A Ritch Jesus?!?! (Seeking updated info)

a reply to: Cinrad

It's one thing to be poor and tell others to be poor. It's another to walk away from serious wealth and to be poor which is what I believe he did. Quite similar to sidhartha. (Among other things)

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Cinrad

It's one thing to be poor and tell others to be poor. It's another to walk away from serious wealth and to be poor which is what I believe he did. Quite similar to sidhartha. (Among other things)

I am not a Christian or a believer. However I don't see how Joseph of airemathea (Jesus's uncle) could be the third ritchest guy in judea and Jesus me poor.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Cinrad

It's one thing to be poor and tell others to be poor. It's another to walk away from serious wealth and to be poor which is what I believe he did. Quite similar to sidhartha. (Among other things)

You are talking about Francis of Asisi, not Jesus, all the gospels point to the opposite of this.

originally posted by: Entreri06

I am not a Christian or a believer. However I don't see how Joseph of airemathea (Jesus's uncle) could be the third ritchest guy in judea and Jesus me poor.

Why do you think that Joseph of Arimathea was related to Jesus? Why would he be know as the Carpenter's son?

Mat 13:54 and went back to his hometown. He taught in the synagogue, and those who heard him were amazed. "Where did he get such wisdom?" they asked. "And what about his miracles?
Mat 13:55 Isn't he the carpenter's son? Isn't Mary his mother, and aren't James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas his brothers?
Mat 13:56 Aren't all his sisters living here? Where did he get all this?"
Mat 13:57 And so they rejected him.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
He contributed nothing new or revolutionary in humanity... He just copied others

I'd never use the word 'just' to describe what Jesus did. He introduced freedom of the spirit to groups of people who were enslaved through indoctrination to religions that were mundane in their nature. 'Eat bacon or lobster and go to hell' (Jews). 'Worship Caesar as God on Earth and follow his every command' (Romans). etc. He died for freedom for their souls. This was new to the people he touched. And what he taught perfected that which was floating around the area here and there. He drove it home.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

Dear FlyersFan, I didn't really used the word 'just', to describe what Jesus did, b cause no one can actually prove what he did and if he existed,
My use of the word ''just'' was to describe what the apostles copied from the soon to extinct writings of the philosophers of their time, to describe their picture of the Jewish messiah, in their gospels, epistles, and various proclaimed ''accounts'' of Jesus.

He introduced freedom of the spirit to groups of people who were enslaved He died for freedom for their souls. This was new to the people he touched. And what he taught perfected that which was floating around the area here and there. He drove it home.

giving hope to the enslaved was not new either, as for self sacrifice, for the freedom of other souls and the greater good, see Socrates, Orpheus, Attis of Phrygia, Horus, Perseus etc.

Back then, all this Jesus idea sounded new only to the ignorant and uneducated *, who were those groups targeted by the apostles to proselytize and build upon them their organization.
And the words of Jesus (as written by the apostles) didn't perfected any existing philosophy teachings, on the contrary...

''He drove it home.''
-but the car was stolen, broken and without a license... hehe

*. I don't want to offend anyone's beliefs, just stating facts
Today's christians have very little in common to those early ''christians'', they know way more about their religion and they are usually nice people and not uneducated, hatred, ignorant, barbaric and opportunity revolutionists, as the early ones were(~90ad - 1950ad)

a reply to: Dr1Akula

Um all the early Christians were pacifists. Read some history. It was not christians who tried to start war with Rome but the zealots.

a reply to: Cinrad

Let me give you two points about this to think about. Jesus' uncle Zachariah was a priest. And not a lowly priest but one who served the inner court. Priests were not poor. And generally the elites didn't marry commoners. So Mary's aunt Elizabeth was probably not poor and thus mary was probably not poor. We don't know this for sure but that is generally the way things were.

John the disciple whom Jesus loved was able to walk around the high priests home with no fear and it seems he was recognized. This could indicate that he was also priestly stock. And if you believe that he wrote revelation then it becomes more clear that he was a priest as the whole book is a vision of the temple and the writer has a very good understanding of the symbols and cultus of the temple which would not be possible for a commoner.

I'll add one more for good measure. Peter and Andrew likely had a fishing business With multiple boats. Poor people didn't have access to that sort of wealth.

No this doesn't make the story of arimathea being Jesus uncle true. But paints a different picture than the common held view that these were common peasants.

