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True Authorship of The Old Testament?

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posted on May, 26 2015 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy




There were not 70 different writers, they were translators.


Po-tay-toes...po-tah-toes.

If you don't there were arguments between the translators and political agendas to be met in order to suite the Ptolemaic edicts, you are sorely naive!



How old is Judaism as a religion?

What is the difference in Egyptian mythology (of the Ptolomeic dynasty) and Judaism?

Did you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls has the Book of Isaiah written word for word what is in the Tanahk and the Christian Bible?

Word for word. That's pretty good transmission, considering the Book of Isaiah is older than Ptolemy.

Cleopatra was in the Ptolemy dynasty, I don't think she was Jewish and she certainly didn't control the Jews through religion. In fact, the Romans didn't either. They only subjugated people politically, but not religiously.

The several Cleopatras


During this period a friendly attitude was displayed toward the Jews, and the priest *Onias IV , who fled to Egypt, was sympathetically received there.


Were they controlling or were they friendly?




posted on May, 26 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: WarminIndy



Did you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls has the Book of Isaiah written word for word what is in the Tanahk and the Christian Bible?


The Dead Sea Scrolls aren't older than 300 BC, when the Septuagint was compiled.



What is the difference in Egyptian mythology (of the Ptolomeic dynasty) and Judaism?


Ooh. That's another thread, I think. But there are a great number of Egyptian influences in the Old Testament. The 10 Commandments are nearly exactly lifted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and many of the Psalms are from ancient(er) Pyramid texts.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: JUhrman
Obviously they are not hoaxes to control people through fear, but very important cultural texts from which all the different cultures worldwide have structured themselves.


Like I said before, the "obviously they are not hoaxes to control people through fear" can be debated, for sure. The fear comes in where punishments are everything from being stoned to death for (what I consider) exercising free will to being burned in eternity for denying the worship or existence of the god(s) that the state tells you must be worshipped. There is historical proof throughout many different cultures that trickery was used in order to make the masses believe that "their god(s)" were all-powerful beings. Trickery used as proof that the god(s) exist, therefore validating the threat of a God-given edict of laws and punishments.

Like I said, we'll agree to disagree.

Best Regards.
edit on 26-5-2015 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 12:52 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy
Did you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls has the Book of Isaiah written word for word what is in the Tanahk and the Christian Bible?


Did you know that there is no "the Christian Bible?" There are many translations and editions and versions, so you'll have to specify which of these Christian bibles you are referencing.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 02:45 PM
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originally posted by: spiritualKat33
a reply to: bartholomeo

I don't think it has any significance to know the when, the where and the whom if it is a fictional rendering of fictional characters and there is nothing broad about my feelings on religion. I have no esteem for any religion of any kind for the simple reason I was not affiliated with any of them when I entered this body I possess at the moment. Religion is and always has been an affliction of monumental portions induced by various cultures. So, tell me why it matters when and where and whom, your answer to those questions are pointless since it happened so many places, written by so many different people, at so many different times.


It matters because a lot of people are in psychological bondage due to the writings in that book, and in order to free their minds they need to know the answer to those questions.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 02:49 PM
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originally posted by: payta
The hittities, supposedly defeated by the hebrews, never managed to established themseves so deep in the levant, they barely made it to Qadesh. By 1000BC, the empire had been lost long ago, and there's no trace of them is the region for about 200 years. The neohittites, contemporaries to the reign of Judah and Israel were further up north, in northern Syria.
The amorrites, they ruled the babylonian empire until around 1300-1200bc. And babylon never had territorial control of the canaan. There's no trace of ammorrites in the Levant either. They were a group of people who settled in the lower mesopotamia region mainly


I'm glad you mentioned this because this is exactly what archeological historians have found out. That the archeological evidence doesn't support the bible stories. Thanks for the link, I never read that book, but I'll order it.
We still need to find out the when, how, by whom so we can tie the loose ends.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: bartholomeo
I have to totally agree with you, and what's worse are biblical archeologists. At the moment, especially Israeli biblical archeologists, they are trying very, very hard to prove their historical accuracy. At this time they are clutching at any straw that comes along. Some of the worse cases are certain academics naming found ruins after certain biblical towns with not the slightest bit of evidence.
They are so busy trying to prove the bible accurate they are retrofitting any physical findings into the biblical text and expecting the rest of academia to accept it as literal truth.
Off topic slightly is my take on Troy. Who says it's Troy? No one could prove it when it was found and no one can prove it now.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: spiritualKat33
I think religious text of all kind are hoaxes for the masses designed by various cultures and furthered through time by people that want to instill fear through the use of fictional characters.


