Geothermal, Let's Get Real

a reply to: Kester


You know that drilling is most often a commercial enterprise, right? Like for oil. The money comes mostly from shareholders and venture capitalists.

a reply to: Kester

Not really.


Funding for renewables such as Geothermal and solar are around 300 million while subsidies and funding for fossil fuels are closer to a trillion.

Interesting read. I think a lot of people don't really understand geothermal systems. It looks like you're focusing on the deep-earth type, drilling down miles, or tapping geo steam sources. This isn't very practical unless your in the area of these conditions.

I have built a couple of custom geo systems on residential properties. They can be installed in just about any condition other than rock.

You are not tapping any kind of energy other than a constant temp. You can run your loops for the wells vertical or horizontally in the ground @ or below 15', you can also run your loops in a pond, if its deep enough.

The initial investment is worth it if you plan on keeping the property and the owners love them.

Your essentially circulating water in the ground where it's at a constant 57 degrees Fahrenheit.
Once that water comes back to the house, it goes through a radiator type heat exchanger that the air travels through. It's either heated by a small boiler first, for heating, or left as -is for your cooling.

That heated water, can be ran through tubing in the floor for radiant heating as well.

Pretty cool systems.

Geothermal is not clean.

You have sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide, large amounts of CO2,and mercury, in the steam known as non condensable gases.

And they can cause earthquakes due to the fracking needed to get high steam flow.
I worked at the Coso geothermal power plants in calif doing construction for about 2 years.
themilitaryengineer.com...

Geothermal is the future of the planet, and pretty cheap to install and maintain.

If I were to build a home, this is the system I would install.

It's also a lot more reliable than solar, wind, or wave energy.

a reply to: babybunnies

Geothermal is the future of the planet, and pretty cheap to install and maintain.

No. There are places where it is not practical. It is not a global solution. There is no global solution, there are various alternatives.

If I were to build a home, this is the system I would install.

Where I live, there is no need for heating of any type. If I could afford it, I would install a PV system for electricity though. Still might.

originally posted by: Kester


Can you tell us about a working geothermal plant other than Iceland, (where steam come out of the ground?)

New Zealand built its first geothermal power plant in 1958. This renewable energy source is an actual and reliable thing.

www.nzgeothermal.org.nz...

Hot rocks is a new type of geothermal resource being experimented on here in Aus. The already have a baby plant running as proof of concept in the outback

www.petratherm.com.au...

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: ANNED
Geothermal is not clean.

You have sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide, large amounts of CO2,and mercury, in the steam known as non condensable gases.

In places like NZ, those gases are emitted regardless - the whole city of Rotorua smells like rotten eggs (hydrogen sulphide) because of the geothermal activity. The Wairakei power plant is only channeling what is already coming out of the ground through turbines.

And they can cause earthquakes due to the fracking needed to get high steam flow.
I worked at the Coso geothermal power plants in calif doing construction for about 2 years.
themilitaryengineer.com...

Maybe with hot rocks perhaps, but once again, using existing volcanic systems in NZ has not had any significant effect on seismic activity. The steam and tremors were there long before the plant was built.

the very first geothermal power plant that opened in the U.S. was the Geysers in california in 1960, owned and operated by Pacific Gas and Electric Company. the original turbine lasted 30 years.

here cause like a i say it's fast.
plus there is another benefit that has been found for geothermal.

The largest dry steam field in the world is the Geysers, 116 km (72 mi) north of San Francisco. It was here that Pacific Gas and Electric began operation of the first successful geothermal electric power plant in the United States in 1960.[7] The original turbine lasted for more than 30 years and produced 11 MW net power.[8] The Geysers has 1517 megawatt (MW)[9] of active installed capacity with an average capacity factor of 63%.[10] Calpine Corporation owns 15 of the 18 active plants in the Geysers and is currently the United States' largest producer of geothermal energy.[11] Two other plants are owned jointly by the Northern California Power Agency and the City of Santa Clara's municipal Electric Utility (now called Silicon Valley Power). The remaining Bottle Rock Power plant owned by the US Renewables Group has only recently been reopened.[12] A nineteenth plant is now under development by Ram Power, formerly Western Geopower. Since the activities of one geothermal plant affects those nearby, the consolidation plant ownership at The Geysers has been beneficial because the plants operate cooperatively instead of in their own short-term interest. The Geysers is now recharged by injecting treated sewage effluent from the City of Santa Rosa and the Lake County sewage treatment plant. This sewage effluent used to be dumped into rivers and streams and is now piped to the geothermal field where it replenishes the steam produced for power generation.

