind your apparent philosophy of 'fix 'em for free so we can have forced labor.' That sounds like you're a charitable organization that fixes broken tractors so you can use them on a farm...pretty reprehensible viewpoint, honestly.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I think you overestimate the apathetic humans in this world

Nope, I have deep experience, professionally and socially.
Take away their excuses and then the sanctions that can be applied are much more defensible.
It ain't rocket science.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Sorry, I can't get behind your apparent philosophy of 'fix 'em for free so we can have forced labor.' That sounds like you're a charitable organization that fixes broken tractors so you can use them on a farm...pretty reprehensible viewpoint, honestly.

Classic ATS silliness bleating that I've said something so terrible.
Stop with the drama queen stuff, it is easier to help someone and help them to become a productive part of society if they have no medical ailments.
I support my taxes funding the treatment of their ailments.
All the rest of it is your invention alone, but I will say that lazy bastards have nothing to whine about if their physical ailments are fixed by the taxpayer.

So, come on US based ATS members, what exactly is so bad about citizens being happy to pay more taxes so other fellow citizens get free healthcare?
Would you prefer them to starve in the gutter and bleed out due to their ailment?
Are their lives worth less because they were born in #hole housing estates?

I am happy to fund the poor in the UK when it comes to medical care.
Medical care assists in providing the workforce.
Is that not obvious?

a reply to: grainofsand

So, how would you fund healthcare for people who are poor then?

The same way I would fix the US economy.

Abolish all government taxation against both the individual and business, abolish all government regulations and subsidies, abolish all government services in favor of privatization in the market, especially the federal Reserve--and return our currency back to gold and silver.

1. Inflation would end.
2. The end of taxation would relieve burdens off of all economic classes.
3. The prices of goods and services would plummet, and they would remain stable with no dramatic fluctuations outside of specific causes that are easy to pinpoint (natural disasters and such).
4. Poverty would plummet to all time lows.
5. There would be no "boom/bust" cycle, the economy would be stable.
6. People would have better options in the market for previous government monopolies related to schooling, mail, security, and welfare.

Private institutions can handle charity better than government. Google the Mormon communities' private charity.

I like general taxation even though I have paid tens of thousands more than I've got back over the years.
I have issues with some other welfare services but medical health? Nope, that is paramount. You can't force a lazy bastard to work if they are suffering an ailment.

*Edit*
Fix the ailment, then force them to work, pretty simple as I see it.

People shouldn't be forced to work, though. There should be great incentives to work (which there are, but welfare desentivizes working for oneself), but if a man cannot control his right to choose to expend his labor or not, then he is a slave.

originally posted by: grainofsand
So, come on US based ATS members, what exactly is so bad about citizens being happy to pay more taxes so other fellow citizens get free healthcare?
Would you prefer them to starve in the gutter and bleed out due to their ailment?
Are their lives worth less because they were born in #hole housing estates?

I am happy to fund the poor in the UK when it comes to medical care.
Medical care assists in providing the workforce.
Is that not obvious?

You want to know what is so bad?

We live almost paycheck to paycheck now, and we are getting taxed over 40% between state/federal/local just on income. And we are in no way rich. We do not make six figures, and you are telling us that we are not generous enough because we don't want to be taxed even more.

When you pin people down and ask them what a person's fair share in tax liability is, they will usually tell you that a person ought to not be asked for more than a 1/3 of their income total, but we're well past that mark. And it's never enough. They always want more.

It really sucks to realize that when you go to work, none of the work you are doing is actually going to support your family until sometime on Wednesday.

a reply to: ketsuko

An because we live paycheck to paycheck, one medical emergency would ruin us. Whereas universal healthcare would insure that wouldn't happen. So yes, it would take a slight bump in taxes, and major overhaul to the healthcare industry in America.

As an American, I will say, without even the slightest hesitation, that our healthcare system is a disaster. Any healthcare system that is for-profit and stands to make more money from the sick as opposed to the cured is just going to be terrible for the people in the end (well, not the rich of course).

True, Obamacare was a sad bargain with the current insurance providers. But I will say this, it allowed me to get health insurance whereas I was denied it prior. So the so-called "myth" that people were happy with it before, and that everyone could get treatment isn't really so true.

Prior to Obamacare I had to have thyroid surgery. I had really good insurance (as far as insurance companies go in this country) and still had to pay 10k our of pocket. Luckily I had a high paying job at the time and could handle that. But most people could not, and you all know it. Then I lost that job. I could only afford COBRA for a short while. But I have no thyroid at all now, and need to take medication every day to provide thyroid hormone. In order to be proscribed that medication I have to get routine bloodwork and be monitored by a doctor. To the insurance companies this meant I had a pre-existing condition and got denied when I tried to start a new life as a freelance worker and buy my own insurance.

At least Obamacare came along and the slimy insurance companies had to take me (as much as I wanted nothing to do with them). But without them, the cost of treatment and medication was far too high. And without my medication, it's a slow road to death (i.e. I would have no metabolism). But to them, it's a pre-existing condition.

