How does the material brain know the experiences of the material brain?

I was at a cookout on Memorial Day with family and I asked my 6 year old Nephew what was his favorite color. He said red. I asked a couple of the other kids there and I got red, blue, green and 2 yellows. I asked them why these are their favorite colors and they really couldn't explain it but it was their subjective experience.

How does the brain How a person experiences red? How does the brain know this is someones favorite color? How does the brain decide this is your favorite color?

I then watched as my cousins fixed their food. One of my cousins loves potato salad while my other cousin doesn't like it and didn't want any on his plate. Why is that? What is my cousins experience that makes him like it vs, my cousins experience that makes him not like it? How does the material brain know this? What does potato salad taste like? When my cousin eats potato salad does it taste like what I think potato salad taste like?

When you go to Subway, why does the same sandwich sometimes taste like the greatest sandwich in the world and then you get the same sandwich a month later and it's just okay? How does the material brain know this?

What does it mean to say something taste like hamburger? Is the experience of eating a hamburger the same as the taste of the hamburger? How does the material brain tell the material brain how the material brain should experience a Hamburger with extra pickles?

a reply to: neoholographic

Wasn't this a thread just recently or am i mistaken , perhaps something similar . As for food . Bacon , crisp but not rock hard , preferably with runny egg embedded . Burn onion , to the point of being charcoal . I think the taste buds take charge on this one . Perhaps its how you were raised .

a reply to: neoholographic

Luckily for us we are not material brains, as if we were floating in jars. We have taste buds, noses, skin, a heart, eyes, hands, all of witch are utilized in eating a burger. I could touch a burger to a brain and it wouldn't taste anything. I could shine a red light on a material brain and it wouldn't know red.

Not once were you interacting with brains. The material brain cannot know anything. Only bodies can, as your observations show.

a reply to: hutch622

Different things.

One was more Scientific and was about the mechanism that the material brain uses to tell the material brain it wants the material brain to recall a specific memory. There was no answer.

This is more about qualia and mental states.

If I lay on a pillow and say it's hard and someone else lays on the same pillow and says it's soft does this have any objective meaning? When she says, the pillow feels soft, how does the material brain know what she means?

It doesn't. You condition your brain to react differently to different stimuli. People think they have an emotion that causes them to "like" something, when in reality it's just your brain having been programmed to associate that particular thing with YES rather than NO.

You could condition your brain to hate your favorite color if you want. Not sure why you would, though.

a reply to: OhOkYeah

How will your brain know you hate your favorite color? What does your favorite color mean to your material brain?

a reply to: neoholographic

I am not sure i am getting this , my brain is me so to speak . Its/my preferences are already set . No functioning kidneys , dialysis . No heart , build an artificial one or transplant . No brain your a hunk of meat . My brain (and it finds itself a little disconcerted that i am discussing it ) wonders why someone asks about how you know what your favourite colour is . For instance . I like a little curry but could not eat it forever , however someone who was brought up on it most likely will find my meals quite bland .Perhaps its is your upbringing or maybe even genetics .Why do my kids hate asparagus yet i love it .The brain is what it is . I once asked my psychiatrist if they had worked the brain out yet . His answer was that the more they knew the less they knew . And he was /is a very well respected member of his profession .

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: OhOkYeah

How will your brain know you hate your favorite color? What does your favorite color mean to your material brain?

It doesn't "hate" the color

There are no emotions. Emotions are a philosophical construct that people use to make themselves feel special in comparison to animals.

A lot of it has to do with associations and chemical reactions. If I react (chemically) in a positive way when I eat Spam, then my neural circuitry associated with that experience will be strengthened, and the memory of it will be imprinted. Over time, and with repeated Spam sandwiches, the neural wiring will be further strengthened each time. Our brains continuously undergo this rewiring/reinforcing process.

This process has been witnessed many times. It's a physical process. Memristor (analog) technology has been recently shown to very closely mimic this functionality (including fast memory recall) and will increasingly be used to mimic brain functioning in future computers.

What I think you're getting at, neoholographic, is the sentient qualities that arise from experiencing sensory information. Sentience is about the subjective "feelings" we associate with an experience, and that is uniquely all your own. There is nothing objective about our "feelings". I happen to hate oysters on the half shell, whereas many people I know would die for them. Put a plate of them in front of me and all I see is guts and goo.