You are pretty much completely off the mark (probably because of some anti-religious bias).

In all cultures and traditions, there is a need of a founding texts that helps to form society and bond people together with a common sense of purpose.

Texts like The epic of Gilgamesh (which inspired some parts of the OT), Greek myths, the Ramayana, the Norse Eddas, the Old Testament all belong to a writing genre called the Epic and contains all the knowledge of an oral tradition summarized in one book.


It's not about fear it's about a sense of belonging to a common culture.

So basically your theory is wrong.


You sound like one of the original authors of the OT. I can just imagine you meeting with a few of your friends in the year 450 B.C. laying out a plan to your colleagues to bring thousands of people together over a really long stretch of land, with an opening statement: In all cultures and traditions....
After a while one of your colleagues asks: How do we go about bonding people together?
and then you say: There are texts like... and they could be summarized into one book. We don't have to write the whole book from scratch we could just take bits and pieces from other previous texts and blend them into one book.

Then another of your colleagues asks: Wouldn't we be instilling fear into peoples minds writing such book?
and in conclusion you say: It's not about the fear it's about a sense of belonging to a common culture.

Now seriously if you know anything about the true authorship of the OT, can you please tell us.
edit on 26-5-2015 by bartholomeo because: forgot one word



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 04:16 PM
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Is that why it's a badge of honor for Christians (at least in the South in America) to be considered "God-fearing?"

That is proof that mass control works through the book, and its sad. This is why we need to get to the bottom of this so we can wake people up. Don't you find it strange that wikipedia doesn't have an entry for mass control. I mean after all these years no one has bothered to put up its definition? I find that hard to believe.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 04:25 PM
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Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: spiritualKat33
I think religious text of all kind are hoaxes for the masses designed by various cultures and furthered through time by people that want to instill fear through the use of fictional characters.


You are pretty much completely off the mark (probably because of some anti-religious bias).

In all cultures and traditions, there is a need of a founding texts that helps to form society and bond people together with a common sense of purpose.

Texts like The epic of Gilgamesh (which inspired some parts of the OT), Greek myths, the Ramayana, the Norse Eddas, the Old Testament all belong to a writing genre called the Epic and contains all the knowledge of an oral tradition summarized in one book.


It's not about fear it's about a sense of belonging to a common culture.

So basically your theory is wrong.


You sound like one of the original authors of the OT. I can just imagine you meeting with a few of your friends in the year 450 B.C. laying out a plan to your colleagues to bring thousands of people together over a really long stretch of land, with an opening statement: In all cultures and traditions....
After a while one of your colleagues asks: How do we go about bonding people together?
and then you say: There are texts like... and they could be summarized into one book. We don't have to write the whole book from scratch we could just take bits and pieces from other previous texts and blend them into one book.

Then another of your colleagues asks: Wouldn't we be instilling fear into peoples minds writing such book?
and in conclusion you say: It's not about the fear it's about a sense of belonging to a common culture.

Now seriously if you know anything about the true authorship of the OT, can you please tell us.


Torah wasn't about bringing together millions of people all over the world and instilling fear, it was about one group of people in one location, who then happened to spread out and we wouldn't know anything about them had it not been for Christianity that used Torah and Tanahk because Christians in the beginning were Jews.

You know, for such a small group of people historically, and one that didn't leave steles and inscriptions everywhere because they wrote on scrolls instead, really did make a huge difference in the world. Wouldn't you say that is amazing for such a group that has no statues (it was forbidden) and the only archeology was in the various cities they lived in?

And yet, there are steles in Egypt and Persia that mention them. Incredibly amazing for people who chose to write on scrolls and still have a living faith in traditions that are as old as Moses.

Did you know the Behustan Inscription is the same account found in the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai and Daniel?

(6) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda I became king of them: Persia [Pârsa], Elam [Ûvja], Babylonia [Bâbiruš], Assyria [Athurâ], Arabia [Arabâya], Egypt [Mudrâya], the countries by the Sea, Lydia [Sparda], the Greeks [Yauna], Media [Mâda], Armenia [Armina], Cappadocia [Katpatuka], Parthia [Parthava], Drangiana [Zraka], Aria [Haraiva], Chorasmia [Uvârazmîy], Bactria [Bâxtriš], Sogdia [Suguda], Gandhara [Gadâra], Scythia [Saka] (Ghi-mi-ri or Cimmeria in Babylonian version), Sattagydia [Thataguš], Arachosia [Harauvatiš] and Maka [Maka]; twenty-three lands in all.

