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Ayn Rand's Influence on the 21st Century

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posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:06 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

No, I am not claiming that. I am trying to figure out why people don't see the problems in our nation, and what we need to do to fix it.

Argue all you want!!! I won't change my mind.


edit on 6/1/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:12 PM
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a reply to: Logarock


And by the way, why are you Marxist so dam bossy and condescending?

You mean, like

how...why...you "Christians" are 'so damn bossy and condescending'? News: Marxism was equivalent to Jesus' teachings.

So - put that in your back pocket....and think yourself to sleep on that one tonight.



posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:18 PM
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I think people are flipping out because of the mass hysteria from the November elections last year.

I hear the knees shattering.

I see the fingernails bitten off.

I see Ayn Rand being used as a blame scapegoat for things she was observing not creating.

Hundreds of tangents and red herrings all over the place.

I see many social and economic failures caused by the highly educated Left Wing experts in charge.

I see many out of touch people preaching unrealistic goals.

Roaring DaaHaHaHa




posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:26 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock


And by the way, why are you Marxist so dam bossy and condescending?

You mean, like

how...why...you "Christians" are 'so damn bossy and condescending'? News: Marxism was equivalent to Jesus' teachings.

So - put that in your back pocket....and think yourself to sleep on that one tonight.



Hay believe it or not I have looked into that in depth.....Gods idea of social justice.....and yes some of the ways God looks at things would make a capitalists ass and head hurt.



posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:30 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock


And by the way, why are you Marxist so dam bossy and condescending?

You mean, like

how...why...you "Christians" are 'so damn bossy and condescending'? News: Marxism was equivalent to Jesus' teachings.

So - put that in your back pocket....and think yourself to sleep on that one tonight.


I've been very plain with you:

Marx is force. Jesus was not force. The two are not equal at that point.

You are free to engage in a Marxist commune all you want. More power to you. In a perfect, Christian society, it would look very much like that EXCEPT there would be private property that would be freely shared. Marx also had no private property which is something else he and Christ would have differed on.

But where you and I sharply disagree is that you seem to think that the government is the vehicle to implement this quasi-Christian Utopian ideal, by force.



posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:33 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


Marx is force. Jesus was not force. The two are not equal at that point.

mmm....No. Marx is not 'force.'

Marx's philosophy was based on people WILLINGLY sharing.
If you don't get that, I'm sorry......
but, the two are exactly equal.

I'm going to bed now - you all have a great night...and THANKS for your participation!

edit on 6/1/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:43 PM
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Marx never took into account the Human neurological, psychiatric and psychological differences.

Those change constantly and never equalize.



posted on Jun, 1 2015 @ 10:44 PM
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a reply to: Logarock


yes some of the ways God looks at things would make a capitalists ass and head hurt.

Thank you.

Good night, Logarock.
I'll think of you while I'm falling asleep.



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 12:00 AM
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There is a great Ayn Rand documentary on Netflix...

It is worth watching...



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 08:49 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko


In a perfect, Christian society, it would look very much like that EXCEPT there would be private property that would be freely shared.


Why is it that hasn't ever happened? That dad-blasted Satan again? :-)

Serious question Ketsuko - how and where does Jesus explain about private property? Also, if it's private property - how does the freely sharing part work?

Was just scootering around the internet looking for info and all I find are opinion pieces and blogs


edit on 6/2/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: I imagine the real answer is Commies - but, same difference I suppose



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 08:57 AM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
What do you think of her and the movement that lauds her?


Of her -
- Good author.
- Understandably strong views against communism.
- Her sex fantasies are, IMHO, twisted. But to each their own.
(the dirt filled and violent rape fantasies in the Fountainhead were disturbing to me)

Of her philosophy of Objectivism -
- Some common sense elements.
- A survivalist type mentality.
- Reality based and not hope based. I agree that hope is a useless emotion.
- Live and let live. Pursue your highest potential without stepping on others.