I like blue, as I've had many positive experiences in my life associated with that color. However, the "feeling" I have when seeing the color blue is uniquely my own, and is likely not the same as the "feeling" you would have by seeing the very same color. We may both call it "blue", and yet have very different "feelings" about it. And as far as I know, it's basically about the things our unique life experiences have associated with it. No magic there.

Throughout life we've gone about labeling/cataloging everything we experience and sorting it all out through associations. And whatever "quality" our life's experiences has brought to us is premised upon a strictly personal, subjective basis. One of the dilemmas in science is that the observer is incapable of objectifying the observed when the observer and the observed are one and the same. We, and noone else, own our feelings. Noone else will ever know what it is to be neoholographic.

I doubt that added anything worthwhile to the discussion, but I took a shot...

Merry Christmas!

You are confusing consciousness. the brain, and the physical world.
Consciousness is not located in the brain.
The material world is a delusion.
The truth will set you free.
Questions?
Answers?
; )
a reply to: neoholographic

a reply to: netbound

I doubt that added anything worthwhile to the discussion, but I took a shot...

in my opinion, you answered the op perfectly.

a reply to: netbound

First, what did you mean by "no magic there?" What magic are you talking about and who said anything about magic? That's kind of a meaningless line unless you can point to where I talked about magic.

You then said:

A lot of it has to do with associations and chemical reactions. If I react (chemically) in a positive way when I eat Spam, then my neural circuitry associated with that experience will be strengthened, and the memory of it will be imprinted.

Who is I? You said when I react and then you said chemically. How do you react chemically? I would like to see the evidence of this. How does the chemicals or I, whatever I is, react in a positive way when you eat spam? How does I or the chemicals know your eating spam? How does I or the chemicals know what spam tastes like to you? Who are you? The I, the chemicals, exactly what is it that knows how you feel about spam or how you think spam taste?

First of all, neoholographic, I don’t claim to have all the answers here. I was just taking a shot at it, based on my limited knowledge of the subject. The mind/brain relationship, and the whole subject of human consciousness and self-awareness, has been hotly debated by philosophers and scientists for a very, very long time, and to my knowledge there has yet to be a consensus on it. It’s workings are subtle and elusive and quite often defy adequate description. To this day it remains one of the greatest mysteries of science and philosophy.

However, in the last 30-40 years a lot of progress has been made on understanding at least the mechanics of brain functioning. Neuroscience, brainwave research and information theory have also been making some headway into areas relating to the thought process, memory storage and retrieval, and the generation of thought streams. Of course, all these things are based upon the observation of physical interactions, behavior and relationships taking place on the molecular and atomic level. Science can only address the issue if there’s some tangible/material evidence to support it. If there’s some yet to be discovered force exerting an influence, then current science cannot address it. In which case, and for now, it would fall under the umbrella of philosophy or metaphysics.

There’s certainly a lot left to be understood. Our current knowledge is quite limited and only scratches the surface. I guess that’s why we call it a mystery. Personally, I find it all quite surreal and beyond my scope. I’m not so sure that we can quantify everything in the universe, as most scientists would like. To me, there’s a certain arrogance to that notion. At the same time, I have a “feeling” that if we were capable of understanding a deeper reality, it might be more simplistic than we had imagined.

Now, I’ll address your reply to my post:

1) “No magic there” was just a figure of speech. Kind of a meaningless filler that came spewing out of my twisted brain. Don’t bother reading anything into it, and PLEASE don’t think I was implying anything regarding you or your message. Let’s call it a brain fart.

2) When I referred to “I”, it was in reference to “me”, netbound. The unique individual making the statement, as opposed to “you”, neoholographic, the unique individual who created this thread and encouraged a response. If you think you have a deeper understanding than the rest, then there’s no point in opening the thread to begin with. Also, don’t patronize me. If you can’t understand the intended meaning of the statement, then it’s your problem, not mine. You’re sounding sophomoric in your rhetoric. All I can suggest is a high school level chemistry course if you seek a greater understanding of the processes involved.

My participation in this thread ends here. I’ll waste my time elsewhere...

a reply to: netbound

Most of your post was basically saying, I don't know. You then ended with this:

2) When I referred to “I”, it was in reference to “me”, netbound. The unique individual making the statement, as opposed to “you”, neoholographic, the unique individual who created this thread and encouraged a response. If you think you have a deeper understanding than the rest, then there’s no point in opening the thread to begin with. Also, don’t patronize me. If you can’t understand the intended meaning of the statement, then it’s your problem, not mine. You’re sounding sophomoric in your rhetoric. All I can suggest is a high school level chemistry course if you seek a greater understanding of the processes involved.