(7) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject to me; by the grace of Ahuramazda they became subject to me; they brought tribute unto me. Whatsoever commands have been laid on them by me, by night or by day, have been performed by them. (8) King Darius says: Within these lands, whosoever was a friend, him have I surely protected; whosoever was hostile, him have I utterly destroyed. By the grace of Ahuramazda these lands have conformed to my decrees; as it was commanded unto them by me, so was it done.


The Jews record that the northern kingdom (which is one of the sea countries) was taken to Babylon and that they paid tribute to Darius. Not only that, they petitioned Darius to allow them to go back to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls. Darius signed the decree allowing them to.

The Bible records the names in Hebrew, but it does mention the campaigns of Darius and Cyrus, that are on the Behustan Inscription

Daniel records the fall of Belshazzar, who said he was a son of Nebuchadnezzar, and Darius killed him. That is in the Bible and the Behustan Inscription.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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The Old Testament is TORAH and TANAHK. Did you not know this?

Did you know that if you go into any synagogue they have a giant..wait for it....Torah scroll, which is the Old Testament. Who wrote Torah? A bunch of Jewish people.



Yes I knew that the OT is based on jewish books, but I am not jewish and therefore call it like everybody in the city I live in calls it, and that would be The Old Testament. If you are jewish I'm pretty sure you call it the Torah, that doesn't take out the fact that your answer about who wrote the OT was... mmmhh how should I put it? Mediocre.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 06:10 PM
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originally posted by: bartholomeo




The Old Testament is TORAH and TANAHK. Did you not know this?

Did you know that if you go into any synagogue they have a giant..wait for it....Torah scroll, which is the Old Testament. Who wrote Torah? A bunch of Jewish people.




Yes I knew that the OT is based on jewish books, but I am not jewish and therefore call it like everybody in the city I live in calls it, and that would be The Old Testament. If you are jewish I'm pretty sure you call it the Torah, that doesn't take out the fact that your answer about who wrote the OT was... mmmhh how should I put it? Mediocre.


NOT based on...IS.

Considering that Torah and Tanahk were written over several hundred years, by various people and canonized by rabbis, why don't you let the rabbis speak for themselves?

Here you go, Rabbi Shmuley Yanklowitz


First we must understand that those who claim our ancient texts are historically flawed cannot succeed at removing the grandeur and beauty of our tradition. Along with the obsolescence of the documentary hypothesis, scholars have found that the arguments that the Torah has multiple authors and a later canonization due to varying masoretic texts uncompelling. Further, we need not embrace biblical criticism, or that J, E, P, and D were the four main authors, as some biblical scholars have claimed. G-d speaks in different voices that may appear to be inconsistent or originate from different individuals.


So who wrote it? A bunch of Jewish people. That's what I said earlier.

Rabbi Eli Brackman

I am not religiously Jewish, I am, however, ancestrally Jewish and do keep mitzvots. You are trying to ask who wrote books that are over 3,000 years old, over time, with many writers.

They call it Torah, so I will.
edit on 5/26/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 06:11 PM
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originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: bartholomeo
I have to totally agree with you, and what's worse are biblical archeologists. At the moment, especially Israeli biblical archeologists, they are trying very, very hard to prove their historical accuracy. At this time they are clutching at any straw that comes along. Some of the worse cases are certain academics naming found ruins after certain biblical towns with not the slightest bit of evidence.
They are so busy trying to prove the bible accurate they are retrofitting any physical findings into the biblical text and expecting the rest of academia to accept it as literal truth.
Off topic slightly is my take on Troy. Who says it's Troy? No one could prove it when it was found and no one can prove it now.



Yeah archeological evidence is not going well for the bible, but it is for Troy. Archeologists are making progress.

1. They found various cities buried in the location described in Homer's writhings, and they also found jewels that supposedly belonged to Helen, although the jewels are a thousand years older than the date given by Homer, and also found arrows which could mean there was a war. I think that's enough evidence to suggest Homer may have written about a city that did exist.


edit on 26-5-2015 by bartholomeo because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 06:12 PM
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originally posted by: Coagula
Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.



I am sure most people would agree that it was not written by the Greek God Zeus.



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 06:15 PM
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originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: Coagula
Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.



I am sure most people would agree that it was not written by the Greek God Zeus.


OK, that we agree on.

Where did they get the idea of Zeus?



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 06:25 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: Coagula
Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.



I am sure most people would agree that it was not written by the Greek God Zeus.


OK, that we agree on.

Where did they get the idea of Zeus?


Je-zeus?



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 06:27 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Warmindy thanks for your reply. I'm still thinking out an answer for you. Thanks for waiting lol



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: Coagula
Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.



