Finland Instructs Nearly a Million Military Reservists

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: DuckforcoveR

The Finnish did quite well out of the War against the USSR in the 40's - they held up the entire Red Army and prevented them over running the country, something no one else managed to do. But as I said, the geography helped.

The Swiss on the other hand have been neutral for centuries, but given their geography and also the fact they technically have the worlds largest Army would mean it would be a tall order to invade and hold.

Besides, my view is that the hardest place to invade is actually Britain. It hasn't been successfully invaded by a foreign power for 949 years

Find me another place on earth who can claim that record!

How about Korea? Even Ghengis Khan couldn't conquer them, and he was damn close to having all of Europe/Asia. Even today the world is hesitant to consider going into North Korea in any real military capacity. Even Japan after they beat China were pretty hands off with the region until WW2 really got into full swing, at which point they couldn't hold the territory.

a reply to: solve

Denmark, New Zealand and Finland are top 3 least corrupted countries in the World. Politicians when caught up has no political future ( remember Vanhanen case ).. When Katainen was a Prime minister sweeping under rug and foul play happened.. what happened to him? He had to resign and now searching his playground in EU ( which is sadly big corruption playground ) Finnish tend to have a good memory and foul play is pretty much political suicide.
2014 Corruption index of the World statistics say different.

sleep-work-Obey that is universal

Biker gangs.. Those are universal phenomena too, and there is no country without criminals.. Universal too and very much connected to urban life, if you go to munipalicities there is no biker gangs.
Southern Finland is not the whole Finland as many in Southern Finland seems to think ( latest elections and whining that Uudenmaan county is forgotten )

a reply to: dollukka

Because Elias Lönnrot who gathered the texts and runes lived at that time.

And why there was no one before Elias Lonrot ? Kalevala is roughly equivalent to Eddas in Scandinavian mythology, yet Eddas were written in runes and somewhat codified long before 19-th century. Please, don't obscure my point, the mere appearance of such man as Elias Lonrot or not appearance before is telling.

I'm not saying that Swedes or Russia have a right to occupy Finland today. I'm asking for a reasonable view of history, Russia was no more vilain than Sweden before. Yes, Russia (USSR) have a not so distant history of trying to invade Finland, but Russia is not an ultimate bad people. In fact as you also agreed Finland was almost independent when it was a buffer zone between Russian Empire and strong Sweden ( it was formally under Tzarist crown, but you are right that in day -to - day life Finland had a very little oppression from Russian overrules)

In WW2 USSR didn't wanted to invade Helsinki, but only to make a buffer zone between them and Germany. A small buffer zone was created and war ended. Yes, it was unlawful from the modern point of view, but if you thinking that USSR couldn't crush Finland if this was the only and main goal, you are mistaken.

a reply to: kitzik

I guess you are Russian and try to find something to make Russian look like saviours ?

This is what it was about

Literacy came to Finland with christianity. Under Swedish rule when finnish bible was published in 1642 was first steps to finnish as a literary language. As you might know finnish language differs a lot from swedish and russian which were the languages taught before in Finland.

Finnish language based on nationalism which started with Russian takeover of Finland 1809. Juteini wrote finnish grammar in 1818 and Lönnrot published finnish Kalevala 1835 and these two were the corner stones of finnish language.

Russians were NOT enthusiastic about it and weakly resisted it as they thought finns were getting away from swedish language and relations, they saw it as a good thing but didn´t see it what it was really about, it was defining finnish identity. Russian was needed in bureaucracy but finnish language strongly took its place and shortly finnish people gained incomparably higher literacy rate than Russians themselves.

a reply to: dollukka

Thank you for your reply. I don't know Finnish history so well if not looking in wikipedia and other sources.

So, though reluctantly, you admitted that Kalevala was written under Russian rule despite the fact that Bible in Finnish language was written almost 200 years before. Of course Russian weren't altruistic, but the fact stands out: the most important piece of Finnish culture wasn't written during Swedish rule. I will be large with you and say they had only about 100 years to write it under Swedish rule ( from about 1642 till circa 1800)

I'm not 100% Russian I just know your strong russophobic views, and sometimes i feel the urge to ask you several questions.
May be this topic wasn't the right place to do it, I apologize.