The quote in Matthew about Jesus not having any learning would make sense if he was an essene and or first temple priest since it didn't fit within their predefined orthodoxy. Kind of like how if Jesus showed up today the religious would crucify him again.

a reply to: zardust

so pacifists that they tortured pagan priests, skinned alive philosophers, persecuted all pagans, destroyed all knowledge that didn't suit their dogma(agenda), burned down libraries, destroyed temples, art, science and acted hatred in their societies hating everything and everyone they accused to be satanic in their pathetic ignorant and narrow minded dogmatic point of view, creating enemies everywhere....

Read some history

hahahaha

a reply to: Dr1Akula

That was all after Constantine. The first 300 years christians were the ones being fed to lions. Then it became part of empire. And then what you speak of is true.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula
a reply to: zardust

so pacifists that they tortured pagan priests, skinned alive philosophers, persecuted all pagans, destroyed all knowledge that didn't suit their dogma(agenda), burned down libraries, destroyed temples, art, science and acted hatred in their societies hating everything and everyone they accused to be satanic in their pathetic ignorant and narrow minded dogmatic point of view, creating enemies everywhere....

Read some history

hahahaha

He's right. All of that came AFTER Christianity began to dominate the politician system. Almost no religion has attack nonbelievers when not in power. I'm pretty sure even Buddhism has atrocities laid at it's feet .


I'm an atheist who is really irked by the coservative conspiracy Christian movement. But let's keep it fair. Christianity is neither a bastion of morality nor a genocide factory. It's all depended on who they put in charge.

Hell, perfect examples:


Good Christian theology: present pope!


Bad Christianity: hitler

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Dr1Akula

That was all after Constantine. The first 300 years christians were the ones being fed to lions. Then it became part of empire. And then what you speak of is true.

The very first christian were the apostles, you can't find earlier than them.
They were the ones that organized the christian religion with their epistles that we now know as gospels
And the very first thing the apostles were propagating into Christianity was the despise of the pagan societies and their way of living, making them believe bad things (disaster, earthquakes, illnesses) happened to them because they worshiped statues instead of a tortured man on a cross. (which still is a statue but anyway...)
And how evil and satanic the pagan festivals, tradition, science and philosophies were .
The apostles were the instigators, of the pagan ''holocaust'' that came ~300 year after, the destruction of art, architecture, science, philosophy and healthy values, and the rise of superstitious insanity that lead to the dark ages and millions of people tortured, killed and suffered in the name of their god.

They stole various wise quotes of famous Philosophers of their time that talked about love justice and understanding and putted together with their propaganda in the worst way possible to write their gospels. That's the main reason we have so many contradictions in the bible.

The apostles were Jews and hate for pagans was nothing new for the ancient Jews, and more so in the time of the apostles were they waited for their messiah to come and free them from the Romans.
Jews also despised pagans because, all their rulers, enemies (Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans )were pagan and they also believed they (Romans, Greeks) destroyed their beloved temple of solomon.

We can see this hate clearly in OT

2 Kings 11:18
All the people of the land went to the temple of Baal and tore it down. They smashed the altars and idols to pieces and killed Mattan the priest of Baal in front of the altars. Then Jehoiada the priest posted guards at the temple of the LORD.

Leviticus 26:30
I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

2 Kings 10:25
As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: "Go in and kill them; let no one escape." So they cut them down with the sword.

So much love...

This hate for Pagans continues in the NT with more political propaganda where the beast of revelations is Nero, the Demons that haunted Jesus were the morals and pagan ethics of their societies...etc

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
-Luke 19:27

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21


The first followers of this political propaganda we now call early christianity, that targeted at first all the poor, ignorant, uneducated and suppressed people of their societies, ended in a ''revolution'' movement against the established polytheistic religion
Way before 330ad
Some groups of early christians, burned temples, broke statues, killed or raped priestess, layed feces inside the sacred pagan sites, and many other atrocities and acts of disgrace,

Those who got caught were the first ''martyrs'' that were send to the Lions...
This lead their pagan societies to see christians as enemies (revolutionists, terrorists call them what you like) and this was the beginning of the persecution of christians which unfortunately (imo) ended quick because after 100 years they were seen as victims which lead the Romans to ''legalize'' christianity... the biggest mistake they ever made, having in mind what happened later.

originally posted by: Entreri06
He's right...... But let's keep it fair. Christianity is neither a bastion of morality nor a genocide factory.