I am sure most people would agree that it was not written by the Greek God Zeus.


OK, that we agree on.

Where did they get the idea of Zeus?


Je-zeus?



You must be thinking of the little Mexican guy selling corn fajitas from his cart.

Hey-soos......



posted on May, 26 2015 @ 07:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: spiritualKat33
I think religious text of all kind are hoaxes for the masses designed by various cultures and furthered through time by people that want to instill fear through the use of fictional characters.


You are pretty much completely off the mark (probably because of some anti-religious bias).

In all cultures and traditions, there is a need of a founding texts that helps to form society and bond people together with a common sense of purpose.

Texts like The epic of Gilgamesh (which inspired some parts of the OT), Greek myths, the Ramayana, the Norse Eddas, the Old Testament all belong to a writing genre called the Epic and contains all the knowledge of an oral tradition summarized in one book.


It's not about fear it's about a sense of belonging to a common culture.

So basically your theory is wrong.


You sound like one of the original authors of the OT. I can just imagine you meeting with a few of your friends in the year 450 B.C. laying out a plan to your colleagues to bring thousands of people together over a really long stretch of land, with an opening statement: In all cultures and traditions....
After a while one of your colleagues asks: How do we go about bonding people together?
and then you say: There are texts like... and they could be summarized into one book. We don't have to write the whole book from scratch we could just take bits and pieces from other previous texts and blend them into one book.

Then another of your colleagues asks: Wouldn't we be instilling fear into peoples minds writing such book?
and in conclusion you say: It's not about the fear it's about a sense of belonging to a common culture.

Now seriously if you know anything about the true authorship of the OT, can you please tell us.


Torah wasn't about bringing together millions of people all over the world and instilling fear, it was about one group of people in one location, who then happened to spread out and we wouldn't know anything about them had it not been for Christianity that used Torah and Tanahk because Christians in the beginning were Jews.

Oh so jews had humble beginnings and we probably would not know much about them if christians hadn't adopted the OT?


You know, for such a small group of people historically, and one that didn't leave steles and inscriptions everywhere because they wrote on scrolls instead, really did make a huge difference in the world. Wouldn't you say that is amazing for such a group that has no statues (it was forbidden) and the only archeology was in the various cities they lived in?

I totally agree they are an amazing group of people that have fougt against the current their whole life, and still are, quite frankly I don't know how they manage. I wish they could focus more on technological advancement rather than old traditions though, I guess they got that from their brothers the muslims who still live in a very archaic way.

And yet, there are steles in Egypt and Persia that mention them. Incredibly amazing for people who chose to write on scrolls and still have a living faith in traditions that are as old as Moses.


Did you know the Behustan Inscription is the same account found in the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai and Daniel?

(6) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda I became king of them: Persia [Pârsa], Elam [Ûvja], Babylonia [Bâbiruš], Assyria [Athurâ], Arabia [Arabâya], Egypt [Mudrâya], the countries by the Sea, Lydia [Sparda], the Greeks [Yauna], Media [Mâda], Armenia [Armina], Cappadocia [Katpatuka], Parthia [Parthava], Drangiana [Zraka], Aria [Haraiva], Chorasmia [Uvârazmîy], Bactria [Bâxtriš], Sogdia [Suguda], Gandhara [Gadâra], Scythia [Saka] (Ghi-mi-ri or Cimmeria in Babylonian version), Sattagydia [Thataguš], Arachosia [Harauvatiš] and Maka [Maka]; twenty-three lands in all.

(7) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject to me; by the grace of Ahuramazda they became subject to me; they brought tribute unto me. Whatsoever commands have been laid on them by me, by night or by day, have been performed by them. (8) King Darius says: Within these lands, whosoever was a friend, him have I surely protected; whosoever was hostile, him have I utterly destroyed. By the grace of Ahuramazda these lands have conformed to my decrees; as it was commanded unto them by me, so was it done.


The Jews record that the northern kingdom (which is one of the sea countries) was taken to Babylon and that they paid tribute to Darius. Not only that, they petitioned Darius to allow them to go back to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls. Darius signed the decree allowing them to.

The Bible records the names in Hebrew, but it does mention the campaigns of Darius and Cyrus, that are on the Behustan Inscription

Daniel records the fall of Belshazzar, who said he was a son of Nebuchadnezzar, and Darius killed him. That is in the Bible and the Behustan Inscription.


Thanks for providing the link, however after reading the whole page, I could not find the name Belshazzar anywhere. I did some sarching on that name and the only thing I could come up with is that Belshazar was not the son of Nebuchadnessar or king of anything. Oh but I am sure the name must have been lost in translation.




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