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Two Brothers from the same Father separately created Judaism and Islam

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posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:42 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing
You're using the capitalized "Faith." Not the same thing as faith.

How about I use bubble script? It floats.


Phage: If faith were the only issue it wouldn't matter. If faith is actually faith, what does it matter what anyone else believes? The roots of the conflict go far, far beyond "faith" into issues of ownership. The roots of the conflict go into the transition of tribal culture into civilization. A nomadic culture conflicts with a civilized culture. Faith has little to do with it.

Faith in a belief system kills people that do not hold with that dogma. Witness ancient Roman Paganism VS 100 AD.Christian ideology. Witness Tibetan Buddhism VS Chinese Communism. Tribal culture? Vatican City is not mobile (its an independent City State).




posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:46 PM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing



Witness ancient Roman Paganism VS 100 AD.Christian ideology.

The Romans were non-discriminatory in their brutality.



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:49 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Islam came into being thousands of years after Judaism.

The sibling rivalry which became tribal enmity, preceded the codification of both faiths.

(But actually, if you read the entire history, they reconciled in later years).


So both faiths are reconciled. Israel has nothing to fear from its Islamic neighbors.


The BROTHERS reconciled.

The faiths, which really have nothing to do with them, haven't.

BTW, Mohammed accepted Jewish and Christian Scholars as "people of the book" and brokered a peace between the Jews, the Christians and Islamic followers in the town of Medina and made it a law granting religious freedom (see the Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia).

True Muslims have no issue with other faiths, as do true Jews and true Christians.


I am in understanding of this; what happened to change all perceptions creating the boundaries we are experiencing now; we have religious freedom in the USA; others in the Middle East do not.



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:53 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing
You're using the capitalized "Faith." Not the same thing as faith.

If faith were the only issue it wouldn't matter. If faith is actually faith, what does it matter what anyone else believes? The roots of the conflict go far, far beyond "faith" into issues of ownership. The roots of the conflict go into the transition of tribal culture into civilization. A nomadic culture conflicts with a civilized culture. Faith has little to do with it.

Unless, of course, xenophobia is the basis of that Faith.


Sometimes it has to do. Maybe not directly though.
Take for example the religious ideology of most mesopotamic communities of the ancient near east. The Neoassyrian thought the divine order of things was to have their God in command. Assur (The god and the city) was supposed to rule, anyone who disobeyed or defied the king's command, was disobeying the God. A rebellion, for example, was an expression of chaos, of that which is the oppossite of God. It was the king's task to elminate chaos from the world, to impose and help maintain the divine order designed by the Gods.
So conflict, conquest, war and domination was a religious matter, it had to do with the natural (and divine) order of things. I'm guessing nevertheless that hate is related and a consequence of these things (Conflict, war, etc).



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:54 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing



Witness ancient Roman Paganism VS 100 AD.Christian ideology.

The Romans were non-discriminatory in their brutality.

You are correct; they killed anyone they couldn't enslave, bribe or extort services from.



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:55 PM
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You must be talking of Rabbi Able and Rabbi Cain't



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:55 PM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing

Yes. Nothing to do with a conflict of faith.



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:56 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Islam came into being thousands of years after Judaism.

The sibling rivalry which became tribal enmity, preceded the codification of both faiths.

(But actually, if you read the entire history, they reconciled in later years).



Please post the scripture.



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 10:59 PM
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a reply to: Toolman18

www.strategic-culture.org...

This is a link to the "brothers" story...

Long read but a total mind f*ck!



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:12 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Yes. Nothing to do with a conflict of faith.

They were pagan (Greco/Roman) conquerors. They were afraid of a monotheist belief system that did not include the Roman Caesar as God incarnate; reason? they could not prove it.
edit on 30-5-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Obviously, they weren't.
One is black on the left, the other is black on the right.


Only a prejudiced person would have that opinion .


Potato or Potatoe, it's a philosophical choice ? If you reply with the correction of spelling I'm going to be disappointed in you .



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing
They were afraid of nothing.
They got bored and resorted to spectacle for entertainment. They did not care about the faith of the fodder.



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:28 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing
They were afraid of nothing.
They got bored and resorted to spectacle for entertainment. They did not care about the faith of the fodder.

Boredom? The coliseum theater plays/spectacle events were all about entertaining the masses. Keep them entranced so as not to make an uprising against you. Faith had nothing to do with this. It was all about diversion of interests, watch and see this instead of paying attention! (Machiavelli in reverse). Now you see it now you don't.
edit on 30-5-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:36 PM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing



Faith had nothing to do with this.

That's what I said.


edit on 5/30/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:47 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: vethumanbeing



Faith had nothing to do with this.

That's what I said.


