Charter Schools vs Public Schools

a reply to: FyreByrd


Couldn't disagree more . Bet you my kid gets a full ride into a better college ... 200 fair? Message me

a reply to: calstorm

Thank you for the insider information.

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Legman
Your kid will be a dip# or all pro based only on your parenting. Spend all the money you want to try to modify this basic fact.

No - education and schooling are very important even for the very best parents. A child needs to learn to work with others, how to lead, many things that cannot be learned in the home. I'm not talking about sports, or music even, I'm talking about the subtle daily interactions that make life good and productive. You can't learn that in the closed system of a family no matter how large because of conditioning. It's important to interact with teachers and students from a variety of backgrounds in order to learn the needed skills to function successfully in the 'REAL WORLD". It is the major drawback of home-schooling - too narrow of exposure to ideas and people.

It's the trend to narrow a childs exposure to certain "Right Ideas, conclusions and people" and it is hurting our ability to co-exist peaceablity and productively.

Parents and family are important but a well-rounded education creates exceptional human beings.

And I just lost pretty much all respect for you, thanks for insinuating my kids are bumbling idiot shut-ins as home-schoolers. Their skills in leadership, problem-solving, and interaction with other kids & adults is just as good as the skills of any brick & mortar school kids. Which is better than we can say for some adults who speak out their backside without any clear knowledge about home-schoolers in the first place

Please reread my post. I implied so such thing. Apparently I touched a nerve and for that I'm sorry.

What I actually said, so that you don't imply I was attacking YOU, was that lack of breath of information, ideas, methods, people, are a major problem with homeschooling. I did not say YOUR homeschooling or parenting or anything of the like.

Critical thinking, creativity requires exposure to all domains of knowledge, all methods of viewing and analysing that knowleged, and the FREEDOM to make up ones own mind.

Education is not about a ideaology either political or religious or nationalistic or the like. As people often point out the modern mass education system was first used as more of an training program (reading writing arithematic) that was needed by worker in the early industrial era.

The public education system that the USA was at one time famous for was based more on the Classical Greek concept of the Trivium and Quadrivum - the so-called Liberal Arts education.

The liberal arts education is the basis of the core curriculum required of every undergraduate student. The classical liberal arts education was (and is) meant to create a well-rounded educated person and to LIBERATE their mind from preconceived notions, prejudices, and the undue influence of others. The word LIBERATE comes from the Latin LIBER, a free person, one who is not a slave (Quadrivium 1).
The liberal arts, originally, were seven in number. Based on the ideas of Plato, Socrates, and Pythagoras, they were broken down as follows (Quadrivium 1):

THE TRIVIUM:

Grammar (learning information)
Logic (critical thinking; evaluating information)
Rhetoric (communicating your ideas, conclusions)
The trivium constitutes basic learning skills and/or the basic skills needed to produce a research paper.

THE QUADRIVIUM:

Arithmetic
Geometry
Music
Astronomy

www.criticalthink.info...$trivium/advresearch.htm


And the intent - which I would hope would be the educational intent of all parents for their children of such an education is to create self-motivated critical thinkers and actors. Or what the framing fathers of the USA would have called 'Free Thinkers' able to think outside the bounds of religious, social, political conditioning.

From Albert Einstein:

"To me the worst thing seems to be a school principally to work with methods of fear, force and artificial authority. Such treatment destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity and the self-confidence of pupils and produces a subservient subject."

Famous quotes on education: methods of fear Einstein

And two quotes from Rudolf Steiner:

“Receive the children in reverence, educate them in love, and send them forth in freedom.”

education quotes about reverence, love and freedom Steiner

“Our highest endeavor must be to develop free human beings who are able of themselves to impart purpose and direction to their lives. The need for imagination, a sense of truth, and a feeling of responsibility — these three forces are the very nerve of education.”

inspiring quotes on conscious parenting and developing free men Steiner

One from long time ago:

'The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.' Plutarch

All found, with a tinest bit of research, at: artof4elements.com...

I've seen homeschooling turn out delightful young people - but very few parents, on their own, can provide exposure to all the content and domains of knowledge nor teach the more important skills of productive interpersonal communication.