No he is not right... see the above

I am afraid it was.... a genocide factory (well described)

I respect your opinion my friend, but I believe modern christians are way better in every aspect than the early ones and those who followed until ~1900ad

The last 100 years (or so) the church has made massive steps into reality, and various moral issues...

a reply to: Dr1Akula

Um ok. You obviously haven't read any actual history. Read about the Romans complaining that the christians were pacifists. They did not participate in politics or the military for quite sometime. Yes imposters creeped on and subverted them and religion took over. But that wasn't for a couple hundred years.

The book of revelation is not to be taken literally. And the apostles and Jesus very creatively cherry picked and reworked the Old Testament even turning texts meaning around completely. The scriptures you posted were not endorsed in their literal manner by Jesus or his apostles as most believe and you are assuming.

But seriously read secular history and you will see by and large the first 300 years were very different.

a reply to: zardust

Um ok. You obviously haven't read any actual history. Read about the Romans complaining that the christians were .

I actually have and I don't even care what kind of roman called them ''pacifists'' - instead of feeding them to the lions - but I do know that christian historians did.
But they weren't pacifists, and history (that you say I should read) proves it

All religious traditions had been tolerated under the Roman Empire, although Christians suffered to some extent because of their sedition. They stated openly how hatred they were about their pagan religion and way of life, and how satanic the polytheists were, and that they desired the destruction of the Empire, encouraged soldiers to desert, apparently assassinated opponents, vandalized sacred monuments and statues, and tried to destroy the city of Rome by means of arson.

You call that pacifism?

So no they were not pacifists just because they talked about pacifist ideas (life of christ),
or just because very few of them were.
They just have been glorified as pacifists from the church, and until recent times you would be burned alive if you claimed otherwise!!!
which I think somehow could interfere with some of the otherwise objective, medieval historian's work. ''cherry picking through ancient texts''!
In the end, actions count more than words

For. ex Muslim terrorist are also seen as martyrs by some according to their holy book,
Their holy book has many pacifistic ideas inside, should we call those muslims pacifists?


The ''didn't serve the army'' thing is also a big lie...
There were so many christians that served in the army, and the presence of large numbers of christians in his army have been a factor in the conversion of Constantine to Christianity.

So how many of them exactly, if any, were the pacifists?

Anyone who spreads hate and intolerance can't claim to be a pacifist,
Church spread ignorance everywhere trying to hide their bloody past.
covering their hate and intolerance for others with a fake veil of love and love thy neighbor etc. which were stolen philosophical ideas anyway.

The book of revelation is not to be taken literally.

You choose not to take it literally, but how do you know how these books should be taken?
Did you write it?
did you know the writer, gospels were just epistles, how can we know for sure the writers intentions?
How can we know fro sure the book of revelations for example is to be taken as a prophecy and not as a command?
since christians trying to be like Jesus when they read about Jesus vengeance to the sinners in Rev with all these bizzare details, it provokes them (at least the narrow minded to act violently to sinners as well.

So in the end you don't really know anything more about the bible, than me or anyone else
you just guess, how it should be read, and make assumptions from there on.... just like what the church does.

a reply to: Entreri06
a reply to: seentoomuch

Glenn Kimball... RIP, my friend.

I have nothing but good things to say about Glenn Kimball. He and his books and his website opened up a whole new world of knowledge for me. History and historical documents were Glenn's passion, and he was just as passionate about sharing it with the world. Back in the latter 90s, when I would call to order books, he always answered the phone himself, was always happy to talk and answer questions, and recommend books (both his own, and others'). He was absolutely fascinating to talk to, and he never disappointed me in his recommendations either. When Glenn was still alive, his website had hundreds -- if not thousands -- of links to ancient manuscripts and documents, as well as other interesting (and intriguing) websites. He had a newsletter that was always a good read as well. I miss him, and his website.

According to Glenn, Joseph of Arimathea was the brother of St Anne, (mother of Mary and grandmother of Jesus), making Joseph of Arimathea uncle and great-uncle respectively. Joseph of Arimathea was the "nobilis de curio" for Rome, procuring tin for Rome from the mines in Cornwall. He was presumably able to do so because his family was British nobility... who were descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel, who had migrated to western Europe/Britain. One story goes that on one of Joseph of Arimathea's trips to Cornwall from the middle east, St Anne returned to the middle east with him to flee an abusive husband/marriage, subsequently marrying Joachim/Heli in Judah.