Unlike some other renewable power sources such as wind and solar, geothermal energy is dispatchable, meaning that it is both available whenever needed, and can quickly adjust output to match demand. According to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA), of all types of new electrical generation plants, geothermal generators have the highest capacity factor, a measure of how much power a facility actually generates as a percent of its maximum capacity. The EIA rates new geothermal plants as having a 92% capacity factor, higher than those of nuclear (90%), gas (87%), or coal (85%), and much higher than those of intermittent sources such as onshore wind (34%) or solar photovoltaic (25%).[19] While the carrier medium for geothermal electricity (water) must be properly managed, the source of geothermal energy, the Earth's heat, will be available, for most intents and purposes, indefinitely.[5][20] In 2008 the USDOE funded research in Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS) to learn more about the fracture systems in geothermal reservoirs and better predict the results of reservoir stimulation.

and of course there are some draw backs,

The underground hot water and steam used to generate geothermal power may contain chemicals that could pollute the air and water if released at the surface. Hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic in high concentrations, is sometimes found in geothermal systems.[21] Newer methods of generating geothermal power separate the hot steam collected underground from the steam used to power turbines, and substantially reduce the risk of releasing air-polluting contaminants.[22] The water mixed with the steam contains dissolved salts that can damage pipes and harm aquatic ecosystems.[23] Some subsurface water associated with geothermal sources contain high concentrations of toxic elements such as boron, lead, and arsenic. Injection of water in enhanced geothermal systems may cause induced seismicity. Earthquakes at the Geysers geothermal field in California, the largest being Richter magnitude 4.6, have been linked to injected water.[24] "Possible effects include scenery spoliation, drying out of hot springs, soil erosion, noise pollution, and chemical pollution of the atmosphere and of surface- and groundwater

Geothermal energy in the United States

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Kester

Not really.


Funding for renewables such as Geothermal and solar are around 300 million while subsidies and funding for fossil fuels are closer to a trillion.

Interesting point here. What are the chances of getting your hands on fossil fuel subsidies if you're an average guy with barely any savings?

Now look at the possibilities for getting a slice of the renewables cake. Hire a drilling rig and call yourself a ground source heat pump installer. Drill the holes short and you're doing even less work for your share of the funding.

Set yourself up as a solar panel installer and use the fakes that have a german unit at each end with chinese poor quality units in between. (Some chinese panels are now among the best. I'm not knocking all chinese panels.)

Or just do it all legit knowing a proportion of the money you're being paid has come from the public purse.

If you're a young person eager to enter the world of renewables you can't do better than training as a ground source heat pump troubleshooter. It's a bit like being Mystic Meg. I'm sure someone somewhere has a ground source heat pump that really has worked and saved enough electricity to balance the pollution caused by the manufacture,installation and eventual responsible decommissioning of the entire system. I've only heard one bad story after another from GSHP users.

The fake green 'renewable' energy scam is sold through skilful advertising. Small independent systems are the way to go. No more bills. All the big renewable energy scams are financed by people who want you to pay them.

a reply to: Phage

We've had disasters here with Ground Source Heat Pumps. Sewer cracked, general subsidence and minor property damage over a large area after many holes re-drilled. Re-drilled because rip-off drillers drilled short. A common scam. Excessive electricity bills to run the systems that are only green if they save electricity compared to standard systems. Otherwise where's the greenness? Difficulty controlling the systems. Excessive noise, often at night. Subsidence over small areas causing major property damage. Channels opened up allowing ground runoff to penetrate aquifers which may be essential water sources for future generations! Lack of understanding of adequate decommissioning procedures. All in all a general lack of connectedness with reality.

An experienced member of a drilling team told me you never know what you'll find. A geological prediction can be way off. It's just an educated guess.

Your pretty coloured diagram is accompanied by the words,

analyses on the likely temperatures to be found

and

Expected temperatures at depths below the ground surface of 100, 200, 500 and 1000 m are 13, 16, 24 and 38 °C respectively.

That means they don't know, they're just guessing. If the predictions turn out to be disappointingly wrong guess what? They'll ask for more money to do it again.

a reply to: Kester

Geothermal is clean effective fuel source in some areas.. It is a well underused tech..

ty op

star and flag

purp

a reply to: Kester

Interesting point here. What are the chances of getting your hands on fossil fuel subsidies if you're an average guy with barely any savings?

Probably next to zero. All of that money goes to huge corporations so they can increase their profits and continue business as usual.

Now look at the possibilities for getting a slice of the renewables cake. Hire a drilling rig and call yourself a ground source heat pump installer. Drill the holes short and you're doing even less work for your share of the funding.

I guess there would be a possibility for job creation. New jobs and small businesses sprouting up is a good sign in the economy.

Set yourself up as a solar panel installer and use the fakes that have a german unit at each end with chinese poor quality units in between. (Some chinese panels are now among the best. I'm not knocking all chinese panels.)

Except that where I am at we have installation inspectors and if the panels differ from what has been ordered by the customer the installers will not get paid.

Or just do it all legit knowing a proportion of the money you're being paid has come from the public purse.

What do you mean by "or do it legit" legitimate business has been then only business I have been talking about. As far as public purse money goes would you rather give it all to BP or shell every single year?

If you're a young person eager to enter the world of renewables you can't do better than training as a ground source heat pump troubleshooter. It's a bit like being Mystic Meg.

Possibly. Aren't we a bit off track now though? I thought your big to do against geothermal was that it must be drilled for like we have to drill for oil? Now you seem to be into in ground home heat pumps.

