UK EU Referendum, IN or OUT?

I wish I was more concerned , but I'm not. Either way I doubt my life would be effected too much.
I hope it won't effect my parents ability to spend the rest of their retirement living in Spain. They both worked hard to get a very small property so they didn't have to endure the British winters and they enjoy it out there so it would be sad if that were to be effected. I don't know enough about the pros and cons as most is just propaganda from one side or the other.

I notice while all this talk of giving up sovereignty to the EU goes on.The upcoming TTIP trade deal seems to go under the radar which is a far bigger threat to our national sovereignty than the EU. Sorry I can't contribute a more stimulating response.

a reply to: ukmicky1980


I will vote for out for a number of different reasons:

I hate EU beaucracy which has destroyed or radically altered UK businesses, especially our smaller businesses. Too much dictated by people who have no idea of what Briton is about or its people. I suspect without the unwanted beaucracy our businesses would be more efficient and profitable thereby expanding.

The Fear-mongers would say Ooh business will go to Europe, a huge proportion of our trade goes to America and not Europe, but importantly our high-street is changing radically with nearly everyone buying on the internet goods that come from all over the world - so why stay in the EU? People from the EU will still buy British goods. Also the handouts we get back from the EU would cost us less if given by our own government direct from the tax payer, rather than from borrowed money from the bankers to and fro the EU.

Our manufacturers and large companies with factories here, who came in order to get a foothold into Europe, will simply find ways of getting round EU tariffs. The cost of relocation is not cheap today plus having to train another workforce or pay the expenses of those who will move abroad all adds up; however we are already in the corporate dictator's hands and if they are in the UK manufacturing they could have moved into another EU country any time earlier but chose not to, so something is keeping them here and I expect its not paying their due taxes - money speaks louder than anything. Without the cost of the EU bleeding us we could invest in factories and create new manufacturing which, if it costs less means we could undercut or sell quality goods - markets within markets etc.

I don't worry about things like foreign holidays because you simply take your passport and go through border control - good idea that. EU countries are crying out for british holiday-makers so are they suddenly going to take a loss of earnings, don't be daft? They may impose extra duties, but these would be imposed under another name sooner or later in this financial climate of debt anyway.

Brits who work abroad can probability apply for EU Statesmanship/permits, they wouldn't be working there if they were useless employees and most likely are hard-working well qualified people whom that EU country would not wish to loose. Currently the world, his wife and dependants and known criminals can get into Britain today so why shouldn't working Brits be able to return when they wish? With a government just dealing with this country I am sure legislation could be passed for ex-pats to re-enter. Our government would not loose the ability to legislate for whatever it needs.

Just the cost alone of being in the EU should be telling people we should be out because it costs us more than we get out of it plus add the problems of our borders and you get the real picture of what EU membership means. Plus I see a benefit from less politicians in two countries rather than just 1 lot here, albeit that will change in 2017. Then we will be totally governed by people miles away from this country, who have no liking for us or expertise about our country's needs or its peoples - everyone happy with that - strangers will be deciding what tax we pay and what budgets we are allowed and who would we complain to - Oh yes! a nice trip to the continent which most of us could not afford - government then will be faceless just as we would be to them.

Without the input of British money, the EU will be strapped for cash and could well have to reshape itself. There is terrific corruption and vested interest, and it would be good even if we get rid of just some of the leaches into the british tax payers budget. Our farmers would probably be happier without seeing so much benefit going to French and foreign farmers whilst ours exist on peanuts.

We should strengthen ties to our commonwealth country's tbh.

a reply to: ukmicky1980

For me, In every time. Although i will qualify that - i would vote to remain in the EU but i would never vote to join the Euro. Further than this, our EU membership should be in terms of economics and trade, with social / cultural thrown in too. I see no need for further political integration unless some "special" circumstances were to occur (major global war, global catastrophe, etc).

A lot of the guff written by the UK media about EU involvement in our lives is pure rubbish when you get right down to it. But there are aspects that we certainly need to abandon, others we need to re draw, etc.

Overall though, the EU is very good for Britain wheras leaving the EU may be good for Britain but may not. At a time when economies are struglling globally, is that a chance we can afford to take?

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: ukmicky1980

Overall though, the EU is very good for Britain wheras leaving the EU may be good for Britain but may not. At a time when economies are struglling globally, is that a chance we can afford to take?

Hmmn... What of the economies really struggling within the EU?

Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal to name but a few...

a reply to: ukmicky1980

A few points I'd like to bring in to help you make up your mind:

1. Britain wanted to be part of Europe ever since its GDP dropped after the war. It were the French (De Gaulle) whom vetoed Britain out, twice I believe. So, the Brits wanted IN, they were not lured into a deal by Germans or French.
   
2. Their main reason was simple: the British GDP steadily dropped after the war and the Brits saw no way to turn that around on their own. GDP was roughly 10 percent SMALLER than the EU average in 1973 (when the Brits finally were ALLOWED to join, invited by French prime minister Pompidou). After that the British GDP stablized and remained stable. Brits did fairly well, not below average.
   
3. Try to see it from the continental viewpoint for once. YOU wanted in. After lot's of hesitation we let you guys in, welcomed you, and ever since you've been complaining and demanding special rights. Where we, on the continent, embraced the Euro, you had to keep your pound. Where we drove right, you drove left. When I go to Germany, Danmark, Belgium .. any European country - I never even have to show my passport. But when I go to the UK - I suddenly must. Man, I can't even take my dog with me when I go on a holiday to Britain. All in all, you've been profiting - whilst whining and complaining. I say: it's time to return the favour. Abolish the pound, start driving on the proper side of the road and stop whining.
   
4. And count your blessings for once: English became the 'de facto' European language, one can get a pint of British ale in many pubs / bars in Europe and the BBC is broadcasted everywhere in Europe. That's about as much as you can expect. England is seen as a major player in the EU. You thrive because you are part of the Union.
   

The Brits have HUUUGE egos. But don't let that get in the way of realism, please.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

You fall short based on 1 simple thing.

We wanted in FOR TRADE not politics, TRADE only. Thats what was sold to us. We wanted part of the economic zone. No one wanted to be part of a bureaucratic nightmare that is Brussels and another layer of useless government.

And seriously # the French and De Gaulle the ungrateful bastards. We were not the ones that surrendered in WW2. We sacrificed our economy to save your European arses·

And seriously # the Euro too. How many country’s is it royally screwing up right now?

I think I would rather be out. I agree that our businesses would be far better without EU democracy. We could rebuild our industrial and manufacturing industries once out with the money we currently imput to the EU . Guess I'm with Shiloh7 on this one.

OUT!

Will save the UK a fortune on so many levels not just membership fee's for this pompous club.
Regarding business's suffering, if the EU did impose higher duties for UK exports, the the UK just needs to reciprocate with higher duties to EU companies selling into UK. UK exports less to EU than the EU sells to us, we are a more significant customer to the EU than they are to us!.
To say we cant negotiate our own trade deals is stupidity by pro EU.

a reply to: crazyewok

You will always find a ghost of the past to serve your needs. WWII ended over 70 years ago...

Anyway, nothing was 'sold' to you. The Brits wanted in. And it was MUCH more than a Trade Union - even then. I quote from the pages of the very British Broadcasting Company: "Britain will be given four votes within the council, which proposes policies on issues ranging from the environment to public health. Membership applications by the UK to join the EEC were refused in 1963 and 1967 because the French President of the time Charles de Gaulle doubted the UK's political will. It is understood, however, his real fear was that English would suddenly become the common language of the community. "

Which it did, by the way.

And the Euro did not mess up countries. What is messed up is our attitude towards the EU: if we profit from it we say we would have had the same profit - or better - without the EU. If be suffer from it, we say we never would have suffered as bad had we not joined the EU. In the meantime, the Brits did quite good in Europe - and though we will never know it, of course, I bet that the UK would have been worse off than Greece by now, had it not been for the EU. I love the UK, BTW, but Brits should stop living on dreams. The British Empire is long dead, long live the EU!

a reply to: ukmicky1980

Hi micky, thanks for starting the EU referendum thread, I was hoping someone else would as I was if nobody else did.
This is such an important issue for all of us though that I feel the graveyard which is the 'off-topic' Regional Politics does not do the topic justice. If it gets moved to the 'Teapot icon' Political Issues forum it will appear in the 'recent posts' list and will get the coverage it deserves.

I have many opinions about the UK's membership of the EU but I won't waste any more time typing about it in this 'off topic' forum which many people do not even see. I actually found this by accident in 'New' topics, but two days from now it won't even show there.

