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EU nationals without UK passports should not have the vote in a UK referendum on EU membership

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posted on May, 25 2015 @ 06:50 AM
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a reply to: biggilo



Why are we talking about bloody Scotland again?


Its getting rather tedious isn't it.

This thread has absolutely zero to do with Scottish independence - that was done to the nth degree last year - and everything to do with the proposed UK referendum on continued UK membership of the EU.

Whether the Nats like it or not the fact remains that if the referendum does take place - something I still have doubts about - Scotland will be a full and active part of the UK.

And the refusal to acknowledge that the criteria for voting rights for the Scottish referendum was set by Holyrood borders on outright ignorance.

Its also worth noting that it was the Scottish government that opposed Scots living in other areas of the UK the right to vote in their countries independence referendum.




posted on May, 25 2015 @ 07:53 AM
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a reply to: Freeborn

What's getting tedious are shifting goalposts.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 08:20 AM
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originally posted by: TheShippingForecast
a reply to: Freeborn

What's getting tedious are shifting goalposts.
What exactly are you whining about?
It appears you joined ATS solely to reply in this thread so please do tell, what issues do you have with EU nationals not having the vote in the referendum to decide if the UK leaves the EU or not?

As it happens, the thread is a moot point now as the decision seems to have been made. The million plus EU nationals living in the UK will NOT be able to influence the vote on UK independence. That pleases me.
You can bleat as much as you like about non-Scots getting the vote last year in the Scottish referendum, but that is a totally different matter and you really should be bleating outside Holyrood as that is the place the decision was made.

The UK referendum rules are decided at Westminster. That also pleases me.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

I think there should be consistency in the electoral registration system, to prevent advantage by the side calling the election. That's as good for the Scottish referendum, the general election & this new in/out EU referendum.

People of good faith should agree on that.

The DM reports today that the SNP & Labour now want 16/17 year olds to participate in this forthcoming referendum too.

Why I registered and participate on this website is of no concern to you.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 08:34 AM
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a reply to: TheShippingForecast

What? You want consistency based on the voting rights the Scottish government decided last year? Is that what you are saying?
The UK is having a referendum and the UK government is deciding on who can vote on it. EU nationals cannot vote, and neither can 16/17 year olds.
So the Scots had different rules, so what?
The Scots aren't calling the shots this time, and I'll admit I just laughed out loud when the news just came on Radio One that the SNP are calling for 16/17 year olds to get the vote. Haha, those 56 SNP MP's can do nothing about it, unlucky.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 08:43 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

The SNP were as guilty of playing for advantage by allowing 16/17 year olds as Cameron now seems to be by allowing British citizens overseas the vote. I don't support voting rights at 16//17 years of age, I don't support EU nationals voting in UK elections nor do I think Brits living abroad should be allowed to vote in UK elections either (apart from the usual exceptions).

Like I say, the electoral register should be consistent from one election to the next.

I trust that clarifies my position.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 08:47 AM
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a reply to: TheShippingForecast

It appears we mostly agree then, although I support the right of any British passport holder having the right to vote regardless of where they live. The result of the vote could influence how their passport is accepted in Europe, so they of course have a vested interest.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 09:01 AM
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a reply to: TheShippingForecast



What's getting tedious are shifting goalposts.


Who moved the goalposts that allowed 16 year old the vote and barred Scots living in the UK but outside of Scotland the vote?

Holyrood that's who and not Westminster.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 09:07 AM
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a reply to: Freeborn

That is conveniently ignored by many folk.
I wonder how big the 'no' vote would have been had 16/17 year olds been excluded and Scots in other parts of the UK been included.
The SNP knew that of course, as the UK also knows that a million plus EU nationals would influence the EU referendum.
I'm actually surprised that EU nationals have been excluded as I'm of the opinion that Cameron doesn't really want the UK to leave.
I guess his hand was forced though, there would have rightly been a bit of an outcry if they were allowed to vote on a solely UK issue.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

I have to admit, the governments announcement today is ambitious. Perhaps five million UK citizens live overseas. Quite how local officials will deal with the registration of so many people from overseas in time for the EU referendum I don't know. It sounds administratively complex, difficult to police and expensive to administer.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: TheShippingForecast

I don't see any administrative problems at all, the UK is an advanced nation don't you agree.
I registered online for the election this month, two hours before the deadline, provided my name/DOB/National insurance number, and my voting card came through the post a few days later.
What difference does a foreign address make? Couple of extra days waiting for the mail is all I see.

