Does an education correlate with ability or opportunity

originally posted by: OhOkYeah

originally posted by: onequestion
So here is what my question is... I always hear how people with a higher education will experience higher earning and better upward mobility. I agree that this is the case with very specific educations like coding, law, and medical. Obviously you can't do any of these things without a degree so those aren't the degrees I'm talking about, this is about everything else.

Does this statement apply to opportunities present to people with educations or does it apply to someones actual ability and work ethic?

People with higher education aren't guaranteed to have more opportunities than someone with out. Of course, people who attend universities will have more opportunities due to making more connections with people. Ability and work ethic don't always mean better or more opportunities. I think it's going to be more about connections you make with other people.

Here's an article related, in a way

elitedaily.com/money/c-students-are-successful-in-life/1039028/

c'mon....of course, a person will have more opportunities when they have a 4 year degree....look at the job sites in the paper or online....for the higher paying jobs, you will see that a bachelors degree is required just to be considered....after that, it's up to the individual to make his case to be hired based on his work history, experience, knowledge of the field, etc.....you have to get your foot in the door before it will open up for you.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Phage

So does the person with the education have more of an ability

I'd suggest more of an ability, but it's not automatic. A degree in "wymmen's studies" or a plethora of other silly degrees--you'll be still be working at Starbucks except you'll have tens of thousands of student debt.

Many of the more "serious" degrees come with internships and summer work programs that not only give you experience, but also get you networked so you can find a decent job at graduation.

For most a degree is just a "foot in the door." Like anything else, what you do with it, depends on the effort you are willing to put in.

originally posted by: Snarl
When I interview someone with education as the heavier substance of their résumé, I ask them, "If you could get those years back, would you do something different with your time?" Always fun to watch them struggle to say what I want to hear. Hilarious in fact.

Why on earth would people struggle? Unless they'd done some weird degree in Applied Liberal Basket Weaving and Transgender Studies and were now applying for a job anywhere but McDonalds or Starbucks. Even then, I'd rather say "No, I chose it because I have a genuine interest in that field. The subject-specific knowledge may not transition to the current role, but the skills, discipline, and mindset will."

An unusual choice only becomes a bad choice if you're not willing to stand your ground. After all, that odd degree might still be the perfect choice for some jobs, even if it's useless for the job you're current chasing.

originally posted by: Grumble
Education is not the same as job training. If you spend $100,000 on job training at University to get a $30,000 job, then I feel sorry for you. If you spend $100,000 becoming an educated person, then you will be a better citizen with better judgement and discernment who will be more valuable as an employee because of those things.

This is an excellent point and my biggest personal grip with what the University system has become.

It was never originally about "jobs" - in fact, quite the opposite. You wanted a job, you went to a trade school. University was the place for you to explore your own interests without the restriction of needing to be "trained for a job" at the end. Have a look through the list of "great intellectuals" from days long gone - lots of Doctors of Latin and Philosophy, etc. It was about education and exploration for the sake of education and exploration. People complaining about professors completely out of touch with reality... that should be their job. Blue sky thinking, exploring the impractical, occasionally stumbling across something of practical value that could change the world

Now it's all focused on marketing yourself to potential employers. The people who study the completely useless degrees ("The Impact of 1950s Horror Films on Newtonian Physics" etc) are actually staying more true to the original concept of University than the rest of us.

The only reason I'm mean about some of the stranger degrees is because the people who study them still seem to think they'll have a high-flying job at the end of it. If they study them with no expectation, just for the joy of studying them... well, good for them. As long as they're prepared to pay for it.

I have family members who went the way of worthless degrees. One has a masters in art studies and the other in sports teen management. Over two years of unemployment my artist was back in school to become a registered nurse. My son after three failed coaching jobs on the college level now has a master's in education and teaches on the high school level. Both have many thousands in student loans from 20 years ago and would be much farther along if they were plumbers.

It's my opinion, the educational system in the US is a money pit/scam. They offer areas of studies that can't be legitimate and has no reason other than to generate cash for the school. Tuition is well beyond reason especially private colleges. A student can expect to pay $12-15k per year for state schools and $20k per year at private institutions for tuition. It would seem that the smart students use the GI bill to pay for their schooling and have a skill to supplement their studies. It just the opposite from my time where men went to college to avoid military service.

When I graduated there were no jobs in my area of study so I went back to going what I had done in the military. I honestly can't say if the degree helped get an airline job or my experience flying in Vietnam. The sad point is that I have never have been employed in my field of study after my 1978 graduation.

originally posted by: buddah6

It's my opinion, the educational system in the US is a money pit/scam. They offer areas of studies that can't be legitimate and has no reason other than to generate cash for the school.