Starred it. Why as the observer does faith have nothing to do with this?



posted on May, 30 2015 @ 11:53 PM
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originally posted by: superluminal11
You must be talking of Rabbi Able and Rabbi Cain't

There seems to be a recurring correlation with all diabolical twin brothers. Able and Cain, Enlil and Enke, Abraham and Isaiah or..
edit on 30-5-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2015 @ 12:15 AM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
What's with all the brief uninformative OPs lately?

On topic...

Who are these brothers?

What are they fighting about?

What started the fighting?


Battle royal regarding religious dogmas. Two brothers of a different belief system walk deep into a corn field each on different rows looking for a fight and only two walk out as equals.
edit on 31-5-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2015 @ 12:32 AM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing

well that took forever haha.

Staring at your signature, and resisting.



posted on May, 31 2015 @ 01:30 AM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
What went wrong within this metaphoric idea form. Two brothers fighting against each other to create separate dogmatic belief systems. Someone has to win? The two are dueling it out in/to this day.



OK, a few things here,

Not the same religion.

Not the same God.

YWHW (Yahweh) vs. Baal Worship

www.answering-islam.org...





And now to summarize the data:

1. According to the Bible, the Ishmaelites were not worshiping Yahweh God.
2. Their alliance with nations that worshiped Baal suggests that they were also worshiping the false god Baal.
3. Both Muslim and non-Muslim sources state that Hubal was recognized as the chief presiding deity of the Kabah.
4. Muhammad’s grandfather worshiped Hubal, and even prayed to Allah while facing Hubal’s idol.
5. The Muslim sources claim that Hubal was brought to Mecca from Syria due to the influence of the Moabites and/or the Amalekites.
6. These nations worshiped Baal which demonstrates that Hubal is actually the Arabic form of Hebrew Ha Baal or the Baal.

The foregoing seriously damages the Muslim claim regarding Allah in pre-Islamic times being the same God of Abraham. The assertion that the pre-Islamic Ishmaelites worshiped the same God cannot be maintained in light of the Psalm’s clear statement that they, along with a host of other pagan nations, hated and opposed Yahweh and his covenant people Israel.

The evidence linking Allah with Hubal implies this as well. Hence, if the Muslim contention that the Meccan Arabs are Ishmaelites is correct, then the god of Mecca, the Allah of pre-Islamic Arabia, is actually the false god Baal.

----------------------

According to this Psalm the Ishmaelites, at least from the period between 1000-400 BC., were part of the nations who hated both the true God and his covenant people.

The Psalmist asks God to bring utter destruction upon these nations so that they may come to the realization that Yahweh alone is the Most High God over the earth.

This means that if the Muslim claims regarding the Meccan Arabs being descendents of Ishmael are correct, then the Allah of pre-Islamic Mecca was a false god. He couldn’t have been the same God worshiped by Jews and Christians.

In fact, there is evidence which points to Baal being the high god worshiped by the Meccans!

For instance, there seems to be a broad consensus that the high god of Mecca was Hubal: "... The great god of Mecca was Hubal, an idol of carnelian." (Maxime Rodinson, Muhammad [New Press, NY, May 2000 ISBN: 1565847520], p. 16)
"... The Ka'ba which may have initially been a shrine of Hubal alone, housed several idols ..." (Rodinson, p. 40; underlined emphasis ours)

"... The presiding deity was Hubal, a large carnelian kept inside the temple; 360 other idols were arranged outside ..." (Malise Ruthven, Islam in the World [Oxford University Press, Second edition 2000], p. 15; underlined emphasis ours)

"... Although originally under the aegis of the pagan god Hubal, the Makkan haram which centered around the well of Zamzam, may have become associated with the ancestral figures of Ibrahim and Isma'il as the Arab traders, shedding their parochial backgrounds sought to locate themselves within the broader reference-frame of Judeo-Christianity." (Ibid., p. 17)

"... the god of Makka, Hubal, represented by a statue of red carnelian, is thought to have been originally a totem of the Khuza'a, rulers of Makka before their displacement by the Quraysh ..." (Ibid. p. 28; underlined emphasis ours)

"... At the time of Muhammad, the Ka'abah was OFFICIALLY DEDICATED to the god Hubal, a deity who had been imported into Arabia from the Nabateans in what is now Jordan. But the pre-eminence of the shrine as well as the common belief in Mecca seems to suggest that it may have been dedicated originally to al-Llah, the High God of the Arabs ..." (Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet [Harper San Francisco; ISBN: 0062508865; Reprint edition, October 1993], pp. 61-62; bold and capital emphasis ours)

edit on 31-5-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-5-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2015 @ 05:24 AM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
What went wrong within this metaphoric idea form. Two brothers fighting against each other to create separate dogmatic belief systems. Someone has to win? The two are dueling it out in/to this day.

Ahh, the Sunni and the Shia?



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