This is just gobbledy gook.

You're the one who talked about IF I REACT CHEMICALLY.

I simply asked you what does this mean. How do you react chemically? Whose reacting the chemicals or I? What is I? Is "I" the chemicals?

You said, DON'T PATRONIZE ME????????

I'm just asking about your claim that IF I CHEMICALLY REACT. It didn't make any sense but I was willing to look over the evidence and listen to your answers that support YOUR CLAIM.

a reply to: neoholographic

Why is that? What is my cousins experience that makes him like it vs, my cousins experience that makes him not like it? How does the material brain know this?

For this, and any other instance, you'll have to trace the causes all the way to the Big Bang. The beginning of the universe.

For instance, I absolutely hate the smell of popcorn in the movie theater, but love it at home. The reasons for this can only be found in my genes, my physical and mental conditioning, external and internal environment and the influence of past experiences, all the way from birth, my parents to the beginning of mankind and time itself. All factors which nobody has any control over and no capacity to perceive or be aware of.

originally posted by: neoholographic
I was at a cookout on Memorial Day with family and I asked my 6 year old Nephew what was his favorite color. He said red. I asked a couple of the other kids there and I got red, blue, green and 2 yellows. I asked them why these are their favorite colors and they really couldn't explain it but it was their subjective experience.

How does the brain How a person experiences red? How does the brain know this is someones favorite color? How does the brain decide this is your favorite color?

I then watched as my cousins fixed their food. One of my cousins loves potato salad while my other cousin doesn't like it and didn't want any on his plate. Why is that? What is my cousins experience that makes him like it vs, my cousins experience that makes him not like it? How does the material brain know this? What does potato salad taste like? When my cousin eats potato salad does it taste like what I think potato salad taste like?

When you go to Subway, why does the same sandwich sometimes taste like the greatest sandwich in the world and then you get the same sandwich a month later and it's just okay? How does the material brain know this?

What does it mean to say something taste like hamburger? Is the experience of eating a hamburger the same as the taste of the hamburger? How does the material brain tell the material brain how the material brain should experience a Hamburger with extra pickles?

We really don't know if our experiences match exactly, that is eating a hamburger with extra pickles (my way of doing it) matches your material experience, but obviously it is a subjective pleasurable experience that many may share.

a reply to: InTheLight

Exactly and some Scientist are talking about a subjective universe for this very reason. Consciousness is non computable.

When you eat a Whopper, there's no way to describe in the context of materialism how a Whopper tastes to you or me. That experience is subjective and what's reality outside of subjective experience? Is there a reality outside of subjective experience?

In his paper, "Non-computability of Consciousness," Daegene Song proves human consciousness cannot be computed. Song arrived at his conclusion through quantum computer research in which he showed there is a unique mechanism in human consciousness that no computing device can simulate.

Song's work also shows consciousness is not like other physical systems like neurons, atoms or galaxies. "If consciousness cannot be represented in the same way all other physical systems are represented, it may not be something that arises out of a physical system like the brain," said Song. "The brain and consciousness are linked together, but the brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness is something altogether different and separate. The math doesn't lie."

www.prnewswire.com...



You have the recent discovery where the entropy of entanglement in 2 dimensions corresponds to the description of gravity in 3 dimensions. This would be a huge step that would essentially show the universe is a holographic and 3 dimension volume or what we think is "objective reality" doesn't exist. It's just a projection of information on a 2 dimensional surface.

a reply to: neoholographic

I simply asked you what does this mean. How do you react chemically? Whose reacting the chemicals or I? What is I? Is "I" the chemicals?

if you really want to get technical, then yes, "I" is chemicals. "You" is chemicals. remove or add chemicals and "you" changes to reflect that. thats not to say that we are worth less because our identity is comprised of accumulative chemicular interactions, but that we shouldnt shirk scientific understanding because it reveals uncomfortable truths that clash with romantic idealizations we have about ourselves.

a reply to: neoholographic

So, we are back to square one...what is reality to you, what is reality to me? Can perception (experience) be quantified? It certainly can be expressed intellectually and you and I can certainly agree that that burger with extra pickles is delicious, but another person may find it distasteful.