Of course Finnish and Russian people are different, no doubt about this. Yet, Russian are more Finnish than Swedes lol.
As we know Rus is a hijacked name from Viking/Norman/Sweden invaders of Slavic territory. The ruling class came from Scandinavia and founded Kievan Rus, yet Scandivian rulers were quickly diluted by slavic tribes. So, if we look in Russian history only 2 or 3 generations of rulers of Kievan Rus had Scandinavian names ( Russian Oleg/Olgerd, Igor/Ingvar) later we see mostly slavic names of Konigs/Kings Knyaz in Russian. So, it is probably less than 1% of Scandinavian blood in modern Russian population. But if we look how many Finnish language tribes were assimilated in Russia I think it is safe to say that Russians have like 5% Finnish or close to Finnish blood.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: dollukka

Thank you for your reply. I don't know Finnish history so well if not looking in wikipedia and other sources.

So, though reluctantly, you admitted that Kalevala was written under Russian rule despite the fact that Bible in Finnish language was written almost 200 years before. Of course Russian weren't altruistic, but the fact stands out: the most important piece of Finnish culture wasn't written during Swedish rule. I will be large with you and say they had only about 100 years to write it under Swedish rule ( from about 1642 till circa 1800)

I'm not 100% Russian I just know your strong russophobic views, and sometimes i feel the urge to ask you several questions.
May be this topic wasn't the right place to do it, I apologize.

Of course Finnish and Russian people are different, no doubt about this. Yet, Russian are more Finnish than Swedes lol.
As we know Rus is a hijacked name from Viking/Norman/Sweden invaders of Slavic territory. The ruling class came from Scandinavia and founded Kievan Rus, yet Scandivian rulers were quickly diluted by slavic tribes. So, if we look in Russian history only 2 or 3 generations of rulers of Kievan Rus had Scandinavian names ( Russian Oleg/Olgerd, Igor/Ingvar) later we see mostly slavic names of Konigs/Kings Knyaz in Russian. So, it is probably less than 1% of Scandinavian blood in modern Russian population. But if we look how many Finnish language tribes were assimilated in Russia I think it is safe to say that Russians have like 5% Finnish or close to Finnish blood.

Grammar was made 1818 which was the corner stone of literal finnish. Bible even it was in finnish lacked grammar and was pretty much non working as a guide for sufficent grammar. Bible was translation by Mikael Agricola who grew up in swedish speaking district Pernå. Under swedish rule all issues with law and bureaucracy was handled with swedish and under Russian rule issues were dealt with russian... Russia was no better than Sweden.
Do you understand what is national identity. from those times to today there is a saying in Finland " We are not Swedish and Russians we will not become so let us be Finnish" After Russians took over there were this enlightment going on among finns and it is quite clear finnish people were fed and tired in all oppression from those two countries involved. As i said Russia as well as Sweden were both using oppression tactics towards Finland.

And to so called russophobic claim. We dealt well with Soviet Union we found common ground, now there is nationalism going on in Russia which has quite ugly face and attitude which shows more aggression than co operation, co operation which was benefical to both countries trade etc.. has turned sour.

Im tired of Russian propaganda and i feel sorry for russians as they seem so brainwashed. I believe that things are getting worse in Russia for Russian people by Russian government. If that is russophobia to you, to me it is just common sense.

I am against immigration, people should be helped in their own countries, i am against EU politics and i am against propaganda, i am also against NATO as it would be way too expencive for Finland and would not really serve us ( look what it did to greece ) and NATO has expanded way too much already. I would vote for FennoScandian military co-operation instead of NATO...

a reply to: dollukka

As i said Russia as well as Sweden were both using oppression tactics towards Finland.

You know, I like this sentence better, than your usual only anti Russian stance.

You are friends with Swedes now (more or less) , so why not become a friends with Russia ? It is people of you russophobic views that are the main obstacle. I semi jokingly even proved you that Russian are more Finns in nature than Swedes

a reply to: kitzik

We have been in good terms with all our neighbors, are you suggesting that we should choose one over the other ? Russia just isn´t as co operative as it used to be since Ukraine crisis and what has come from that has been quite demolishing relations between Russia and EU. It is not finnish fault that Russia did what it did in Ukraine, look in the mirror would help a lot.

and back to actual topic.. There is no case here, it is not about russophobia just due all changes in our own military units ( many units have been shut down and fused with others, many military quarter has been closed ) letter were sent so reservists for knowing what unit they would serve to clear things out for them.

originally posted by: kitzik
You are friends with Swedes now (more or less) , so why not become a friends with Russia ?