Only if you believe that University should only be about getting a job!

If someone wants to study it, it's perfectly legitimate for the course to be offered.

If someone signs up for it it because they want to, and they can afford to, it's perfectly legitimate.

The problem is when they sign up for it with unrealistic expectations of the utility of the degree in the job market. Both of the degrees you mentioned are probably ideal for certain jobs... if only they can get them.

By all means have a go at the marketing departments promising "Underwater Ballet in the 15th Century" graduates a guaranteed place as an astronaut on the next manned mission to Canada.

a reply to: EvillerBob

I agree with what you are saying. My daughter met with exactly what you are saying. She was truly interested in art and that is as far as it went until she needed a job. After interviewing with a few museums as a conservator she couldn't find anything. I suppose, while working at the deli, for minimum wage, she decided to go back to school. This time it was for a field of study that she could make a livable wage. That was twenty years ago and I think she's still paying on her student loans.

The problem with the education system is that it much to processed these days like it were cheese. It almost like the economy, the more people have the same amount of degrees or doctorates the more it goes down in value, or its impression does, where as the amount of jobs available become more limited till a supply in demand becomes demanded.

Doctors are always gonna be in demand because the amount of people available who are willing to be qualified, there will always be a demand, so that way they will always be paid well because of the demand of its importance.

Thing is that bugs me, is the amount of school or college kids that come year after year, and judging by how the planets population increases,and complaints about outdated textbooks, the more processed it becomes. Garbage men these days need a basic high school education just to work, where as by 2030, your gonna need a university degree to work in Mc Donalds.

originally posted by: onequestion
So here is what my question is... I always hear how people with a higher education will experience higher earning and better upward mobility. I agree that this is the case with very specific educations like coding, law, and medical. Obviously you can't do any of these things without a degree so those aren't the degrees I'm talking about, this is about everything else.

Does this statement apply to opportunities present to people with educations or does it apply to someones actual ability and work ethic?

Well if you choose a stupid liberal arts degree then no. I have friends that have pissed tens on thousands aways of stupid micky mouse degree and they are flipping burgers. Thats there fault for picking a useless degree.

If you want to get ahead its pretty easy, pick a STEM degree. If your too stupid to do a STEM degree then university is not for you so don’t waste the money and get a job.

My wife is the only one in the family that was employed straight out of college in her chosen field. She has just retired after 40 years at the same hospital.

I couldn't find a job in my field because there was a glut in engineers at the time. With a family, I had to be employed so I swept floors at a GM plant until I was hired by an airline as a pilot.

The question is, does education correlate to ability? Well, I can't answer this since I've never worked in the field that I was degreed.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: OhOkYeah

originally posted by: onequestion
So here is what my question is... I always hear how people with a higher education will experience higher earning and better upward mobility. I agree that this is the case with very specific educations like coding, law, and medical. Obviously you can't do any of these things without a degree so those aren't the degrees I'm talking about, this is about everything else.

Does this statement apply to opportunities present to people with educations or does it apply to someones actual ability and work ethic?

People with higher education aren't guaranteed to have more opportunities than someone with out. Of course, people who attend universities will have more opportunities due to making more connections with people. Ability and work ethic don't always mean better or more opportunities. I think it's going to be more about connections you make with other people.

Here's an article related, in a way

elitedaily.com/money/c-students-are-successful-in-life/1039028/

c'mon....of course, a person will have more opportunities when they have a 4 year degree....look at the job sites in the paper or online....for the higher paying jobs, you will see that a bachelors degree is required just to be considered....after that, it's up to the individual to make his case to be hired based on his work history, experience, knowledge of the field, etc.....you have to get your foot in the door before it will open up for you.

Yes but you can make connections without having that foot in the door in the form of a diploma. Hell, you can do it without any work experience. I'd say it's more about personality and how well you are able to gauge other peoples' personalities.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: onequestion

College is a rip off now a days in my opinion.

Learn a trade skill if you like working with your hands, you will almost always have work.. Won't make millions a year but you can live comfortably in most places.

My wife's uncle was a Farrier make 150k a year before he passed away...(he did horse shoes at the race track) 3 year apprenticeship then you make good money if you are good and have a strong work ethic.

A good farrier is worth his/her weight in gold and VERY hard to come by. I have one that comes on a regular schedule. But we struggled for years before we found him. Usually farriers are so busy that getting someone to return your calls or be reliable was next to impossible.

a reply to: buddah6

There are other ways to get your student loans forgiven...such as STEM work in K-12 education.

Also, $20K for a private school is really low. Most private schools that I wanted my son to consider cost $60K and up per year. As I mentioned in my other post, he choose instead to go to a 4 yr public university where his friends are going and it was still $24K/year.