Whatever works for your family is fine. The Charter schools and our teachers wife so pointed out are largely in business to make profit.

The issues are immense and extremely important if we are to survive as the only advantage we have is our creative thinking capacity.

I am truly sorry you felt attacked, it was never my intent. The issue is not you - it's the pro and cons of charter schools and there are good ones - but they are hard to find.

Some topical reading:

An interesting article at Alternet that we should think about when placing our children into schooling:

America’s Competition Fetish Produces Human Sheep
Teaching competition from kindergarten up makes us stupid and uninventive.

Which can be found here:

www.alternet.org...tish-produces-human-sheep

Any of the works of J. Chilton Pierce. "The Magical Child" made me so depressed about our modern 'education' system I started looking at alternatives, and luckily found one. As an aside I got to meet him at my daughters school when she was a high school senior, it was one of the thrills of my life. A wonderful but fairly dense work, his newer works are more accessable.

Rudolf Steiner's "Recovery of Man in Childhood" and other child development and education lecutures by him. A very difficult read but worth the learning curve.

There is no, and never will be, one good answer for how to education a child. But shutting children off from 'human knowlege' is not going to help and 'for-profit' 'run as a business' schools impart nothing useful to our children because the most important attribute for a teacher (or a parent for that matter) is how we model a love of learning and a curious and seeking mind.

a reply to: interupt42

seems like education is done in reverse in the US, In Australia, up until the last 20 years anyway, were public schools, or charter as you call them.

No, most the school system and the health care system has been privitised and we are still paying more tax. We are getting less and less benefits from our own taxes these days. ........ well that's not really true cos the money is used by the govt to pay back the banks which it borrows from cos the banks have got an unofficial 'money creation power' .... well actually its our signature that brings the money into existence but the back takes it and 'lends' it back to us. ......... so if the banks can do create money out of thin air why cant govts themselves not do it.

a reply to: interupt42

My children are in a Waldorf charter school and I can't say enough good things about the education they're receiving. Public neighborhood schools are horrible places, IMO. Anyplace where seniority means more than results and indoctrination takes precedent over actual education is entirely worthless.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Thanks for the response.

I have a couple of questions
1. Doesn't charter school still have to adhere to the same standards as public schools?

2. How can you compare Charter school results versus Public school results?

3. Do Charter schools and public school take the same exams?

4. Does charter school use the same books as public schools?

5. My understanding is that charter schools get gov't funding per student , but less than traditional public schools would get (like 40% if I remember). In addition, charter schools have to turn a profit. Is that typically true?

6. Do charter schools have to adhere to the common core and other public school policy and take the same tests like FCAT?

7. What is the charter school business model, How do they make money and is the business model in sync to giving the best education or are there conflicts between profit and education?


Thanks again

a reply to: Azureblue

Not to derail the thread but I agree. Privatisation of gov't entities is typically not in the best interest of the taxpayers ,but rather the private corporate contract holders.

That is another concern for me.

Public school are ranked now 28th in the world and they get more money than charter schools. However, unlike public schools charter schools appear to also have to make money and are likely profit driven.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: interupt42

My children are in a Waldorf charter school and I can't say enough good things about the education they're receiving. Public neighborhood schools are horrible places, IMO. Anyplace where seniority means more than results and indoctrination takes precedent over actual education is entirely worthless.

My daughter spent 14 years in a private Waldorf school. Her graduating class was composed of the most intelligent, helpful and self-possessed young people I've ever met. In fact, when she was in the lower grades and we had to write that big check each month, I'd talk to the High Schoolers and I wanted what I saw in them for her. Though naturally biased, she has turned out to be a fine young women.

There are many Waldorf Charters popping up in many quarters of the US as the cost of Tradition Waldorf education is prohibitive for most people (in other countries Waldorf and other alternative schools are subsidized by government). The community is hard pressed to turn out enough AWSNA qualified teachers for all the openings. The public charter Waldorf schools tend to pay more then the private ones but do have to make concessions because of state funding. I know several families that have gone to charter schools and are delighted with the facilities, staff and community.