Seentoomuch -- I have all three of the books you ordered. "The Politics of the Crucifixion" gave me a whole new perspective to consider regarding everything Biblical,,, it expanded my perspective. I hope you read that first! It's a pretty quick read. "The Holy Kingdom" is a very long read, but worth it. That's one of those books that you have to read more than once to fully absorb all the information and its implications...and I think I will have to read it again now! If you like those, I would also recommend "The Drama of the Lost Disciples," by George F Jowett. Lots of political perspective in that one too. And "St Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury," by Lionel Smithett Lewis. (Glenn recommended both of those to me).

a reply to: Boadicea

Hi BD!

Thanks for the insight on Glenn Kimball. So sad that he is not with us now. So far I've received delivery of 2 of his books and yeah, they look like I'll be able to read them in an afternoon or two. So thanks again for recommending the other books, I'll order them today on Amazon.

STM

a reply to: Dr1Akula

you are wrong I'm sorry but what you are describing did not take place with early christians. Please, there is very diverse evidence outside of the bible that the early Christians were the opposite of what you are saying. They would leave the military yes. Why? Because they had become pacifists. It was the very nature of Jesus teaching. Yes christians (those involved in the institution that is the whore of Babylon) now and for the past 1700 years have been doing all that you say. That is why she is called the whore.

As for the literalism of revelation I don't care to get into it with you for I don't think you will even listen. I'll just say this which is how the early Christians saw the scriptures. "The letter kills. But the spirit gives life" it's the way Jesus interpreted the scriptures which was against the literal destructive views of the Pharisees who were by the way a plant by the empire from Babylon/Persia. And yes the early Christians wanted the fall of the empire but it was by the blood of the lamb which means that of the victim. Think Martin Luther king or Gandhi with passive resistance which often gets you killed. Eventually yes they became the killers but not until Constantine or just before, and definitely not the first century. The Christians fled the city to Pella when Rome sacked the city of Jerusalem in 70 ad. It was the zealotswho stayed and fought and their bodies thrown into hell. Here is a perfect example of allegory and Jesus actually. You see when Jesus speaks of people being thrown into hell in his little apocalypse in Matthew it's the word Gehenna which is the valley of Ben Hinnom. That is a real place right outside Jerusalem that the Jews defiled themselves and passed their children brought the fire to moloch. And God said I would never have even thought about doing such. ( which is opposite to the modern version of hell).

Anyway what Jesus is warning about of being thrown in hell/Gehenna is those who use violence to overcome the empire which is what was brewing in Judea. And when they did revolt a they were slaughtered and their bodies were thrown into the garbage dump and burned. That dump is Gehenna.

They tried to make him king the warrior king that would throw off the empire. But his kingdom was not of this world. It does not operate by the worlds means which is through violence. And so they went from hailing him as King to crucifying him. Because he didn't fit he bill for their messiah. When he first sat down in the synagogue and read from the scroll of Isaiah he was reading a very well known passage. It is "the lord has anointed me to bring good news, break the bonds, set the captives free" (my version I'm on my phone but that's the jist. But he left out their favorite part. The passage finishes with the wrath of God destroying the Gentiles and crowning Israel as the head of the world empire. But he didn't include that part. Very specifically. And guess what. Hey tried to kill him right after that.

I am not a Christian. I refuse that title because of the nonsense and antichrist nature of Christians which you have described. But what Christians have done is not what Christ taught. It is the empire speaking.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Dr1Akula

you are wrong I'm sorry but what you are describing did not take place with early christians. Please, there is very diverse evidence outside of the bible that the early Christians were the opposite of what you are saying. They would leave the military yes. Why? Because they had become pacifists. It was the very nature of Jesus teaching. Yes christians (those involved in the institution that is the whore of Babylon) now and for the past 1700 years have been doing all that you say. That is why she is called the whore.