Our healthcare system sucks. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is no incentive to find a cure for anything. When profit drives the system, there is only a drive to create temporary remedies, and to keep the drugs/checkups/money flowing. And yes, it's because of the deeply engrained corporate power that runs the system, and yes, it's because Americans just don't care enough about other people… even in their own country. 2 part problem.

a reply to: okrian

So what? You take all the money and any emergency ruins you. Who cares if the health care doesn't ruin you. Any other emergency will also.

I would rather be able to keep some back and have the ability to save than have the government drain me dry. They aren't going to save me from every emergency out there.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Until they've have free healthcare, they just don't get it... They are told to be fearful of the scary "socialists" like the gays and the reds under the beds and everything else they throw at them to make them scared and lose focus instead of looking at insane expenditure on defense etc and not road works, public works and education....anyway I digress.
To me as a person who is dual citizen, I find the healthcare system worse in the US than I got in the Indian subcontinent or Asia.
The insurance payment system isn't my main concern (as bad as affordability is) its the actual system. My first trip to the clinic for tonsillitis, I had a nurse practitioner google my existing medication. right there in front of me. Trying to get a MD to take you in is like trying to catch a ghost on film..
Practices are businesses where a GP puts their name on a door, and employ a bunch of Nurse practitioners to see you, prescribe you medication and then the MD with their name on the door reviews your file end of day.

I went from having a GP visit me in hospital in Australia when she heard I was unwell a few years back. To the most bizarre system I think they could have invented.

Simple. Get tax % break back if you get private healthcare so you aren't on the system, If you are using free healthcare you pay a 1-2% increase in tax.

And don't start me on the litigation society this place..... Health care and lawyers go hand in hand. It is bizarre. I feel sorry for this country as they bleat and complain about anything to do with health but truly are ignorant on how wonderful NHS and Medicare systems are in the rest of the developed world.

a reply to: ketsuko
Well, I think that's the point of what is being discussed here. Specifically healthcare. Point being that in a country with universal healthcare, you wouldn't get ruined by an emergency.

And in the case of the poor folk in this country, a minor health problem wouldn't escalate into a major one and then put them in a position where they are unable to work/survive. Meanwhile we've got an entire group of people doing the bidding of the insurance companies and blaming the sick and the poor. Good job.

And it's not even relegated to large health issues and emergencies... that skin condition that was easily cleared up through insurance/medication a poor person could never get. It's not an emergency. And those sores that would be easily cleared away with access to medication… well, there goes that job interview. So they can't get hired. Are they to blame? For being born at the financial level and situation they were in? And don't give me some dreamy bootstraps nonsense. This is reality.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

If taxation were voluntary it wouldn't be an issue, especially if it is as great as you claim.

It's the whole 'using violence to forcibly take from your neighbor' that many Americans find repugnant.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

It exists already in other countries.
Its not taking extra. ITS GIVING A REBATE.
?"using violence against your neighbour???" Are you talking to someone else...That isn't my conversation I'm not sure what your on about.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

We had a friend who moved to Canada for the "free" health care.

He doesn't complain about it. True. He just complains about how expensive everything else is relative to what he was paying for it in the US.

That would be his "free" health care kicking in.

a reply to: ketsuko

Nice little Vignette . Convenient too.

Yes Ill pay an extra 25 cents for a coffee, rather than dish out half a million for hospitaluzation.

a reply to: boymonkey74

the past several months a regular medication I take...i've only been getting half of what the doctors writes the prescription for. Non-narcotic, not abusable in any sort of way. I couldn't figure out why, and have been working to try to figure it out. Interspersed with this was plenty of goof ups on the part of the pharmacy I use (a business associate owns it, so I try to give him business in return).

So today I went to see the doctor, and told him I wanted him to write out a script on his pad instead of calling it in. I took a photo of it before dropping it off, and when I went to pick it up, sure enough it was half of what he had ordered. So i asked why. "Sir, your insurance will only pay for "X" amount, and the doctor is ordering "2X" amount".

"But can't I pay for it out of pocket?"

Blank stare in return.

"So you mean you guys have been making the decision for me, instead of talking to me about it?"

Blank stare in return.

"Two months ago when we had this big, huge argument...why didn't you just let me pay out of pocket instead of arguing with me?"

Folks, that is what passes for "healthcare" in the US. My insurance will only pay for half of what my doctor believes I need, and my pharmacy makes the decision that I can't/won't afford to fill the gap on my own out of pocket.

While I can't blame ACA for everything, I can say that before the new "Obamacare Compliant" plans were forced on employers in the marketplace, this had never happened. 10 years ago this insurance plan was a "Cadillac Plan". Now we pay twice as much for half the coverage. Literally.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

It's not a health care system, its a corporate industry here trading in medical issues. hence the problems.

Before I got my Insurance here I paid next to Nix for medication. I was quite surprised, The same medication sky rocketed when listed I had insurance.