However, the vast majority of Charter schools are not truly independent schools but rather 'franchisees' of for profit educational organizations with the single goal of profit.

a reply to: interupt42

Charter schools, in the USA, are public schools.

They are self-managing rather then district-managed as so, in theory, can be more responsive to the community and financially leaner - both points are arguable.

Well here in Calfornia, wait maybe just Los Angeles, 'test' results for all public schools are posted so that you can look up the testing scores of an individual school. This, of course, assumes that standardized tests are an accurate measure of how well the students are memorizing the 'required' content.

I don't know about books, the Waldorf Charters don't use textbooks (the students make their own) and the state doesn't require that any specific text be used. I imagine that in other states - it could very well be different.

Personally, I think the 'Charter' movement has be hijacked by for profit interest. They paid staff less, with less benefits so their staff is not the best, they skimp on supplies and whatever else they can. The overriding principle is proft - not education.

There are exceptions and with work and good fortune, they can be found.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Personally, I think the 'Charter' movement has be hijacked by for profit interest. They paid staff less, with less benefits so their staff is not the best, they skimp on supplies and whatever else they can. The overriding principle is proft - not education.

Thats my concern. I don't see how this could not happen on a profit driven business model unless they get compensated by the success of the students which would be hard to standardise.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Yes, and this is why so many homeschoolers and private schools are going back to the Classical model of education. In fact, the school we chose uses it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: FyreByrd

Yes, and this is why so many homeschoolers and private schools are going back to the Classical model of education. In fact, the school we chose uses it.

So charter schools don't have to implement common core?

originally posted by: interupt42

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: FyreByrd

Yes, and this is why so many homeschoolers and private schools are going back to the Classical model of education. In fact, the school we chose uses it.

So charter schools don't have to implement common core?

I believe they will have to show how their cirriculum will meet those 'standards' but I think all schools have to show how there program meets the existing 'race to the top' standards. I'm not an expert on standards testing and such as I find them irrelevant to sound education.

originally posted by: Legman
a reply to: FyreByrd


Couldn't disagree more . Bet you my kid gets a full ride into a better college ... 200 fair? Message me

LOL - I bet your definition is different as to what consistutes a 'better' college.

My daughter was accepted to every school she applied to (ten), declined them all and went to work. She may attend university in the future, but outside the US. She likes to quote Frank Zappa (If you want to get laid, go to college; if you want an education, go to a library) whenever people say she is making a mistake. She makes more money then any of her college graduate friends (except for one), enjoys her life and work and doesn't see the need to conform to YOUR (or my) standards.

I don't know how helpful this information is but my girlfriend has been working in the corporate office of a charter school for the last 3 years. I know very little about the actual curriculum or teaching method of the particular charter, but I do know they are all about common core.

The things I CAN tell you is that the owners of this particular branch have nearly 100 schools nation wide and treat their staff like #. Teachers are paid based off their students results and they aren't part of a union. I heard of a principal today makes $66K a year, not sure where that lands amongst public schools.

This company recently had a professional development seminar for all the administration, a 7 day seminar for principals and AP's to get ready for the oncoming year. It cost the company $300,000....$12K of that spent on a glorified field day....that money comes out of the schools, out of people's pay. You'll have the owner crying over real silver serving platters VS fake ones when they're cutting salaries and expenses.

They just took away over time from my girlfriend. At the beginning of the year, they gave her the option, "Get salaried or get overtime.", she went with overtime....then before this huge event, they tell her she won't be eligible for overtime, she'll have to take days off work to make up the time. She now has 9 days off work because of the amount of time she put in during that seminar.

I'm very good friends with several of the curriculum specialist who work there and these people do care about what they do. Obviously this is just one particular charter school system, so they all shouldn't be compared to it, but it definitely seems that the owners are far more interested in turning a profit and making a big name for themselves. Their logical thinking and care for their employees leaves much to be desired and that extends a long way.

a reply to: Drucifer

Sounds like the charter school chain my husband no longer works for. The director crying over a silver platter versus a fake one, makes me highly suspicious.