How can any American be a proud, patriotic citizen?

Just to clarify, I'm not saying America is the worst country in the world. Nor am I claiming that any or all other countries are better or worse in any way. Every country has their issues, and that's a fact.

However, America and it's American people are very well known for their absolute love for their country (generally speaking of course). Flags everywhere, chanting "USA, USA, USA!!!" to just about anything, and a seemingly unwavering patriotic mentality. Many American's are excessively proud about their country; and there is nothing wrong with that. However, when the American Government declassifies information about specific actions they take that most would deem "beyond moral reason", many Americans do not even get phased by the information. Some are patriotic to a fault.

This is more of a question than a release of new information, as these declassified files aren't entirely new, and many of them are well known. My question is directed to those American's who still feel that they would bleed on the flag to keep it's stripes red. The American citizens who are seemingly incapable of changing their view about their country. I ask, how do you do it?

Here is the source of this information

1) The US government intentionally poisoned and murdered hundreds of it's citizens by tainting alcohol because it believed it to be a prohibited substance. By adding deadly chemicals to alcohol, they hoped the side effects would be taken notice by their citizens and thus their citizens would steer away from the drink.

The 18th Amendment, which took effect in January 1920, banned the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol — but not consumption. Despite the government's efforts, alcoholism actually skyrocketed during the era.

To keep up with America's thirst, bootleggers not only created their own alcohol but also stole industrial versions, rendered undrinkable by the inclusion of certain chemicals (namely methyl alcohol). Liquor syndicates then employed chemists to "re-nature" the alcohol once again, making it safe for consumption, according to Deborah Blum, author of "The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York."

By mid-1927, however, the U.S. government added much deadlier chemicals — kerosene, chloroform, and acetone among those most well known — which made alcohol more difficult to render consumable again. Adding 10% more methyl alcohol caused the worst efforts.

Although New York City's chief medical examiner, Charles Norris, tried to publicize the dangers, in 1926, poisonous alcohol killed 400 in the city. The next year, 700 died.

2) The U.S. Public Health Service lied about treating black men with syphilis for more than 40 years, to see how syphilis would develop if untreated.

In 1932, the Public Health Service collaborated with the Tuskegee Institute to record the history of syphilis in the black male community, hoping to justify a treatment program.

Called the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male, the study initially included 600 black men — 399 with the disease and 201 without. While the men were told they would receive treatment, however, the researchers never provided adequate treatment for the disease. Even when penicillin became the preferred and available treatment for syphilis, researchers kept their subjects in the dark.

3) Parts of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which led to U.S. intervention in Vietnam, never happened.

After evading a torpedo attack, the USS Maddox reportedly engaged three North Vietnamese boats in the Gulf of Tonkin on both Aug. 2 and 4, 1964, according to the Pentagon Papers. Although without U.S. casualties, the events prompted Congress to pass a resolution allowing President Lyndon John to intervene in the Southeast.

Talk of Tonkin's status as a "false flag" for U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War has permeated public discourse almost since the time of the attacks, especially after the government admitted that the second incident may have involved false radar images.

But after resisting comment for decades, the National Security Agency finally declassified documents in 2005, admitting the incident on Aug. 4 never happened at all.

4) The government tested the effects of L.S.D. on unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens.

Under the code name "MKUltra," the U.S. government ran a human-research operation within the CIA's Scientific Research Division. Researchers tested the effects of hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, torture, and most memorably, L.S.D., on U.S. and Canadian citizens. Most had no idea.

To conduct these experiments, the CIA paid prisons, hospitals, and other institutions to keep quiet. The department even enticed heroin addicts to participate by offering them heroin, according to documents from a joint hearing to subcommittees of Congress, where President Kennedy spoke.

That day, he regaled Congress with "chilling testimony." Over 30 universities became involved in various studies. Notably, many lacked oversight by medical or scientific professionals. At least one participant, Frank Olsen, died, reportedly from suicide after unknowingly ingesting L.S.D..

There are countless others, and many more that are still classified. We see these same terrible choices even today, the only difference is that the US Government hasn't outwardly clarified that our suspicions are valid, yet.

9/11, the Sandy Hook Shooting, the invasion of the middle-east, so on and so forth.

How can anyone really be so proud of their country if they outwardly admit that they have lied to their citizens, have murdered their citizens, have forced those that want to protect their country by serving in their military to go to war for nothing more than made up instances?

Again, I understand that other countries may be just as bad or even worse, and I understand that not all Americans are patriotic, but it's the ones that do blind-follow and accept everything their government feeds them that makes me so confused as to why they still are.

a reply to: Ghost147

Flags everywhere, chanting "USA, USA, USA!!!" to just about anything, and a seemingly unwavering patriotic mentality.

On TV, right?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Ghost147

Flags everywhere, chanting "USA, USA, USA!!!" to just about anything, and a seemingly unwavering patriotic mentality.

On TV, right?

No, not just on TV. I've seen it in person

I think your confusing love of country with politicians...