As for the literalism of revelation I don't care to get into it with you for I don't think you will even listen. I'll just say this which is how the early Christians saw the scriptures. "The letter kills. But the spirit gives life" it's the way Jesus interpreted the scriptures which was against the literal destructive views of the Pharisees who were by the way a plant by the empire from Babylon/Persia. And yes the early Christians wanted the fall of the empire but it was by the blood of the lamb which means that of the victim. Think Martin Luther king or Gandhi with passive resistance which often gets you killed. Eventually yes they became the killers but not until Constantine or just before, and definitely not the first century. The Christians fled the city to Pella when Rome sacked the city of Jerusalem in 70 ad. It was the zealotswho stayed and fought and their bodies thrown into hell. Here is a perfect example of allegory and Jesus actually. You see when Jesus speaks of people being thrown into hell in his little apocalypse in Matthew it's the word Gehenna which is the valley of Ben Hinnom. That is a real place right outside Jerusalem that the Jews defiled themselves and passed their children brought the fire to moloch. And God said I would never have even thought about doing such. ( which is opposite to the modern version of hell).

Anyway what Jesus is warning about of being thrown in hell/Gehenna is those who use violence to overcome the empire which is what was brewing in Judea. And when they did revolt a they were slaughtered and their bodies were thrown into the garbage dump and burned. That dump is Gehenna.

They tried to make him king the warrior king that would throw off the empire. But his kingdom was not of this world. It does not operate by the worlds means which is through violence. And so they went from hailing him as King to crucifying him. Because he didn't fit he bill for their messiah. When he first sat down in the synagogue and read from the scroll of Isaiah he was reading a very well known passage. It is "the lord has anointed me to bring good news, break the bonds, set the captives free" (my version I'm on my phone but that's the jist. But he left out their favorite part. The passage finishes with the wrath of God destroying the Gentiles and crowning Israel as the head of the world empire. But he didn't include that part. Very specifically. And guess what. Hey tried to kill him right after that.

I am not a Christian. I refuse that title because of the nonsense and antichrist nature of Christians which you have described. But what Christians have done is not what Christ taught. It is the empire speaking.

I agree with most of your interpretation of modern Christianity. Espeacially the part about the vast majority being roman propaganda added later.



However the poster your replying to is right as well.

There are definately accounts of early Christian zealotry and there definatly are real life historians who think it was those zealots were the ones who set "neros fire". Which was the catalyst for all the burnings and stuff.


It's insane to believe that anchient Christians seperated by thousands of miles and decades were any less varied then modern ones. I'm sure you had pacifist Christians, criminally insane Christian, Christians who devoted there lives to helping others and Christians who used there personal flavor to influence politics.


There is no one box you can put ANY large group of people into. We really are all unique snowflakes lol.

a reply to: Entreri06

Yes you are correct. But I'd call those judaizers as Paul did. But they were the exception. The hallmark of christianity was they were known for their pacifism. As time went on the life slipped away from "the way" as they were called and the dead religion of empire overtook them which lead us to modern Christianity.

Jesus was indeed wealthy as were his family. His connections were common knowledge and his lineage as next in line to the throne of David was also common knowledge. He was often referred to as the Son of David, an aristocrat not the lowly humble carpenter all meek and mild. How do we know this? From reading the bible and taking into account the culture and politics of the time. Carpenters were never considered lowly in any event, anyone with a trade was respected and every Rabbi was required to have a trade. He was clearly very well educated as he taught in various synagogues and must have known Hebrew law inside out for he was often able to quote passages back at his critics, it should also be noted that these critics and indeed some of his enemies referred to him as The Master or The Teacher. He had many rich and influential friends which included Chuza the King's Steward and Lazarus who's home was always open to Jesus and upon Lazarus' death, Chuza's wife attended Lazarus's sisters to comfort them. These were not poor wretched people.

Consider this, if Jesus was so poor and poverty stricken, why then is it stated in the Bible that the Roman soldiers fought over his clothes at the crucifixion? Because they were so fine and of good quality they actually "cast lots" to see who could get them. If Jesus was so meek and humble as portrayed in the christian Bible, then why is he described throughout the bible with lines such as "He spoke as one having authority" or "his word was with power". He was impressive powerful and commanding. Even on the night of his arrest the soldiers that came to arrest him with frightened by his presence and indeed retreated backwards and prostrated themselves such was his commanding presence (John 18.6)

So the Jesus we have been taught about in our sunday schools and religious classes never existed. The Jesus of the Gospels was a well dressed, commanding authoratitive magentic nobleman who could even put fear into the Romans! Not suprising then that the higher ups wanted him dead

The last thing the Roman Governor at the time wanted was some messiah popping up claiming the throne in the name of David that would not go down well in Rome.