I'm sure someone somewhere has a ground source heat pump that really has worked and saved enough electricity to balance the pollution caused by the manufacture,installation and eventual responsible decommissioning of the entire system. I've only heard one bad story after another from GSHP users.

Never heard my uncle complain about his or my cousin. Maybe you have some actual statistics I hate going by story after story I am sure facts could be found.

The fake green 'renewable' energy scam is sold through skilful advertising. Small independent systems are the way to go. No more bills. All the big renewable energy scams are financed by people who want you to pay them.

What are the fake renewable energy scams being sold? What are the big renewable energy scams you are talking about?

What makes them scams and do you have hard evidence to back up your reasons?

Very interesting thread, many thanks to you all.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Job creation isn't green if the technology doesn't work.

Here the local authority do not adequately check work in progress. Especially when it's being paid for out of the public purse. It's all about having a good theoretical presentation no matter how far it is from the facts.

There are so many crooks and swindlers in the UK renewables market it has to be mentioned as a warning to potential victims.

I would rather public funded projects followed logical lines, such as rocket mass heaters and tree planting etc. Stuff that works.

I have horrendous personal experience of ground source heat pumps and the lies the trough swillers tell after it all goes wrong. I understand it's solar energy in the surface of the Earths crust, not actual geothermal though often erroneously referred to as geothermal.

Can you ask your cousin and uncle what make and type of GSHP. Coil or borehole? Installed when? If coil any problems with diminishing return over the years? A gradual slowing of plant growth and increase in electricity consumption are the signs. The latest nightmare we recently escaped from was a Mitsubishi ASHP. Noisy, fragile and badly installed. Paid for by the authority responsible for upholding standards so no hope of the poor installation being rectified. There are no complaints from the tenants is the mantra. Liars.

Every GSHP they installed has been replaced after a fraction of the advertised 'green' lifespan. Do you think the authority responsible have admitted to this? Search the story and you get a total fantasy online. Yes, I've been to my MP about it with photographs and video. He did a marvellous job of getting the situation made safe, but that was as far as it went.

The local authority and I have an uneasy truce at the moment but I do make it clear on occasion that I may one day decide to embarrass them. They have already put false stories about us in the local paper to discredit us. These slurs were picked up by a trade journal. It's a dirty war exposing the 'green' trough swilling criminals. Details would identify me so don't ask. The story is here for the readers. Some of whom may avoid becoming victims if they take heed.


Everything feeding into the grid is a scam. They want you hooked.

a reply to: markosity1973

Nice links, thanks.
www.nzgeothermal.org.nz...

Geothermal energy produces about 13% of New Zealand's electricity supply. Most of New Zealand's installed geothermal generating capacity of about 750 MWe is situated in the Taupo Volcanic Zone

13% of New Zealands supply! Hey fellow Brits! We can invest in geothermal! Oh, wait. Situated in the Taupo Volcanic Zone. We haven't got a Volcanic Zone.

Here on this island we have to do what works. Not what 'green' fantasists have been conned into.

a reply to: Phage

The PV system that was fitted to our previous house ran a washing machine on a sunny day. The panels were from Singapore. Probably flown in. They often are.

The system was connected to the grid so our landlord could sell unused power. This means for grid repair technicians safety the system automatically shuts down if the grid loses power. There was no way to tap into the panels so they would be useless during an extended outage.

An indoors smart meter was part of the system.

The roof integrity was adversely affected by the installation of the panels.

Incredibly all the houses with the replacement GSHPs were given PV systems so we wouldn't complain about the high electricity costs of the second generation superior german GSHPs which are sold as being green due to low electricty consumption. They were all replacement GSHPs because the first lot all broke down after three-five years and many had been installed with short boreholes drilled by scamming drilling teams.

PV panels. Off grid. Secondhand batteries from golf carts or cell phone towers. (Batteries that are replaced regularly while still in good condition.)
This works.
I wouldn't call it green but it certainly gives you the juice for lights and comms and maybe a bit of music and entertainment.

originally posted by: Kester



Looking for images of working geothermal projects I find Iceland, where steam comes out of the ground, and drawings. Anyone can produce illustrations that show what they want to happen. Reality will assert itself once drilling progresses.

Your research skills are obviously not up to par and your information is behind the times.
You have to look further afield.

Here's a success story




Oh, I see, you keep changing your tune as more information is fed to you. At least you're open-minded, I guess...

a reply to: ANNED

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

www.nzgeothermal.org.nz...

The project’s apparent collapse comes a day after Swiss government officials permanently shut down a similar project in Basel, because of the damaging earthquakes it produced in 2006 and 2007.

Geothermal enthusiasts asserted that drilling miles into hard rock, as required by the technique, could be done quickly and economically with small improvements in existing methods, Professor Schrag said. “What we’ve discovered is that it’s harder to make those improvements than some people believed,” he added.

a reply to: aorAki

Are these all New Zealand?

It seems all the places steam comes out of the ground are good places for geothermal. If you have an energy hungry population nearby you have customers for the product you want to sell.

In the UK green fantasists say, "We can invest in geothermal".

To that I say yes. But move to a place where steam comes out of the ground first or you'll most likely lose your investment. I'm looking for realism in the British green movement.