I love the constitution and bill of rights...I think most politicians aren't worth a sparrows fart in a whirl wind.

The two are radically different, to me you can love your country without loving every single thing the politicians do.

a reply to: Ghost147

Flags everywhere, chanting "USA, USA, USA!!!" to just about anything, and a seemingly unwavering patriotic mentality.

I've only ever seen this happen on TV. Sports and such.

We do it in England as well.



As for your list...
Only a few times have I ever seen anyone try to justify those things...



Remember though, it's not the Land or Banner that did those things...

It's Humans.

patriotic pride is a powerful incentive to accept what you might otherwise find objectionable, and endorse bad government by inaction. patriotism is persuasive to certain mindsets more than specific nationalities, i would say. for myself, i'm every bit as proud of my queen and country as they deserve. which is, not at all.

There are sheep everywhere; in every country, in every culture.

If whatever the government does doesn't affect them in a tangible way, they can forget about it rather easily. (Life goes back to "Normal" for them)

a reply to: Ghost147

America isn't as America y as you may think it is.. I am not saying you are wrong, just a little over exaggeration. For instance no one I know has ever put up an American Flag. Wait let me think make sure.. Nope 9/11 a few of the neighbors, but I didn't know them so there.

As far as being Proud of America. I'm not really. But I could be again one day.

In fact I really just want to be left alone.

Irony?

Oh yea son!

originally posted by: Ghost147
Just to clarify, I'm not saying America is the worst country in the world. Nor am I claiming that any or all other countries are better or worse in any way. Every country has their issues, and that's a fact.

However, America and it's American people are very well known for their absolute love for their country (generally speaking of course). Flags everywhere, chanting "USA, USA, USA!!!" to just about anything, and a seemingly unwavering patriotic mentality. Many American's are excessively proud about their country; and there is nothing wrong with that. However, when the American Government declassifies information about specific actions they take that most would deem "beyond moral reason", many Americans do not even get phased by the information. Some are patriotic to a fault.

This is more of a question than a release of new information, as these declassified files aren't entirely new, and many of them are well known. My question is directed to those American's who still feel that they would bleed on the flag to keep it's stripes red. The American citizens who are seemingly incapable of changing their view about their country. I ask, how do you do it?

Here is the source of this information

1) The US government intentionally poisoned and murdered hundreds of it's citizens by tainting alcohol because it believed it to be a prohibited substance. By adding deadly chemicals to alcohol, they hoped the side effects would be taken notice by their citizens and thus their citizens would steer away from the drink.

The 18th Amendment, which took effect in January 1920, banned the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol — but not consumption. Despite the government's efforts, alcoholism actually skyrocketed during the era.

To keep up with America's thirst, bootleggers not only created their own alcohol but also stole industrial versions, rendered undrinkable by the inclusion of certain chemicals (namely methyl alcohol). Liquor syndicates then employed chemists to "re-nature" the alcohol once again, making it safe for consumption, according to Deborah Blum, author of "The Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York."

By mid-1927, however, the U.S. government added much deadlier chemicals — kerosene, chloroform, and acetone among those most well known — which made alcohol more difficult to render consumable again. Adding 10% more methyl alcohol caused the worst efforts.

Although New York City's chief medical examiner, Charles Norris, tried to publicize the dangers, in 1926, poisonous alcohol killed 400 in the city. The next year, 700 died.

2) The U.S. Public Health Service lied about treating black men with syphilis for more than 40 years, to see how syphilis would develop if untreated.

In 1932, the Public Health Service collaborated with the Tuskegee Institute to record the history of syphilis in the black male community, hoping to justify a treatment program.

Called the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male, the study initially included 600 black men — 399 with the disease and 201 without. While the men were told they would receive treatment, however, the researchers never provided adequate treatment for the disease. Even when penicillin became the preferred and available treatment for syphilis, researchers kept their subjects in the dark.

3) Parts of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which led to U.S. intervention in Vietnam, never happened.

After evading a torpedo attack, the USS Maddox reportedly engaged three North Vietnamese boats in the Gulf of Tonkin on both Aug. 2 and 4, 1964, according to the Pentagon Papers. Although without U.S. casualties, the events prompted Congress to pass a resolution allowing President Lyndon John to intervene in the Southeast.

Talk of Tonkin's status as a "false flag" for U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War has permeated public discourse almost since the time of the attacks, especially after the government admitted that the second incident may have involved false radar images.

But after resisting comment for decades, the National Security Agency finally declassified documents in 2005, admitting the incident on Aug. 4 never happened at all.

4) The government tested the effects of L.S.D. on unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens.

Under the code name "MKUltra," the U.S. government ran a human-research operation within the CIA's Scientific Research Division. Researchers tested the effects of hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, torture, and most memorably, L.S.D., on U.S. and Canadian citizens. Most had no idea.

To conduct these experiments, the CIA paid prisons, hospitals, and other institutions to keep quiet. The department even enticed heroin addicts to participate by offering them heroin, according to documents from a joint hearing to subcommittees of Congress, where President Kennedy spoke.