Of the movement that lauds her -
- Small and inconsequential.



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 09:03 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan


I agree that hope is a useless emotion.


Flyers - really?!

Honestly - what an interesting idea for an entire thread

I agree that Ms Rand didn't believe in hope. I haven't read her books so I'm at a disadvantage in this discussion - but I have a sense she was resigned to certain things in life - and then retired back into her mind and a life of complete fantasy

Maybe fantasy is just hope for the hopeless. The reality part I get - even the acceptance of dark reality. Hopelessness is not something I see in you

Interesting

ETA: I wasn't actually thinking about the sex/romance parts when it comes to fantasy - there's plenty more fantasy involved in much of what she says
edit on 6/2/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 09:19 AM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs



mmm....No. Marx is not 'force.'


Marx had a lovely idea. So did Jesus

Funny how force ruins a lovely idea - no matter where it comes from

Marx was just a guy. I can see there's going to be a little extra gravitas that comes with being the actual son of God - though I think we should wait on all the tests to come back from the lab before we commit to that one

:-)


edit on 6/2/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
Flyers - really?!

Really.

I've found hope to be useless. A waste of energy. Always disappointing. Sometimes even maddening. It's better to deal with reality then false future dreams that will never come true.

You mentioned making a thread about hope. Have at it.



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis

For the same reason the perfect communist society never happens.

Human nature is what it is.

You can get close in small communities where everyone knows each other. My cousin has a group of folks out in the country who are close to it.

But what would we know? We're all a bunch of ig'nant racist redneck bigots out clinging to our guns and religion ... likely homophobic ... beat our wives ... stupid too.




posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan


I've found hope to be useless. A waste of energy. Always disappointing. Sometimes even maddening. It's better to deal with reality then false future dreams that will never come true.

That actually makes me want to say a little prayer :-)

You know, I get it. It is maddening - all of it. Trying to achieve any kind of balance in your head and still function in a world that is nothing if not real. I think hope is what makes a space in our heads and allows for possibility - and progress

In an attempt to wrangle this back in and stay on topic - this is what I think miss Ayn was doing all along. For herself - a kind of victim. For her father - a victim. She does seem to have some daddy issues, but then - who doesn't? :-)

She made a path for progress by eliminating - through fantasy - all those who stood in her way


You mentioned making a thread about hope. Have at it.

I gotta learn to keep my mouth shut :-)

We'll see Flyers - not my bestest thing. It's good that ATS doesn't make it a requirement - what a dilemma...



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko


Human nature is what it is.

Does Jesus allow for human nature? If it's all only about human nature - then, Jesus and Marx don't look so different on paper

The Revolution was bound to happen - same as the Inquisition. Human nature


But what would we know? We're all a bunch of ig'nant racist redneck bigots out clinging to our guns and religion ... likely homophobic ... beat our wives ... stupid too.

Funny :-) Who knew you all would even pick up on that?

I know that those perceptions create a big emotional/psychological boo boo on you guys' brains - not that different from all the anti-progressive ranting... Oh, the many crimes you do accuse us of. So much ow

Human nature...absolutely

Gonna answer my real question ketsuko? :-) No, I didn't forget

What did the big guy actually say about private property - and the sharing thereof?


edit on 6/2/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 12:43 PM
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a reply to: coastlinekid


There is a great Ayn Rand documentary on Netflix...

It is worth watching...

Thank you.
Just finished watching it.

I need to mull it over, but I agree that "Crony Capitalism" is a bad thing; so is Lobbying, and I do believe that Government is corrupt and inefficient. I've always thought that.

Like I said, there are things she says that I agree with - but when Capitalist Giants are BUYING the laws, it serves only the Capitalist Giants. And they are NEITHER benevolent NOR altruistic. They are 'moochers' and 'looters' of the American common people. And that is NOT okay.

I had Ron Paul signs in my yard when he was running.
Thanks again for contributing that resource.