It is a massively important issue for the UK and I hope your thread gets the coverage it deserves in an 'on topic' political forum. Until such time though I guess you can be happy that I'm not gonna be replying like a mad one in your thread haha.

a reply to: grainofsand

I think, although dont quote me on this, that Skeptic Overlord mention a dedicated UK Politics forum which would be set up after the server migration which was completed yesterday.

a reply to: ukmicky1980

Yes I've read that as well, and hopefully it will be created soon as we do have a unique and civilised style of debate us UK members.
I would get 'on topic' involved in your thread if it was in a UK forum which could be found in 'recent' or any other similar international political forum. No offence to you picking the Regional politics forum, but I'm not wasting my time posting here 'on topic' because a massive percentage of ATS visitors just won't see it.
The issue is massively important for 60 odd million people.

*Edit*
The graveyard of 'regional politics' is not worthy of a UK in or out referendum topic.
I would advocate that you ask the mods to move it, they are mostly really friendly normal people like us as far as I've found from experience.
If not though, I wish you well with your thread so many folk just will not see.

a reply to: Jonjonj

British people worked in europe long before we joined the union , British construction trades were highly sought after in Europe , I was one .

Undecided. I work in immigration; a large number of my clients are from the EEA so I'm torn between voting for something I know is 100% going to hurt my business but may be right for the country or voting to stay in for purely selfish reasons. I want out purely because it's undemocratic and on principle we shouldn't accept something we had no say in; it sends a worrying message to those in power that it's ok for them to act outside of their remit at will. They need a leash on them and I see no other way to give them the pimpslap they so direly need.

On the other hand; I also don't believe there's any legal way out anyway.

originally posted by: ukmicky1980
Should the UK Remain a member of the European Union? YES or No?
I’m proud to be British, I don’t want to become part of a European ‘superstate’ I don’t want my country have laws and rules imposed on it from Brussels, I’m all for countries working together and having sensible, well reasoned laws and rules, but what business does an Italian/German/French etc… MEP in brussels have dicating what laws/rules I must abide by in Britain?

Many of those MEPs are British, and many of the EU regulations and initiatives that we tend to complain about the most were initiated and suggested by British MEPs and commissioners in Brussels.

The European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights that we want to abolish and replace with a Bill of Rights (without the word "Human" in it) were also suggested, initiated and drafted by British lawyers under Winston Churchill's regime.

It is a bit ironic that we first impose a number of things that we don't like on ourselves and our neighbours, then want to withdraw. Who would be in a better position to improve those things that we originated?

Out.
Immigration needs to be reduced.
Business needs to be hampered with less red tape.
We need to enact laws to look after ourselves, rather than others. (Things like TTIP, fishing and aricultural policy).
We need to trade more with Commonwealth countries with whom we have stronger ties.
We can spend the 8 billion odd quid membership fee far better on our own country.

Lots of other reasons too, but the above are good for a start.

originally posted by: ukmicky1980
Also, forgot to add to the above,

If Britain does vote to leave, and we cant agree favourable trade terms, and exports to the EU end up costing more, what is Britains back up plan?

Another issue i know is going to get brought up in this thread is the immigration issue, while I agree that non contributing immigrants shouldnt be drawing off our system, immigrants that have came and are working and contributing to the economy should be allowed to stay, and im in favour of an immigration system similat to Australia, based on skills and the need for that skill.

Mick

No need for the Australian system (which was inspired by the old British system) for EU immigrants. The requirement to have a job offer, be self supporting or at least find a job within six months is enshrined in the EU treaty, only that the UK (and France, I might add) doesn't enforce it, even though it is described quite well on the UKBA website.

originally posted by: ukmicky1980

originally posted by: Jonjonj


The second reason is for the protection of the more than 2 million British people who are working in Europe, oh what? We forgot that there are more than 2 million Brits in Europe? What shall we do with them once they are FORCED to come back home?

Would the Brits affected by this not just have to apply for a non-EU work permit, much like, say, a Nigerian has to to work in the UK?

They wouldnt neccessarily have to leave surely? or would they? i honestly dont know.

If it would work the same as with, say, Nigerians in the UK, they would have to leave and apply from the outside (e.g. the UK, where they would probably collect benefits in the mean time).

originally posted by: DAZ21
a reply to: Jonjonj

Why would it be hard to visit his family? You can go to south America freely if you want too, and we aren't in a union with them. It's rubbish...Europe won't stop Brits from holidaying or travelling around Europe.

Freedom of movement only affects those who want to live in a European country. If he wants to work in that European country, then he can get a work permit....

Why would that be necessary? The EU treaty already provides an implicit work permit for all EU citizens who can support themselves.