The digital world does make things like that rather easy to administer these days.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 10:16 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

The information you provided was no doubt cross referenced against government systems, DWP or HMRC via CIS, or against the council tax register in your borough.

But not every Brit overseas will be current with DWP or HMRC. Their information, if it exists at all (date retention rules ensure much official information is weeded eventually, even off computer systems), might be years out of date.

You might have described yourself on your application as British, English for example. But that's the one thing they didn't check when you applied for to vote ... your nationality. Local officials have no way to check your nationality. They have to rely on your honesty. And i don't think honesty is a sufficient safeguard when it comes to allowing those overseas to vote in our elections.

Your national insurance number, for example, is not proof of your nationality. It's merely a number used to identify you for tax and welfare purposes. So the government will have to find a way to cross reference applications from overseas Brits against passport & nationality records. That will require a law change. I think that will have to be done to ensure that there's no scope for registration fraud from persons overseas.

Digital delivery of government services is one area where UK does quite well. But no system yet exists to automatically cross reference electoral registration applications against passport & nationality records. There's no prospect of having such a system in place in time either. That's where it'll have to be done manually, unfortunately, with an army of officials being taken on to create an overseas voting register and to validate applications. Applicants might have to supply proof of nationality when they apply, that'll need checked manually. All that having to be done whilst keeping the domestic voting registers up to date, too, registers which might be more active themselves due to voter interest.

That's why I describe this issue as complex, expensive, difficult to administer.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 10:33 AM
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I don't see an issue. British citizens holding British passports are registered on a government database.
The government simply cross references that with any application to vote by an overseas Brit.
Not really too difficult, and are you dreaming up that 'law change' or something?
There is no data protection issue when a UK citizen asks for the right to vote and the government checks their eligibility from it's own database.
I think you are just looking for problems that don't exist.
The government have already said it is going to happen so anything you say is hardly going to draw me towards believing it will be unable to do so.
...do you know something the UK government does not?



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 10:55 AM
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In the absence of any constitutional framework for holding referendums any decision on who is eligible to vote is open to accusations of bias one way or the other.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

The government doesn't simply cross reference anything. For example it took DWP, local authorities & HMRC the best part of ten years to negotiate a cross referencing agreement when tax credits were introduced, regulations had to be finally laid before Parliament to allow the transmission of information from one department to the other such were the complexities of the issues.

I'm just showing you some of the "on the ground" problems that will arise, take it or (more likely) leave it. We can always re-visit the issue in 2 years time when the headlines are full of Brits overseas who haven't been able to register.

It must be nice to have confidence in government.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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a reply to: TheShippingForecast
As much as agreeing with Grain gives me a sore head I must admit I can't see the complication. Aren't the rules suggested basically the same as for a general election?



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:07 AM
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a reply to: TheShippingForecast

I'll trust official statements from government before I trust anything you tell me about how or what the government is capable of achieving.
Have you forgotten we have a majority government in power now, it can pretty much do whatever it likes so long as it's own MP's agree to it. We have no bill of rights remember.
The government has stated that overseas Brits will get the vote, you appear to hold some special position which qualifies you to assert that they are unable to do it. Sorry, you do not convince me.
...and you seem to have some problem with overseas Brits getting the vote which I cannot understand but hey, it ain't your decision. Unlucky.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Haha! I agreed with Solo earlier in a different thread!

...and regarding your comments on bias just above, totally agree. It will be a loaded question for sure as well, and I predict now that the 'Yes' choice will be to stay in the EU. I'd bet all my money on that.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:16 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand
You agreed with Solo????????!!!!!!! In finest ATS tradition I demand a link or it didn't happen.
Don't see why it should have to be a yes/no question. Two clear options could be offered regarding leaving or staying in the UK.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:17 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: TheShippingForecast
As much as agreeing with Grain gives me a sore head I must admit I can't see the complication. Aren't the rules suggested basically the same as for a general election?



Government wishes to give the vote for the in/out EU referendum to those Brits who have been living abroad for 15 years or less, or less than 15 years, depending on which media source you're using.

So how does an electoral registration officer validate that ? Or should he rely on the honesty of the person applying to vote ? Those are the kind of questions I'm thinking about.

Agreeing with grainofsand ? Impossible. He changes his position in every post.

He's as consistent as a blancmange in a hailstorm.




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