And I'll add this:
FOREIGN AID is one of our big problems. We need to be "selfish" for Americans, I guess - and WHAT the HELL is up with sending billions of dollars to OTHER COUNTRIES???!!!! I'm an isolationist, for sure. But I'm a 'collectivist isolationist'. There are nearly 310 MILLION people here in America, and half of them NEED help, and even more are struggling - just staying afloat. Treading water.

The film discussed the Founding Fathers - how they intended for people to come and 'serve' in Congress on a short-term basis, and then return to their businesses/livelihoods. CAREER politicans are, I think, what has caused all of this.

Stop foreign aid. Stop military spending. Stop lobbying and 'Corporations are People'. Look to our own instead. When we have it all straightened out, then, just maybe, we can reconsider being involved in other countries' woes and plights! That's not benevolence OR altruism. It's insane. It's bribery, and it's sickening. Especially in light of how the world sneers at us, yet asks for money. Seriously, dump them all, until our own citizens are comfortable and cared for.

America is not beholden to other countries - this country is beholden to HER OWN CITIZENS first.



edit on 6/2/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


You can get close in small communities where everyone knows each other.

Yes, and btw, there ARE lots of communes going on, right now.
Lots. Do a search for coops and communes, and you'll see that they are not rare at all.



posted on Jun, 2 2015 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Interesting assessment. I'd sort-of disagree, because I can see how that impression is given, but I don't think that is the actual message.

Take Atlas Shrugged, for instance. A great book, if you take a red pencil to it and shorten it by about two thirds. She does like to waffle on at time.

You could see this as a story about evil greedy businessmen making everyone suffer to prove a point of how powerful they are, painting the poor as parasites to be loathed and ridiculed.

It isn't. It's a warning. It paints socialism at its worst, not to say that socialism is evil, but to point out how socialism at its best is only ever a penstroke away from becoming its worst. Atlas Shrugged is about a society losing sight of the fact that you can only have consumption when you have production, and that production needs freedom to thrive. Freedom to innovate, freedom to seek its own fortune. Production is what happens when somebody takes a risk and ends up succeeding - and people will only take that risk if they feel they will be rewarded at the end.

If you read the book, you'll notice how many of the key producers are risk-takers, putting their own resources on the table when they see the potential for reward. Reardon offering up a very lenient installment plan to get his metal out into the railways, building the bridge, all calculated risks. Ellis whatsisface (? forget the name, actually) taking the risk with his novel oil extraction techniques. Dagny Taggart, taking risks at every turn to keep the trains moving. More importantly, they all take personal responsibility for themselves and their decisions.

Atlas Shrugged is about consumers losing sight of the fact that risk taking is a result of reward, that production is the result of risk taking, and that our standard of living is a result of production. In the book, the standard of living becomes an entitlement, something that the producers must provide, reward is irrelevant - in fact, reward becomes a "bad thing", because the mindset twists the idea that "you shouldn't be rewarded for something you had to do anyway". People also lose sight of personal responsibility, placing the responsibility on the shoulders of the producers (via the government) as it becomes their duty to provide for the people.

The whole point of "going Galt" was to show what would happen without those risk-takers, without the people who would or could take personal responsibility. You end up with dystopia.

Atlas Shrugged, and Ayn Rand's entire philosophy in the book, could be summarised with the following short (true life) story.

My almost-teenaged daughter grew to believe that I, as parent, was obliged to pick up her dirty socks and make sure they get washed. So, I stopped picking them up, until she ran out of socks. Now, she's learned to put her own dirty socks in the washing basket. She appreciates that I will wash them as long as she puts them in the basket, but she also appreciates that is my choice - I could just as easily add "loading the washing machine" to her list of chores. My reward for doing her washing is knowing that I don't have to play the "dirty sock hunt" game. If she takes away that reward (by not doing that chore) there's no reason left for me to do her washing for her.

In other words, the entire philosophy of Ayn Rand is about... err... dirty socks?




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