Because of things like this.

March 2014

Russian President Vladimir Putin ultimately wants to reclaim Finland for Russia, his former economic policy adviser has claimed

www.washingtontimes.com...

Jan 2015

Russian Troops Stationed Near Finnish Border as Putin Begins Move on Arctic

europe.newsweek.com...


If Russia wants countries to be friendly towards them they should probably try to be friendly back.

Very educational thread, I know some basics of Finnish history, learned several things today.

I hope while living in europe I can make it to Finland, looks like an incredibly beautiful place.

On topic, what dollukka says makes perfect sense when you look at it from an organization level.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Very educational thread, I know some basics of Finnish history, learned several things today.

I also prefer more educational threads over reiterating old Russian bashing over and over again.

Most of the news made/fabricated in Western block are serving only one goal - to paint Russia as a threat.
Even over this minor Finnish internal military issue british press will reiterate 100 times more how often russian submarines or planes violating international borders lol. ( and there is zero or close to zero proven violations of borders) But, as you see it again and again, some details get obscured, and it is looking like Russians are just hungry savages waiting to bait some finnish or polish territory. Propaganda doing their job.
Finns themselves saying here that is not such a major thing, though I don't want to belittle it either. So, instead of learning again how bad is Russia because they "annexed" Ukraine you learned some Finnish history

Also, off topic, I want to see how today Eurovision plays out. Russia have some chances to win in the contest. No matter what would be the final results, there is going to be a lot of ugly politicking from both sides. Russia go ! Gagarin in space, Gagarina in Eurovision 2015 !!!

a reply to: kitzik

Keeping facts facts.. International airspace for example, there is a signed agreement of airspace security

According to the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) Convention on International Civil Aviation every country is responsible for ensuring that the country’s military aviation does not cause a danger to civil aviation. The responsibility also applies outside of the country’s borders.

This agreement says clearly that in international airspace transponders need to be tuned on ALWAYS
Keep those transponders on !!! keeping them off sends a message or would you think otherwise ?
If some part keep violating agreements.. what does it look like to you ? Not guilty ?

Eventually if it keeps going on there will be refinement in this agreement making it even more strict, and i am sure this issue will be on the table sooner or later.. I am asking you.. Do you think Russia will sign new more strict agreement on international airspace safety?

We know the facts so please have some respect on that !

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: seagull

The local Geography certainly helps!

But with the Swiss, just bottle them up in their mountain fortresses - they'll run out of Muesli before long! No need to even invade, just camp outside and block all the entrances

Yeah, but if their hardware comms gets taken out, they can bring out their secret weapon...coded yodelling down a Swiss horn!

Yodel - Ay - EEE - Oooo (the ruskies are coming, the ruskies are coming!)

a reply to: stumason

Finland is in the same kind of strategic jam that it was in the early years of WW2. History is repeating. As I type this a rerun of the 30's is playing out in Europe and the same inevitable outcome. The UK best bet is to leave France and Germany to the consequences of appeasing Hitler err I mean Putin.

Chamberlain err I mean Cameron has overseen the reductions in the UK Armed to dangerous levels. The strategic eye of the UK belongs to the west and the Atlantic. Keeping the Atlantic open so the Russian's can't starve out the UK will be key factor in the coming war.

a reply to: xpert11

I wouldn't worry about our decimated armed forces, or our regular police officers being cut to within inches of their lives...we have mummies boy 'special constables' (some of them VERY 'special') manning the beat and the TA weekend warriors leaning how to march in formation...world armies and criminals everywhere are quaking in their boots...

a reply to: dollukka

If some part keep violating agreements.. what does it look like to you ? Not guilty ?

Eventually if it keeps going on there will be refinement in this agreement making it even more strict, and i am sure this issue will be on the table sooner or later.. I am asking you..