That day, he regaled Congress with "chilling testimony." Over 30 universities became involved in various studies. Notably, many lacked oversight by medical or scientific professionals. At least one participant, Frank Olsen, died, reportedly from suicide after unknowingly ingesting L.S.D..

There are countless others, and many more that are still classified. We see these same terrible choices even today, the only difference is that the US Government hasn't outwardly clarified that our suspicions are valid, yet.

9/11, the Sandy Hook Shooting, the invasion of the middle-east, so on and so forth.

How can anyone really be so proud of their country if they outwardly admit that they have lied to their citizens, have murdered their citizens, have forced those that want to protect their country by serving in their military to go to war for nothing more than made up instances?

Again, I understand that other countries may be just as bad or even worse, and I understand that not all Americans are patriotic, but it's the ones that do blind-follow and accept everything their government feeds them that makes me so confused as to why they still are.

THese are bad, but not even the worst by any means.

All it takes is an honest study of American foreign intervention to stop being proud.

1) Latin America: The CIA factually overthrew a number of democratically elected governments, then installing dictators, then helping train death squads to suppress the inevitable reaction. Well-documented. In Guatemala alone the US supported gov killed 200,000-300,000 indigenous people.

2) Vietnam: All about geo-political hegemony. Proxy war with USSR. US dropped, in violation even of its own war rules, more bombs on Cambodia and Laos I believe than all of the bombs it dropped in WWII. Also agent orange on unsuspecting population.

3) Iraq War: Illegal and based on lies. Resulted in approximately 200,000 civilian deaths.

4) CIA torture, now admitted.

I'm an American, and I lost pride in my country after all of this.

Canadians hating on Americans again . What a surprise?



Why don't you name one country in existence that hasn't done shameful things in their past and see whether it's citizens still love their country ?


For the English and Canadians Henry Hamilton comes to mind, you've heard of him the hair buyer ?

originally posted by: ProfessorChaos
There are sheep everywhere; in every country, in every culture.

If whatever the government does doesn't affect them in a tangible way, they can forget about it rather easily. (Life goes back to "Normal" for them)

Now this, is true. Cognitive dissonance makes people not want to lose their 8th grade social studies perspective on life.

Also, however, we have to recognize the reality that most people are not scholars. The media basically tows the government line, so a lot of people simply aren't aware of a lot of history or what is going on.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Ghost147

Flags everywhere, chanting "USA, USA, USA!!!" to just about anything, and a seemingly unwavering patriotic mentality.

On TV, right?

No, not just on TV. I've seen it in person

The whole country? Or a sporting event, maybe? My point is that image you have of the USA chant drone is really not representative of most Americans ideology. They aren't shouting USA because right now they aren't proud of the direction this country is heading. The few that are the loudest are not the majority.

The US government is off the tracks, not US people.

a reply to: Greathouse

Perhaps you didn't read my post. But I clearly stated that I understand every country has their issues. It's just that some Americans make it excessively apparent that they would do anything and accept anything that their country has to offer.

please be more careful before you respond.

originally posted by: Greathouse
Canadians hating on Americans again . What a surprise?



Why don't you name one country in existence that hasn't done shameful things in their past and see whether it's citizens still love their country ?


For the English and Canadians Henry Hamilton comes to mind, you've heard of him the hair buyer ?

A fair point.

But arguably, the US is doing many of the most empire like, colonial actions NOW. Most of the developed countries are not. Iraq just happened. The US gov is trying to overthrow Syria. It helped with Libya. The CIA just came out as having tortured people.

The point is, this is not like European colonialism that is largely in the past. The reality is the US is still doing this stuff.

a reply to: Irishhaf

When I view Patriotism, I have a tendency of viewing it as a love for everything that makes up a country, including government (obviously not every single politician, but generally speaking). Is that not the case? or is Patriotism more of an individual view-point type thing? (This isn't meant to sound sarcastic)

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: Greathouse

Perhaps you didn't read my post. But I clearly stated that I understand every country has their issues. It's just that some Americans make it excessively apparent that they would do anything and accept anything that their country has to offer.

please be more careful before you respond.

I read your entire OP my question was why do you single America out? You wouldn't happen to have any other motive behind this thread would you?

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

But arguably, the US is doing many of the most empire like, colonial actions NOW.

First of all most of the claims in the OP referred to the past not NOW. If you want to look at the past American actions pale in comparison to the British Empire .

a reply to: Greathouse

I explained that in my OP. It's because some Americans tend to be particularly loud with their unquestionable love for their country. It's also because America itself really tries to push patriotism amongst their citizens. Some buy it, some don't. The question was directed at those who do accept everything that the US government feeds them.

There is no hidden agenda behind this thread. It's about psychology.

a reply to: Ghost147

So I suppose your last rant about Americans wearing shoes in the house was only about footwear ? Your motivation is clear no matter how you attempt to disguise it .

a reply to: Ghost147

So I suppose your last rant about Americans wearing shoes in the house was only about footwear ?



Your motivation is clear no matter how you attempt to disguise it .