If you watch the documentary I posted "Ivory Tower," it talks about the rising costs of tuition and what is underlying it. It talks about the paradigm shift from universities as places of study to "party schools" and what 'perks' they can provide to draw students & their money. Things like fitness centers, stadiums, high tech student centers, etc....

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
a reply to: buddah6

There are other ways to get your student loans forgiven...such as STEM work in K-12 education.

Also, $20K for a private school is really low. Most private schools that I wanted my son to consider cost $60K and up per year. As I mentioned in my other post, he choose instead to go to a 4 yr public university where his friends are going and it was still $24K/year.

If you watch the documentary I posted "Ivory Tower," it talks about the rising costs of tuition and what is underlying it. It talks about the paradigm shift from universities as places of study to "party schools" and what 'perks' they can provide to draw students & their money. Things like fitness centers, stadiums, high tech student centers, etc....

I haven't had children in college for twenty years. Their tuition for the under-graduate degrees came from my pocket and only their post grad work came from them. My daughter is a registered nurse with a master's in art studies and my oldest son is an economics teacher working on his PhE so I'm not sure either qualifies for STEM grants but I will pass the information along to them.

I have to disagree a little bit here. An education doesn't necessarily mean you have great ability, but it certainly will increase your opportunities. I work in IT and I wouldn't have gotten my job without my degree. I got in with virtually no experience - just an internship - but I had a degree and several certifications on my resume that won me my job. However I have learned that experience is more important than an education, especially in IT. Someone who has spent 10+ years working with servers and knows how to get them set up and fix any issues that they run in to, is worth their weight in gold with or without a degree in anything. But more often than not you won't get a chance to get that hands-on experience without that piece of paper handed to you from a college.

Also a college degree isn't just about what you learned in college. It's also a sign to your prospective employer that you had the work ethic and dedication to see college through to the end. You will be surprised how many people get hired for jobs they didn't go to college for, but just having a degree in something is enough to impress the employer. If this weren't the case, people who have liberal arts degrees wouldn't get hired to do anything. (funny, but also true)

One more thing, a good attitude and the ability to get along with others is the most important thing you can have when looking for a job. You can be the most educated, skillful, experienced person in the world but if you treat your boss and coworkers like crap you will not stay employed in the vast majority of workplaces.

a reply to: CIAGypsy

I agree, I wish I had known about it as a career option coming out of high school.

Now I'm a little to old and to broken to start...

On topic

I just wish high school wouldn't push college so hard, sitting in a classroom is torture for me and many other folks, yet busting my butt learning with my hands I learn rapidly.

Well, this is another thread where I get to be pretty long winded, wish I had seen the thread sooner.

originally posted by: onequestion
Does this statement apply to opportunities present to people with educations or does it apply to someones actual ability and work ethic?

Well, a few months back I was offered a part time coding job for GE that started at $65k/year in one of the lowest cost of living areas in the country. I ended up turning it down because I couldn't balance the job with my class schedule that I cared about more (90 minute commute from one to the other). I've seen a lot of people in the same classes I've had show up, take the easy A professors, and then graduate while not really learning how to do anything. I've also seen a few that have really applied themselves and actually learned something valuable.

In the end, my opinion is that a piece of paper simply says you've sat through the classes. It says nothing of the quality of the classes, the quality of your work, or your ability to apply information.

If you have the degree you have a higher chance of getting a good paying job, but even without an education you still have a chance. It's all just a bunch of probability.

That said, I have both a formal and informal education in a variety of fields. I'm more competent in the formal ones. I've found that when you're self taught you tend to develop habits that make working with others in the field difficult.

originally posted by: Snarl
When I interview someone with education as the heavier substance of their résumé, I ask them, "If you could get those years back, would you do something different with your time?" Always fun to watch them struggle to say what I want to hear. Hilarious in fact.

A family member of mine actually asked me this very question over Christmas. I'm quite happy with what I've learned and my field, but in hindsight I think there were ways to have done it in less time, and at less expense. Then again, that's pretty typical of hindsight.

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
I think the answer to this question depends on what you want to do with your life. Think of life like the Bell Curve. Where you do want to fit in it?

Where do I fit? I don't really care about how much money I make, I simply want to do what I want to do and if it happens to be a giant success, I'm fine with that. If it isn't I'm fine with that too. I don't see why I need to compare myself to how others are doing.

originally posted by: ketsuko
A wise person considers what they study.

In my opinion more important than choosing what you study, is choosing where you study. Tuition plus living expenses is a big deal. Going to a school where you have to pay 30k/year in tuition then another 20k/year in living expenses is not a good plan.

There's a lot of merit to less prestigious schools in my opinion.