I couldn't understand from your comment if there is already a clear prohibition of turning transporders off or a vague notion of "endangering civil airspace", make your mind, I don't know exact wording of this agreement. From your comment it is unclear. If there is no specific clause about transponders, Russia is formally not guilty. And I don't know the facts, and almost no one knows exact facts what is really happening there in airspace, btw I guess It is a close military secret.

What I'm refering to your Russophobia is clearly seen in this your comment. First Russia guilty, and if not yet guilty- they will be guilty by not signing new agreement. And this last part of your comment is a pure speculation, but Russia is already guilty judging by your tone and even may be "secret desire", you want that Russia will be guilty anyway. This I call unreasonable russophobia.

a reply to: kitzik

You are just making assumptions and base of your assumptions is false assumption that all what is in the news and discussed here on ATS comes from big media houses who seems to downplay Russia as a bad entity.. right ?
Wrong assumption.. i read a lot and i read also Russian sites and i have seen this nationalism raising its head in those sites. I also LOVE statistics as they show issues as they are and statistics for example Levada.ru ( autonomous nonprofit organization in Russia ) about Russia and Russians opinions, you can clearly see how opinions have changed in Russia in recent years.

I have never said Russia has violated our airspace, i have only said that they have not had their transponders on as it should.. Wrong assumption again from you.
In other thread where there were a issue in this spring about Russians having military drill close Finnish borders, i said there is nothing there either to worry about as demographics of that place with only one road to finnish border is well observed and if Russians come we will see that in time. So russophobic ? In big Media houses things are over exaggerated and seeing only MSM CNN or whatever news, are not showing what is really going on.. like in this topic

Why not stop whining ( doesn´t look good ) here how badly Russia is treated, friendly advice from me to you is really open your eyes seek data which also can be found in Russia and from Russian sites.. it is actually easy

a reply to: dollukka

I have never said Russia has violated our airspace, i have only said that they have not had their transponders on as it should..

Sorry, but it is you making wrong assumptions. I didn't intended to talk about transponders, it was in the original british article about Russian airspace violations. What i wanted to emphasize is how western media ( in this case british) blurring the lines. I said that western media propagating this "violations" in every possible angle in any slightly related news.
Yet, there is not much of evidences. And when pushed to the wall, they admit, that Russia didn't entered sovereign airspace. But when you see 100 times lines of "almost violation", sometimes violation, sometimes "aggressive behavior" etc,
the normal reaction would be "brainwashing" and this is what is happening.

They didn't speak about transpordes at all. Let's see how it was presented exactly.

Caption "Finland's air force in April said Russian Tupolev Bear bombers had been involved in "unusually intense" activity"

Next sentence in the article - "The air force in recent months has also had to deal with some airspace violations by Russian warplanes."

All very vague and yet the general impression that Russia is guilty beyond any doubt.

I'm not whinning btw , I'm showing to the audience how propaganda works.

a reply to: kitzik

And as living very near military airbase here and my observations are that our fighter jets keeps taking off to duty more often than never before .. so am i lying ?

a reply to: dollukka

And as living very near military airbase here and my observations are that our fighter jets keeps taking off to duty more often than never before .. so am i lying ?

Probably not lying. Why you don't write your own observations from the beginning, but writing about transponders that YOU can't see ?
Rhetoric question.

I'm also not lying when admitting that Russo-Finnish relations are tense at the moment. Yes, I know that overall Russian sentiment towards The West is becoming gloomier and gloomier. I myself was writing about this too. In part it is happening also because of your exaggerated fears over Russia and the issue is snowballing. Both sides are guilty in fabricating propaganda and picking only negative news about each other.

Also
I'm not sure you made this advice as a "really friendly"

friendly advice from me to you is really open your eyes seek data which also can be found in Russia and from Russian sites.. it is actually easy

Let's dissect it. You are thinking that I'm limited to Russian only Internet media ( it is not clear stated , but this is a fair assumption) Yet, it is obvious that I'm using not only Russian media, so why you are making this somewhat humiliating assumption ? Is it friendly advice ? - No.
Things like this can be quite offending for many Russians and you westerners often making such mistakes and after you are wondering why russians are such tough and unfriendly.

Disclosure. I don't live in Russia and never was a Russian citizen, only mighty USSR empire (joke)